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The Game Future NRL Stadiums part II

Messages
21,880
They won't ,the very reason they are getting a Leagues club refurbishment,retail centre.Long term is to bring Shark Park up to what a stadium should be .
Zero in it for the Sharks at Loftus,anycase the Loftus situation is up in the air.The Loftus Campus does not want to sell ,and the locals are not thrilled.
The Sharks are building eventually a Centre of excellence adjoining the Sthn Stand ,the chances of Loftus IMO are a big fat zero, nil,nada ,blot and anything else that hangs around zilch.

What’s the plan, to use profits from a refurbished leagues club to do up the ground? Not sure that’s realistic.
 

beave

Coach
Messages
15,677
What’s the plan, to use profits from a refurbished leagues club to do up the ground? Not sure that’s realistic.

Why isn’t it realistic mate? Means they won’t be paying tax on the leagues clubs profits if they invest it in the stadium yeah?? I admit I am no accountant or tax expert but that’s how I think it would work. Happy to be corrected.

I know Cowboys Leagues is always upgrading and expanding as they make more money.
 
Messages
21,880
Why isn’t it realistic mate? Means they won’t be paying tax on the leagues clubs profits if they invest it in the stadium yeah?? I admit I am no accountant or tax expert but that’s how I think it would work. Happy to be corrected.

I know Cowboys Leagues is always upgrading and expanding as they make more money.

I don’t think there’s enough money in the leagues club to properly refurbish the stadium.

I’m sure they’ll be able to get some things done, but not bring it up to “where it should be”. Realistically it needs two new stands running down east & western sides, I would’ve thought that’d be $100m minimum.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
What’s the plan, to use profits from a refurbished leagues club to do up the ground? Not sure that’s realistic.

OK I'll spell out what I consider realistic.
The plan is to get a new you beaut Leagues club, with restaurants overlooking the Bay.The club ATM looks tired and hardly a great way to attract crowds inside..
There is also an expected $1m plus rental PA expected from the retail side.
Profit estimates from the sale of current agreed unit sales ,could amount to $50m plus .
In the pipeline plans for a further 200 units plus a Hotel.
You go figure how revenue/profits will increase dramatically.
If the Leagues clubs is refurbished and paid for, money is then available for other improvements such as extension of stands or replace current ET stand.
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,448
OK I'll spell out what I consider realistic.
The plan is to get a new you beaut Leagues club, with restaurants overlooking the Bay.The club ATM looks tired and hardly a great way to attract crowds inside..
There is also an expected $1m plus rental PA expected from the retail side.
Profit estimates from the sale of current agreed unit sales ,could amount to $50m plus .
In the pipeline plans for a further 200 units plus a Hotel.
You go figure how revenue/profits will increase dramatically.
If the Leagues clubs is refurbished and paid for, money is then available for other improvements such as extension of stands or replace current ET stand.
$50m in units sale might mean a profit of $10m, after planning, borrowing, construction and selling costs.Great, but not enough to rebuild half a stadium. $1m in rent per year is two players salaries.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
$50m in units sale might mean a profit of $10m, after planning, borrowing, construction and selling costs.Great, but not enough to rebuild half a stadium. $1m in rent per year is two players salaries.

Um !! $50m min plus(I've heard reports $60m + net profit min,) $1m pa retail rental, plus profit on 200 units and rental income from hotel if DA approved, plus increased profits from a refurbished Leagues club with restaurants overlooking the Bay and a new community of 2-3,000 added next door.

You don't 1understand the club does not pay any development costs, any selling costs, any marketing costs, .In return the developers(who have a financial partner) received the vacant land at no cost, they financed and built the units and will do the same for the retail development.Any construction, planning,borrowing costs are controlled and paid for by the developer.

To buy land like that(zoned residential) with water views and or golf course views ,close to the beaches and with retail centre within walking distance to be available is worth many millions of dollars ,which teh developer did not have to outlay for.

