Your Perfect NRL

[siv]

Lets be honest with ourselves in a perfect world Illawarra wouldn't be in the NRL, they're basically what the Central Coast is to the north of Sydney but to the south of Sydney in NRL terms, wedged in between two bigger more centralised markets and within an hour or two from live NRL if they really want to see it. Also Calling them Illawarra is really a misnomer because even when the Steelers where around they only really represented Wollongong.

Don't get me wrong it'd be nice from a nostalgia point of view to see the Steelers back in the NRL, but it isn't whats really in the best interests of the NRL or the game as a whole to invest so many resources into a relatively small area that is so close to so many other teams already in the competition.




You know people are constantly asserting that if a club is removed from an area that all that clubs fans and the region as a whole will suddenly become AFL fans, but never once have I seen any evidence to even suggest that there's any significant bleed off from RL to AFL or whatever other sport after a club is lost, and what bleed off there is I think most likely can be attributed to people who already were interested in the AFL/whatever to some degree anyway.
And even when they give examples like after SL they can only show correlation and not causation and ignore plenty of other contributing factors, and even on top of that they can't show that the up swing in support is from ex RL fans jumping on board.

In my opinion it's basically just an idea that somebody chucked out there some time ago (probably a journo in some old opinion peace) that a bunch off people have latched onto because on the surface of it sounds like it could be true, that has been repeated over and over until it's just become accepted as fact in some circles (generally in circles that find it convenient to believe) without any proper study or even just thought being put into it.

You will find the north shore of Sydney did swap over to AFL as a result if the culling of clubs

 

[LESStar58]

Add Perth, Brisbane 2, Central Queensland and Wellington.

 

[Perth Red]

They are ,but they won't be if we do the rationalisation as suggested above.Who will all the fans of the clubs flicked or relocated follow?Seriously champ, it's fair to say fans have more allegiance to their traditional clubs than the game as a whole.

"All the fans"? I doubt it, sure you might get a few but lets be honest after growing up watching RL going to watch an afl game is not a pleasant experience. Much more likely they will just have less interest in RL, however if the NRL actually leads the charge and has a strategy for ensuring that grass roots and especially juniors remain supported in that region, and if one of the remaining clubs proactively fills the void there is no reason that long term the area wouldn't stay strong RL heartland. Brisbane seem to do ok in fighting off AFL with just one club for the whole city. I doubt it requires nine to fight off two afl clubs, especially as you keep telling us AFL is a blip on the Sydney sporting scene.

If the NRl is legit and is going to let clubs stand or fall from now on then their destinies are in their own hands. I can see in years to come some clubs simply wont be able to survive and keep pace but lets see, ideally the NRL will have a back up plan for if and when that happens to ensure the region remains RL connected.

 

[Perth Red]

You will find the north shore of Sydney did swap over to AFL as a result if the culling of clubs

So people from the north shore will cross the bridge to watch an AFL team but not their NRl team, how strange?

 

[taipan]

Lets be honest with ourselves in a perfect world Illawarra wouldn't be in the NRL, they're basically what the Central Coast is to the north of Sydney but to the south of Sydney in NRL terms, wedged in between two bigger more centralised markets and within an hour or two from live NRL if they really want to see it. Also Calling them Illawarra is really a misnomer because even when the Steelers where around they only really represented Wollongong.

Don't get me wrong it'd be nice from a nostalgia point of view to see the Steelers back in the NRL, but it isn't whats really in the best interests of the NRL or the game as a whole to invest so many resources into a relatively small area that is so close to so many other teams already in the competition.




You know people are constantly asserting that if a club is removed from an area that all that clubs fans and the region as a whole will suddenly become AFL fans, but never once have I seen any evidence to even suggest that there's any significant bleed off from RL to AFL or whatever other sport after a club is lost, and what bleed off there is I think most likely can be attributed to people who already were interested in the AFL/whatever to some degree anyway.
And even when they give examples like after SL they can only show correlation and not causation and ignore plenty of other contributing factors, and even on top of that they can't show that the up swing in support is from ex RL fans jumping on board.

In my opinion it's basically just an idea that somebody chucked out there some time ago (probably a journo in some old opinion peace) that a bunch off people have latched onto because on the surface of it sounds like it could be true, that has been repeated over and over until it's just become accepted as fact in some circles (generally in circles that find it convenient to believe) without any proper study or even just thought being put into it.

