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1st Test: New Zealand v England at Eden Park, Auckland, March 22-26, 2018

Das Gupta

Juniors
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977
How dare the Poms capitulate so early yesterday. We could have had a rain delay so I could have seen it later when I finished work.
Poms got what they deserve moving Stokes up to 5 and still playing Moeen.
 

JJ

Immortal
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31,800
Really good delivery to get Williamson - fine innings, I didn't see it all, but in difficult conditions I don't recall a chance
 

Mr Angry

Not a Referee
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51,791
Their are 4 standout batsmen right now.

ABDV, Smith, Williamson and Kholi.

Anyone else is more than a step behind.
 

Tommy Smith

Referee
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21,344
Is Williamson the Kiwis best ever batsman?

I know there's a few standouts from way back. And then you have Crowe who was simply glorious in a great era of pacemen.

But Kane's resume is becoming hard to ignore. Give it a few more year and there'll be no doubt imo.
 

Tommy Smith

Referee
Messages
21,344
Root had a poor Ashes, but I think he is in that group

Amla is the one that's fallen away
Root's 50 to 100 conversion rate is almost Stephen Fleming-esque.

That's what makes him a clear rung below atm in Tests.

ABs conversion rate isn't great either but it's crucial to remember that he has spent most of his career batting at no.6 which makes the stat meaningless for him.
 

JJ

Immortal
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31,800
Is Williamson the Kiwis best ever batsman?

I know there's a few standouts from way back. And then you have Crowe who was simply glorious in a great era of pacemen.

But Kane's resume is becoming hard to ignore. Give it a few more year and there'll be no doubt imo.
He will be, but personally I think it's too early, and our greats from earlier generations (Donnelly and Dempster) didn't play much test cricket given only the Poms would play us - Glenn Turner also had an abbreviated test career and is in the discussion, and then Crowe...

I imagine it comes down to Donnelly, Crowe or Williamson - with Turner, Taylor, Dempster and Sutcliffe a bit behind

As Ritchie used to say, all you could do was be in the elite in your era - Williamson, Crowe, Donnelly, and Turner were all that...
 

Tommy Smith

Referee
Messages
21,344
He will be, but personally I think it's too early, and our greats from earlier generations (Donnelly and Dempster) didn't play much test cricket given only the Poms would play us - Glenn Turner also had an abbreviated test career and is in the discussion, and then Crowe...

I imagine it comes down to Donnelly, Crowe or Williamson - with Turner, Taylor, Dempster and Sutcliffe a bit behind

As Ritchie used to say, all you could do was be in the elite in your era - Williamson, Crowe, Donnelly, and Turner were all that...
No Hamish Marshall or Lou Vincent?
 

AlwaysGreen

Immortal
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47,957
Well played Kane, a fine batsman.

The best kiwi bat ever?

That's a bit like being crowned the best Adelaide Ram ever.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Well played Kane, a fine batsman.

The best kiwi bat ever?

That's a bit like being crowned the best Adelaide Ram ever.

That's offensive. No way Nicholls makes the Adelaide Rams nor even South Australia Cricket XI greatest ever.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Bone dry where I am, 15 to 20 mins drive from the ground.

Edit - rain and winds where I am now :(
 
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Timbo

Moderator
Staff member
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20,272
He will be, but personally I think it's too early, and our greats from earlier generations (Donnelly and Dempster) didn't play much test cricket given only the Poms would play us - Glenn Turner also had an abbreviated test career and is in the discussion, and then Crowe...

I imagine it comes down to Donnelly, Crowe or Williamson - with Turner, Taylor, Dempster and Sutcliffe a bit behind

As Ritchie used to say, all you could do was be in the elite in your era - Williamson, Crowe, Donnelly, and Turner were all that...

Turner also had a stellar career in county cricket at a time when a lot of counties had a West Indian quick or two up their sleeve.
 
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ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
The Crowe vs Kane debate is often raised by NZ media, more so than is necessary in my opinion. Crowe was the best test batsman in the world between 1985 to 1991*. KW will not likely replicate this feat. But it doesn't mean that he will not have the better career for NZC. The eras have changed. There was no Safrica then, SL's first high quality batsman was de Silva who peaked in the 1990's, and India were not regularly building up batting line ups of sheer class at that stage that they do now. Crowe only had to beat off Border and Miandad as Viv was shrinking in this time from the colossus he was in the 1970's. Outshining Gooch and Gower, is not like attempting to outshine all of Sangakarra, Amla, ABDV, Kohli, Root and Smith for any 5 to 6 years.

In this time, Crowe combined with Hadlee gave NZ more of the stellar test highlights than KW has. But a lot of those were stellar because they were the first time NZ beat an opposition, or beat it away. But there is no Hadlee type for NZ at present, and at times, KW's efforts have been overshadowed by Taylor or BMac, when they were stellar in themselves. Crowe had Wright and later Jones in support.

As a NZC fan, I just hope we get a full career out of KW, not plagued and cut short by injuries like Crowe's last few years were. Crowe's highlights reel is very impressive of wins and elegant stroke making full of extended poses on the shots, but KW's consistency and low profile approach often gets less attention, such as his 4th innings 100 to seal what should have been an easy win against a weak Sri Lanka team, but top order wickets fell far too regularly. That isn't celebrated like Crowe's efforts vs Australia or WI in 1985-87, and nor should it be. But KW sealed off the win, without much fuss or bother. KW scores runs, he doesn't do pomp and fanfare. He may even be doing himself a disservice, if he turned himself into a brand like Crowe did, or Kohli has done now, he may make a bit more coin and gain more international recognition for himself. But that's not Kane's style even if NZC's current biggest self promoter BMac was referring to Kane as "the King".