Hence they the developers get the full profits also on the first 300 plus units built out of the 700 plus 1/2 share with the club of the remaining approx 400.These include 1Bd,2Bd 3bd some many with water views and some penthouses.They have been selling in record time to such an extent they are now selling off the plan Stage 3.

Players salaries for a start will have zero to do with that income($1m pa).That's what the new salary campus all about.
NB The Sharks would have made a profit or close to break even,cept for the legal costs associated with ASADA.
If you have revenue and profit, you are then in a position to borrow money down the line (from Lenders)to build stand extensions or even perhaps a knockdown.They see equity in a Licensed Club,retail income on an ongoing basis,cash in the Bank.

When Bruno Cullen former Broncos CEO,was instructed by the NRL to come down to Cronulla a few years back,to audit their books after some debacle ,he commented in his view the club with plans then in place would make the Sharks one of the top five clubs financially in the NRL.His view not mine.

I'm not trying to polish a t*rd.
I see with my own eyes the unit blocks completed and now lived in, the huge prices paid, and the demand is still there.
I know of two couples who have sold their props ,I guess for well over the $1.5m mark and bought in to the development.
Many older people within the Shire are downsizing, flogging off their homes for an average min $1.5m.Quite a few are buying into Woolooware shores.
Young ones buying in also.
And yes speculators buying and selling off the plan.
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,448
Um !! $50m min plus(I've heard reports $60m + net profit min,) $1m pa retail rental, plus profit on 200 units and rental income from hotel if DA approved, plus increased profits from a refurbished Leagues club with restaurants overlooking the Bay and a new community of 2-3,000 added next door.

You don't 1understand the club does not pay any development costs, any selling costs, any marketing costs, .In return the developers(who have a financial partner) received the vacant land at no cost, they financed and built the units and will do the same for the retail development.Any construction, planning,borrowing costs are controlled and paid for by the developer.

To buy land like that(zoned residential) with water views and or golf course views ,close to the beaches and with retail centre within walking distance to be available is worth many millions of dollars ,which teh developer did not have to outlay for.

Hence they the developers get the full profits also on the first 300 plus units built out of the 700 plus 1/2 share with the club of the remaining approx 400.These include 1Bd,2Bd 3bd some many with water views and some penthouses.They have been selling in record time to such an extent they are now selling off the plan Stage 3.

Players salaries for a start will have zero to do with that income($1m pa).That's what the new salary campus all about.
NB The Sharks would have made a profit or close to break even,cept for the legal costs associated with ASADA.
If you have revenue and profit, you are then in a position to borrow money down the line (from Lenders)to build stand extensions or even perhaps a knockdown.They see equity in a Licensed Club,retail income on an ongoing basis,cash in the Bank.

When Bruno Cullen former Broncos CEO,was instructed by the NRL to come down to Cronulla a few years back,to audit their books after some debacle ,he commented in his view the club with plans then in place would make the Sharks one of the top five clubs financially in the NRL.His view not mine.

I'm not trying to polish a t*rd.
I see with my own eyes the unit blocks completed and now lived in, the huge prices paid, and the demand is still there.
I know of two couples who have sold their props ,I guess for well over the $1.5m mark and bought in to the development.
Many older people within the Shire are downsizing, flogging off their homes for an average min $1.5m.Quite a few are buying into Woolooware shores.
Young ones buying in also.
And yes speculators buying and selling off the plan.
So Cronulla will be the richest sporting club in Australia? How much are they talking?
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
6,645
Just out of interest - does anyone know how the Sharks came to own their own stadium? It is a very unique situation in Australian sport.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
So Cronulla will be the richest sporting club in Australia? How much are they talking?

Nope.Just one of the wealthiest in the NRL.
No one can compete with the likes of Collingwood.

Won't know the full details till all sales are completed, new D/A approved and completed for an extra 200 units and hotel, retail development completed.
The figures I've mentioned are minimums .I mean an extra 200 units could mean another $20m profit to the club.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,800
So Cronulla will be the richest sporting club in Australia? How much are they talking?