Then Great Dane I would suggest you spend a little more time in the North Sydney area, and ask why the Bears fans en masse not just a few ,have not switched their loyalties to the Sea Eagles or Roosters,because the ones I met repping, certainly do not.
Most went to ru, some to the AFL.In fact some Rabbitoph fans went to AFL when they were kicked out.
Met a couple from Brisbane on a football tour who followed the Crushers.They were flicked, they told me ,they will not attend Broncos games, and do not attend live games.So who loses out? The code.
I can assure you should the Sharks get flicked ,I'll revert to a Tv viewer on the odd occasion, and certainly have no interest in attending other clubs' matches.

The SAFL have stated they will not be relocating any more teams,Rugby league has axed teams in Sydney and Brisbane ,and amalgamated 4 in Sydney,the latters' crowds since have nowhere near made up the loss.

 

[Pedge1971]

And the AFL applauds that program.Suggesting SL couldn't have done it better.Great entrees to Sydney's West and South.

Yep. Super League would have introduce the Shanghai Sharks and every kid in China would be crazy about the game ....

 

[taipan]

So people from the north shore will cross the bridge to watch an AFL team but not their NRl team, how strange?

Seeing it is far closer from the lower North Shore on a AFL time friendly schedule to the SCG,and especially no NRL games are played at NSO because there is no club,it is not hard to understand.
Would you care to compare the distance from Nth Sydney to say ANZ stadium compared to the SCG?
Of course for you anything is strange, anything that doesn't fit your perpetual whining.

 

[taipan]

"All the fans"? I doubt it, sure you might get a few but lets be honest after growing up watching RL going to watch an afl game is not a pleasant experience. Much more likely they will just have less interest in RL, however if the NRL actually leads the charge and has a strategy for ensuring that grass roots and especially juniors remain supported in that region, and if one of the remaining clubs proactively fills the void there is no reason that long term the area wouldn't stay strong RL heartland. Brisbane seem to do ok in fighting off AFL with just one club for the whole city. I doubt it requires nine to fight off two afl clubs, especially as you keep telling us AFL is a blip on the Sydney sporting scene.

If the NRl is legit and is going to let clubs stand or fall from now on then their destinies are in their own hands. I can see in years to come some clubs simply wont be able to survive and keep pace but lets see, ideally the NRL will have a back up plan for if and when that happens to ensure the region remains RL connected.

OK I'll be more conservative a fair number of fans.As evidenced when the Bearss had 15,000 where are they now?
You're going over the same old same old,wqe have argued about before.
I've stated grassroots first, clubs solvency second, expansion third.I don't know whether the WA sun is slower in getting to the city,as it seems to take an eternity to get the message through.

" You can see in years to come" .Your'e the guy who not that long ago stated"I don't have a crystal ball'.Now the F*ck you have found one, possibly hidden away in the gazebo.
Spare me please.

 

[taipan]

Yep. Super League would have introduce the Shanghai Sharks and every kid in China would be crazy about the game ....

Would they? They stuffed it up and the game as it was.Seriously who actually believed the ET in every China city crap?
The only redeeming fact ,the money from SL saved the club.
The club is now in a situation where it not only owns its ground, but has large development going pn around it, which will help underpin the club.A situation many NRL clubs would like to be in and very little reliance on poker machine monies.

 

[T-Boon]

The Southern Sharks could play 6 games at Shark Park and 6 in Adelaide. They could get the same third party agreement advantages that Brisbane get. Everyone wins.

 

[Stallion]

Taipan is right. Grassroots should be the priority. Even the local rugby leagues are making repeated mistakes. A complete strategy rethink is required.

 

[Perth Red]

OK I'll be more conservative a fair number of fans.As evidenced when the Bearss had 15,000 where are they now?
You're going over the same old same old,wqe have argued about before.
I've stated grassroots first, clubs solvency second, expansion third.I don't know whether the WA sun is slower in getting to the city,as it seems to take an eternity to get the message through.

" You can see in years to come" .Your'e the guy who not that long ago stated"I don't have a crystal ball'.Now the F*ck you have found one, possibly hidden away in the gazebo.
Spare me please.