For me, I hope the debate turns to what does KW have to do to outshine RJ Hadlee as NZ's best test player ever. I don't mind if people prefer Crowe, though, he left an indelible legacy of a lot of success, in a fairly short career, and played with phenomenal style, elegance and tactical intelligence, most known for his countering techniques of top bowlers like playing inside Wasim Akram. But his career is over, and KW should now be entering his own peak batting phase at 27 years of age now, if NZ can get a few more regularly scheduled tests, 4 in 18 months just isn't good enough.

Turner's not even in the debate for me, though. Maybe if he had played for NZ for 5 more seasons he may have been. Especially with RJ Hadlee on the rise then, but despite his 100's in each innings vs Australia, and his wildly impressive WI tour in the 1970's (albeit before the WI four prong pace attack), his career is more full of what ifs as against contributions for NZC. But he was firmly in Gavaskar's shadow, Boycott's too. And possibly not even clear of Greenidge just as contemporary openers. Let alone the Barry Richards conundrum. Before LLoyd, Miandad, or heavyweights like Viv or G Chappel even come into discussion for Turner's era. Turner was a great batsman from NZ, one of few ever ranked #1, and a worthy contender if not member of any ATG NZ XI team, but not our greatest ever batsman.

*http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/story/978067.html
 
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JJ

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Crowe's highest ranking on the retrospective ICC ratings was 3 in 1993, he doesn't feature in the 100 highest tankings, Turner and Williamson both do, Turner (1973) and Williamson (2015) were both #1

Turner is definitely in the debate, ridiculous to suggest he's not he maligned for various peripheral reasons- for me it's between the three of them and perhaps Donnelly, and I am comfortable that we don't (and possible never will) have a clear best ever bat - TBH everyone except Australia (Bradman), Zimbabwe (Flower) and perhaps India (Tendulkar) are in the same boat.

Hadlee very unlikely to be challenged as the greatest cricketer IMO, but Kane is possibly the one

For the record I am a huge Crowe fan, he was a special player, no mistake
 
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ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
Crowe's highest ranking on the retrospective ICC ratings was 3 in 1993, he doesn't feature in the 100 highest tankings, Turner and Williamson both do, Turner (1973) and Williamson (2015) were both #1

Turner is definitely in the debate, ridiculous to suggest he's not he maligned for various peripheral reasons- for me it's between the three of them and perhaps Donnelly, and I am comfortable that we don't (and possible never will) have a clear best ever bat - TBH everyone except Australia (Bradman), Zimbabwe (Flower) and perhaps India (Tendulkar) are in the same boat.

Hadlee very unlikely to be challenged as the greatest cricketer

Fine, lets look at Turner's highlights:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...d-test-australia-tour-of-new-zealand-1973-74/

The 100 in each innings against an attack of Walker and Dymock, with G CHappel at first change in the 2nd innings, and Mallet as the spinner. Yes, Aus played only bowled 3 front line bowlers in both innings with Dougie Walters bowling 7 overs in the first innings at first change. Perhaps OKeefe was injured without bowling a ball.

The 2 double tons in the WI in 1972:

Just look at how weak the WI bowling attack was with Gibbs only playing in 1 of the 2 matches: this isn't Holding, Roberts, Garner and Marshall.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...test-new-zealand-tour-of-west-indies-1971-72/

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...test-new-zealand-tour-of-west-indies-1971-72/

So, with all respect JJ, what should convince me that Turner was arguably NZ's best batsman ever, because those are his 4 most famous big scores from 7 centuries total. His county cricket career?
 
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JJ

Immortal
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31,800
Fine, lets look at Turner's highlights:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...d-test-australia-tour-of-new-zealand-1973-74/

The 100 in each innings against an attack of Walker and Dymock, with G CHappel at first change, and Mallet as the spinner. Yes, Aus played only bowled 3 front line bowlers in both innings.

The 2 double tons in the WI in 1972:

Just look at how weak the WI bowling attack was with Gibbs only playuing in 1 of the 2 matches: this isn't Holding, Roberts, Garner and Marshall.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...test-new-zealand-tour-of-west-indies-1971-72/

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...test-new-zealand-tour-of-west-indies-1971-72/

So, with all respect JJ, what should convince me that Turner was arguably NZ's best batsman ever, because those are 4 of 7 of his most famous 100's? His county cricket career?


I said he's in the debate - that's all - like many of our earlier cricketers (albeit for different reasons) his test career was limited (Donnelly, Dempster, Cowie) or in Grimmett's case not for NZ... So I think we need to look at the #1 ranking, the 100 first class centuries, and actually just have a look at him bat, plus regardless of who the bowlers were he scored runs in events that were very important to us - there is not a doubt in my mind he was a great batsman, it's a great shame he didn't continue his test career because then this wouldn't be a discussion - like Crowe he was technically correct, like Williamson insatiable for runs - he ends at #3 for me (with Donnelly), but I prefer the idea that there is a group, none of them are head and shoulders above the rest (as I said this is the case in most countries), and Williamson is the one that will be able to separate himself satistically through weight of runs and centuries, like Hadlee has done... I guess I like to weight people from the previous generations more highly, Cowie for me is likely the second best pace bowler, and his record is incredible but a short career
 

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