Not close but they will at least be sustainable which will be a novelty for them. If that new stadium gets built and they shift there, selling the rest of the land off will certainly put them in a long term healthy position AND sort out their stadium issue. Not convinced they will ever have enough in the bank to throw the $120mill plus Shark park needs spending on it, unless the refurbed leagues club is getting a sht load more pokie licenses then the profits and input from the LC will remain relatively low. When you look at big LC revenue the vast majority is from poor saps feeding the pokies, not food and drink from patronage.
 
Messages
21,880
That’s the problem, they might be able to tart up shark park a bit, but in another 10-15 years you’re in the same position again.

To me investing as much of that money as possible would be in the better long term interests of the club, and if loftus somehow got built, then move there. Owning a ground obviously has its positives but it’s not all gravy, upkeep is a bitch & just getting it up to standard will cost huge amounts.

If there’s more residents down at woolooware that’ll be better for the leagues club anyway. Regular turnover is better than short term sugar hits.
 

Stormwarrior82

Juniors
Messages
1,036
That’s the problem, they might be able to tart up shark park a bit, but in another 10-15 years you’re in the same position again.

To me investing as much of that money as possible would be in the better long term interests of the club, and if loftus somehow got built, then move there. Owning a ground obviously has its positives but it’s not all gravy, upkeep is a bitch & just getting it up to standard will cost huge amounts.

If there’s more residents down at woolooware that’ll be better for the leagues club anyway. Regular turnover is better than short term sugar hits.

I personally think that the Hong Kong guy is all show and his perported $300mil stadium build is to make the bid sound better and get it across the line.

Also it’s interesting that the southern expansion chairman is none other than Morris leema who just recently was elected as a independent to the Nrl bulldogs board by peponis. It makes sense that a deal will be done with sharks, Kogarah and wooloongong stadiums so the bid team can reach as many juniors as possible. Makes no sense to pigeon hole themselves in one spot in just cronullas area.

I’m sure there are plenty of ways to monetize a stadium build. And for starters there could be 2 stadiums being knocked down that could have quality left over pieces.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
I personally think that the Hong Kong guy is all show and his perported $300mil stadium build is to make the bid sound better and get it across the line.

Also it’s interesting that the southern expansion chairman is none other than Morris leema who just recently was elected as a independent to the Nrl bulldogs board by peponis. It makes sense that a deal will be done with sharks, Kogarah and wooloongong stadiums so the bid team can reach as many juniors as possible. Makes no sense to pigeon hole themselves in one spot in just cronullas area.

I’m sure there are plenty of ways to monetize a stadium build. And for starters there could be 2 stadiums being knocked down that could have quality left over pieces.

Woolongong won't accept anybody but the Wolves, not even their juniors leagues and clubs...

Any talk of a Sydney soccer club taking Woolongong or Canberra (yes we have supposedly been part of the "southern expansion" at different times as well) on as an area is all talk no substance.
 
Messages
21,880
I personally think that the Hong Kong guy is all show and his perported $300mil stadium build is to make the bid sound better and get it across the line.

I agree, it seems a massive long shot.


I’m sure there are plenty of ways to monetize a stadium build. And for starters there could be 2 stadiums being knocked down that could have quality left over pieces.

Don’t agree here.

ANZ stadium hosted a lot of big events, 2-3 regular NRL teams and would typically make 10-20 million per year.

A club ground is only going to have a few club teams, hardly anything outside of that. Even if it was run really well I doubt they’d make much money at all. A few million maybe. That’s a really small return on a $300m investment.

In terms of re-using some of the things from ANZ & Allianz, they might be possible, but I could see ANZ re-using some things for themselves.
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,761
Just out of interest - does anyone know how the Sharks came to own their own stadium? It is a very unique situation in Australian sport.