More people went to NRL games in Sydney last year than when the Bears were in the comp. Who knows how many of the 15k stopped going, went somewhere else, watch the game on TV or don't follow sport at all anymore. Neither you nor I have the data to prove anything. How many afl teams in North Sydney compared to RL teams? How many schools playing AFL compared to RL? How many Tv viewers for each code in that area? How many registered jnrs and grass roots players for each code? These are that facts we would need to decide if culling the Bears did significant damage to RL and significant leg ups to AFL.

Then you have to consider if the losses there are more than made up for by the gains either having less teams in a saturated market has in greater sustainability and vibrancy of the remaining clubs, or that having a free license creates in putting a team somewhere else.

 

[Stallion]

More people went to NRL games in Sydney last year than when the Bears were in the comp. Who knows how many of the 15k stopped going, went somewhere else, watch the game on TV or don't follow sport at all anymore. Neither you nor I have the data to prove anything. How many afl teams in North Sydney compared to RL teams? How many schools playing AFL compared to RL? How many Tv viewers for each code in that area? How many registered jnrs and grass roots players for each code? These are that facts we would need to decide if culling the Bears did significant damage to RL and significant leg ups to AFL.

Then you have to consider if the losses there are more than made up for by the gains either having less teams in a saturated market has in greater sustainability and vibrancy of the remaining clubs, or that having a free license creates in putting a team somewhere else.

The saturated market assumption is wrong! Australia's biggest city and the origins of this code in Australia. Show it some respect!

 

[taipan]

More people went to NRL games in Sydney last year than when the Bears were in the comp. Who knows how many of the 15k stopped going, went somewhere else, watch the game on TV or don't follow sport at all anymore. Neither you nor I have the data to prove anything. How many afl teams in North Sydney compared to RL teams? How many schools playing AFL compared to RL? How many Tv viewers for each code in that area? How many registered jnrs and grass roots players for each code? These are that facts we would need to decide if culling the Bears did significant damage to RL and significant leg ups to AFL.

Then you have to consider if the losses there are more than made up for by the gains either having less teams in a saturated market has in greater sustainability and vibrancy of the remaining clubs, or that having a free license creates in putting a team somewhere else.

I can tell you from my contacts when repping in the area ,rusted on Bear's supporters stopped attending rl games.Some to the Tahs and some to the AFL.About 11 people.
OK one can argue, but that is a just a small sample of the population.But they sure as hell haven't boosted other NRL club's numbers.
You probably don't remember a game at NSO,when the Bears played Manly.21,000 attended.

The juniors in that area have withered away .AFL has a decent grip on atet area and the AFL is now into Private schools there plus new junior clubs.And you're telling me a minimal affect.Pull the other one.

How the hell can you sell a code to juniors with no club.You remove the sharks and see what happens.You are living in a bubble.

SL war ,the Bear's removal, amalgamations,the axing of Souths for a time, all did damage to the code.And for proof, have a look at crowds for the Swans prior to 95 before SL to the period after.
The Herald reduced rl coverage due to News involvement for a start.Many people were turned off.You have no idea of the impact, you had no team that was chopped, amalgamated or threatened with the chop.

If Perth can get 20,000 crowds even when they are down the ladder, and increase the Tv revenues by $200m over 5 years,I'm all ears.And of course if an area let's say Cronulla is axed ,and an A league or AFL moves in to chop away at juniors to further underpin the league's competitor ,where is the advantage?
You have to consider also the extra travel and accommodation costs for a WA team in addition to grants.
Again no one knows what TV contracts will be worth from 2023.With all the different means of accessing games now.

And what would have happened if Souths had never got back?

 

[Perth Red]

OK I'll be more conservative a fair number of fans.As evidenced when the Bearss had 15,000 where are they now?
You're going over the same old same old,wqe have argued about before.
I've stated grassroots first, clubs solvency second, expansion third.I don't know whether the WA sun is slower in getting to the city,as it seems to take an eternity to get the message through.

" You can see in years to come" .Your'e the guy who not that long ago stated"I don't have a crystal ball'.Now the F*ck you have found one, possibly hidden away in the gazebo.
Spare me please.