In 1966-67 Cronulla was playing out of Sutherland Oval home of their former Cronulla-Caringbah self

When they won admission the local council gave them vacant council land (or swamp) to use to develop and promote junior and senior rugby league

How the council let it be rezoned for flats and units is the real mystery
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
6,645
In 1966-67 Cronulla was playing out of Sutherland Oval home of their former Cronulla-Caringbah self

When they won admission the local council gave them vacant council land (or swamp) to use to develop and promote junior and senior rugby league

How the council let it be rezoned for flats and units is the real mystery

Thanks! Interesting stuff and as it turns out a lucky and (possibly) life-saving turn of events for the club 50 years later.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Not close but they will at least be sustainable which will be a novelty for them. If that new stadium gets built and they shift there, selling the rest of the land off will certainly put them in a long term healthy position AND sort out their stadium issue. Not convinced they will ever have enough in the bank to throw the $120mill plus Shark park needs spending on it, unless the refurbed leagues club is getting a sht load more pokie licenses then the profits and input from the LC will remain relatively low. When you look at big LC revenue the vast majority is from poor saps feeding the pokies, not food and drink from patronage.

You need to check with Cullen,and latest sales and proposals for the site.

All clubs should be sustainable even with the 130% grant of salary cap.Sharks hardly isolated on that aspect.

The Leagues club is a tired old show, and will get a big refurbishment with new restaurants with water views.If you have suddenly 3,000 people living within spitting distance, you have a small suburb at your doorstep.You don't attract decent patronage to a place,if it's a tad rundown.
Cronulla shopping centre on weekends especially night is a car park.

If the club secures DA approval for another 200 units plus a hotel, think they'll do more than OK>

It will also be a novelty of Perth get in.
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/act...out-canberra-stadium-ais-20180321-h0xr5a.html

ACT government to meet with federal government about Canberra Stadium, AIS


ACT sports minister Yvette Berry will meet with her federal counterpart to help decide the future of Canberra Stadium in the coming weeks.

The future of the aging facility is still up in the air, with the federal government yet to decide its plans for the Australian Institute of Sport and its facilities, which included Canberra Stadium.

A new national sports plan is currently being worked on and could be finalised in conjunction with the federal budget announcement in about May.

The ACT government was also weighing up their options now that they're leasing Canberra Stadium off the federal government for about $350,000 per year.

One option was for the ACT to buy Canberra Stadium and then either refurbish it or knock it down and build a new stadium in Civic.

Berry will meet with new federal sports minister Bridget McKenzie to discuss the issue and how they can do what's best for the ACT community.

The federal government has assured her they wouldn't do anything without discussing it with the ACT government first.

"I'm getting a meeting organised to catch up on where it's up to with the new federal minister and the sports commission to find out where it's up to from their perspective," Berry told Fairfax Media.

"We're still waiting to hear what's their plans for the place ... I think they're still figuring out what they want to do with the place.

"In the meantime we need it, so we'll just have to work with them and work out what's best for the ACT community."

She did raise concerns it wasn't a priority for the federal government.

Berry felt there was a lot for McKenzie to get her head around in her new role after taking over from predecessor Greg Hunt.

As part of the new national sports plan, the federal government is considering scrapping their controversial Winning Edge program.

"[She] hasn't seemed very enthusiastic with any haste around this," Berry said.

"I think there's a lot for them to consider as well - around the future of the sports commission, the AIS more generally, the whole Olympic Winning Edge story ... and how the AIS fits into all that."

While the Canberra Raiders and ACT Brumbies won't be getting a new venue anytime soon, the 40-year-old Canberra Stadium has had some minor upgrades.

As part of the facility's annual review with both the NRL and Super Rugby teams, they've installed heat and ice baths in the change rooms to keep up to date with modern stadia.

It means the Raiders and Brumbies can now do their recovery in their own changerooms straight after the game and don't have to use the AIS's facilities.