Blind freddy can see some clubs are fcked barring something dramatic like a housing development or a Hollywood A lister saving them from drowning..

If the NRl was legit about making all 16 clubs sustainable long term they would introduce a variable grant scheme like the AFL. Either club self interest or NRL strategy (lol) seems to be preventing this so clubs will stand or fall on their own, maybe. Or the NRL may just keep taking over ownership or lending more money out when clubs fail, time will tell.

,rusted on Bear's supporters - that's the point though, there wasn't many of them, and certainly not enough to keep the club alive as a stand alone entity in a over saturated market. If there was then there would have been no merger, no relocation and no eventual demise. Those things happened for a reason not just to spite the NS Bears, or the other Sydney clubs that merged.

 

[Perth Red]

The saturated market assumption is wrong! Australia's biggest city and the origins of this code in Australia. Show it some respect!

Mate there is no city in the world that has 14 top flight professional sports teams in it, including ones 4 times the size of Sydney!

 

[Perth Red]

The juniors in that area have withered away .AFL has a decent grip on atet area and the AFL is now into Private schools there plus new junior clubs.And you're telling me a minimal affect.Pull the other one.

How the hell can you sell a code to juniors with no club.You remove the sharks and see what happens.You are living in a bubble.

Ask Brisbane, they seem to do pretty well producing jnrs and top class players with just one club to aspire to.

Links to jnr numbers for Rl and AFL in North Sydney?

NS Bears JRL annual report 2016 seems to suggest kids are not leaving the sport in droves to play other codes. Maybe you are just a little pessimistic or slanting the reality to your argument that Sydney needs more than half the comp just to keep RL relevant?

total 53 teams spanning 8 clubs competing in our district and I am happy to report that we
have had significant growth in the mini league and Mod Footy age groups and we are looking to build on
this in 2017.
35 High Schools within our catchment area through the work that Daniel

Hutton, Ryan Borg and Luke Heckendorf and their team with over 15,000

children being involved in some type of Rugby League interaction in 2016. The

2017 Community Carnival event will aim to be our biggest in history and we

will be working the NRL Development team and our 8 clubs to hold “Come

and Try” programs the same day we do our Community Carnival on Thursday

9th February to encourage children to try our great game and become a Junior

League Player in 2017.

The 2016 North Sydney Development Squads was one our most successful

programs in recent years.


It is pleasing to note that all clubs had


growth in numbers in the age groups from u/6 – u/12, which

provides a solid foundation leading into teenage years.

 

[Perth Red]

If Perth can get 20,000 crowds even when they are down the ladder, ?

Why are you setting a bar for new clubs that 15 of the existing ones have no hope of achieving?

And what would have happened if Souths had never got back?

And what would have happened if they hadn't won lotto and got a Hollywood A lister and his millionaire mate to buy them? They'd be gone or in NRL ownership most likely. They struck gold, like Cronulla, but the chances of it happening for each club are slim. Maybe this new club grant scheme will work and will get them on an even keel, or maybe too many clubs, not enough fans and not enough big $ sponsors will continue to see them in the red, time will tell.

 

[taipan]

Why are you setting a bar for new clubs that 15 of the existing ones have no hope of achieving?

Because I can and because your'e a one team city of 2 million people,the reason your argue for a quick move there.Be thankful I chose 20,000,a figure you keep citing when the NRL plays there.
Especially if Sydney clubs representing a geographical area 5m people by 9 clubs averages 14,000 let's say.

Perhaps I should have suggested your last crowd of 6,000 as being the basis, then you'd chuck a wetty.

The bar : One city teams 20,000 .The Storm are getting there slowly.
Now go on PR rustle up a few relos,visit the mining towns and Monkey Mia,and get those numbers.Your city is screaming for an NRL club, it should be a piece of cake or in your case a Hull pattie.

 

[DiegoNT]

I had a thread a few years ago asking if you were starting an nrl comp from scratch, without pre-existing clubs where would they be. The catch, it had to be 16 clubs. As of right now I'd go.

Townsville ( North queensland)
Central QLD
Brisbane
Brisbane
Gold Coast
Newcastle
Illawarra
Canberra
Penrith
Melbourne
Auckland
Inner sydney
Southern sydney
North shore
West Sydney
Campbelltown