"It was one thing the Raiders and Brumbies brought up that would add value to their programs ... and we were happy to do it," Canberra Stadium operations manager Matt Elkins said.

Meanwhile, Elkins was confident they had the parking capacity to support both the Raiders' game against the New Zealand Warriors at Canberra Stadium on Saturday as well as the Relay For Life at the AIS Track next door.

He said they'd coped with it for the last two years and could utilise the University of Canberra in conjunction with shuttle buses if required.

"It does mean more people in the precinct, which can slow things down a little bit at times, but we haven't seen dramatic impact over the last couple of years," Elkins said.

"We're pretty comfortable. On a good match day, Brumbies or Raiders, it does fill up, but we also have other mechanisms in place when that happens for overflow options."
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/roy-column-on-stadia-20180320-p4z593.html

Seven reasons why the economics of the new Sydney stadiums stacks up


Three of Australia’s four football codes are played on rectangular grounds and their headquarters are all in Sydney – NRL, Rugby Australia and FFA.

Sydney, with its biggest stadium (Homebush) circular and its next biggest (Moore Park) 30 years old, is already losing premier matches to other capital cities with superior facilities.

That’s the big picture summary in support of the NSW Government’s now vacillating decision to pull down both stadiums and spend $2.5 billion building new ones.

Yet the arguments against this have degenerated to the publication of social media comments, such as the arrogant response to South Sydney’s Tom Burgess’s support for the rebuilds: “As soon as Brad Fittler has [leading economist] Saul Eastlake wearing the No 1 NSW Jersey I’ll listen to Tom Burgess on economics.”

Nothing in the current debate has angered the rugby league community more than this elitist tweet.

While Burgess may not have studied Economics, he has played in stadiums and would know something of the energy players draw from the crowd.

What follows is my counter to those arguments from the perspective of someone who did major in Economics at university.

1. "The money should be parcelled around the state in grants for facilities to aid grassroots sport."

This is reminiscent of much poorly managed aid to third world projects. Who will maintain the dressing sheds and ovals when the investment stops? Cash strapped councils? What is the value captured by the investment, other than the improved fitness of the marginal youth who use the new facilities. Governments would find it more effective to ban kids obsessed with electronic games on sunny days.

2. "The $2.5b should be invested in schools and hospitals."

The NSW Government is cash rich and has already budgeted for the stadia twice, via the sell off of poles and wires and the $2.6b sale of the land titles registry. The money is available for schools, hospitals and stadia. As John Quayle, chairman of Venues in Western Sydney, says, “This is a once in a lifetime opportunity.”

3. "The economic benefit figures don’t stack up."

It has been frustrating extracting numbers from the government on the impact to NSW of hosting big events, including concerts, in the city stadia, other than data which says the tourism and events industry contributed $33.2 billion in 2015-16 to the state’s economy. Some value is non quantifiable. It is, as former Victorian Premier, Jeff Kennett said with regard to Melbourne’s integrated sporting and cultural precinct, “It’s why Melburnians love living there.”

The NRL conservatively estimates the economic impact of hosting one grand final and one State of Origin match in Sydney in each of the past 25 years to be $1.7 billion ($68m a year at original prices). John O’Neill says of his 2007 to 2010 term as chairman of Events NSW, “Our documents indicate that we planned to invest $1.3m in Bledisloe against an anticipate return of $7.1m. Our evaluation criteria were very narrow, with none of the multipliers that would normally be applied. The economic impact would have been many multiples of $7.1m for just one game.”

These co-called multiplier benefits are not so much the pump priming creations of Keynesian economics, or Rudd’s pink batts. They are the synergies and excitement that come from multiple opportunities for recreation, work, sport, and cultural activities when there is access to integrated facilities, such that total costs across all activities are lowered, people attracted to attend, media to cover and invest, and liveability to be enhanced.

4. "Major sporting bodies, such as the AFL and NRL, don’t pay tax and should therefore build their own stadia."

These peak sports bodies are non profit organisations. All profits are distributed, most to clubs, many of which make a loss, even if there are large community benefits. To compare Australia’s exemption status to the taxes paid by US sports is ludicrous. Of the 32 NRL franchises, 31 are privately owned by billionaires who write losses off against their other profit making businesses. All major stadiums in Australia, other than the AFL owned Etihad Stadium, are owned by state governments who charge the tenants hefty rents.

The Victorian Government has budgeted to spend approximately $200m on improvements to Etihad, with most of the money spent on bringing seating closer to the sidelines to enhance the experience of fans. The Victorian Government sees it as “relationship building” with its major code. Etihad will host, in August next year, the United States’ best basketball players in a match against Australia.

5. "There is nothing wrong with the existing stadiums."

Technological developments mean the life of a stadium in the United States is approximately 30 years, the age of Allianz and just over half the existing life of ANZ. According to Quayle, 80% of the content of Sydney’s sporting events is in rectangular stadiums.

If Sydney does not have a rectangular stadium suitable for seating 75,000 people, it will never host a major international sporting event. O’Neill, a former ARU chief executive, recalls, “Kennett successfully convinced us to take the Bledisloe to the MCG in 1997/8. A 92,000 crowd, compared to 42,000 at the Sydney Football Stadium. We went to Homebush in 2000 and created the current world record crowd of 110,000. The 2003 RWC was a financial bonanza for Sydney and NSW, with a final, two semis and a play off, all at Homebush and 83,000 for all games.” Sydney will never win another RWC until it has a rectangular stadium consistent with World Rugby guidelines.

6. "Let’s compromise and build just one stadium."

If the decision is ANZ, the Roosters, Waratahs and Sydney FC supporters will claim their stadium is already antiquated. If the decision is Allianz, it will benefit rugby union because its fans predominantly live in the eastern suburbs and north shore. But they won’t ever see a RWC in Australia. It will suit the AFL because they already have, courtesy of the taxpayer, a renovated SCG for the Swans, a boutique stadium at Homebush for the Giants and ANZ will retain its circular shape for the big games when the AFL expects to dominate the city.

But the Roosters are the only NRL club to gain. The new light rail link from Central to Moore Park may make Allianz more accessible to Dragons fans but they currently prefer Homebush because it is an easier trip by car or train. Sydney is moving westward and Transport NSW says 60% of the visitors to ANZ stadium come via rail. The numbers will increase when the Parramatta to Homebush light rail link is completed.

7. "If stadiums generated the revenue the NSW Government says, private companies would have invested in them."

The management rights to ANZ stadium was controlled by a company, partly owned by former AFL chairman, Mike Fitzpatrick. When the Baird Government sought to take control of the stadium to re-configure it to suit the rectangular codes, it bought the management rights back from Fitzpatrick and company for approximately $200m.

By the time ANZ is eventually rebuilt, driverless vehicles will be here, offering complementary systems such as an autonomous phone bookable car (sharing) systems, leading to increased stadium memberships and reduced traffic congestion. There will be broad use of shared systems with fewer smarter and even fun cars doing more trips with more passengers per trip. This also offers new finances and lower costs, with public/private partnership(PPP) transport and event opportunities with electronic passes and codes for discounts via clubs and stadia.

The new transport technologies mean the relative disadvantage the Harbour City faces in not being able to have the North-South-East-West matrix and radial transport systems that benefit Melbourne, NYC, Paris and London for example, will now be less of a disadvantage due to an efficient distributed system, a matter now being analysed by Transport NSW.
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
Yet the arguments against this have degenerated to the publication of social media comments, such as the arrogant response to South Sydney’s Tom Burgess’s support for the rebuilds: “As soon as Brad Fittler has [leading economist] Saul Eastlake wearing the No 1 NSW Jersey I’ll listen to Tom Burgess on economics.”

Nothing in the current debate has angered the rugby league community more than this elitist tweet.
lol

a pot shot at hanky head
 

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