3rd Test: Aust vs Sth Africa @ SCG (2-6 January 2006)

[Manu Vatuvei]

Willow, I honestly don't get it.

 

[Tommy Smith]

It's probably thoroughly unnecessarily for me to bring up this old debate, but fk it.

How is Ponting not in the same group as Lara and Sachin?

To be honest i think its an era issue. Throughout the 90's, scoring was much more difficult than it is today. And that is backed up by almost every stat which show that scoring has increased a hell of a lot. And throughout the 90's, Sachin and Lara stood above the rest and came up with many astonishing acheivements despite all the world class bowlers.

So far the 2000's have been defined by high scoring. It seems that 4 or 5 batsmen score over 1000 runs every year; Kallis has averaged around 75 over 3 years and the likes of Ponting, Dravid and Lara have also averaged 60 odd for a few years which is just unheard of in years gone by. Hayden has over 1000 runs in 5 straightt years which simply would be impossible in the 90's. I would also hazzard a guess that the list of highest run-scorers in a year would be stacked with performances from the 2000's. Ponting has 1500 runs twice, Vaughan has 1400 odd, Langer has 1400 odd, Lara, Trescothick and a few others are also right up there on the list. To create a comparison, Steve Waugh has made 1000 runs in a year once at most, but if he played his prime years in the 2000's i reckon he'd be on the list atleast 3 or 4 times by now.

Then there's all the newcomers like Smith and Sehwag who are scoring ton after ton after ton and averaging over 50 with ease. They'll both likely end up with over 10'000 test runs and 40 odd centuries which is purely reflective of the era they bat in rather than there added ability over the likes of Mark Waugh and Gary Kirsten who played less matches against better bowlers on pitches not entirely made for tv revenue. Are the likes of Smith/Sehwag better than the likes of Kirsten, Anwar and Mark Waugh? Certainly very debatable, but statistics will show they're miles ahead.

I suppose my point is that its still very hard to compare players even if their careers have overlapped. The mind boggles how many runs Sachin/Lara could have made over their careers if their prime years occurred in the middle of this decade.

Ponting will end his career as one of the greats. But when making comparisons it would be better to compare him to the other run-machines who played their best years in the 2000's - Kallis, Hayden, Dravid and maybe Smith and Sehwag in future years.

You wouldnt begrudge Punter of a place alongside Lara and Sachin, especially at careers end, but i suppose many people will say the first two have the added crediblilty of being the pre-eminent superstars of the 90's as well as the 2000's. And conversely some may reflect upon the fact that Ponting only averaged mid-to-early 40's in the 90's. But ofcourse some will say he had yet to reach his peak (although it should be noted that Sahcin and Lara were instant superstars who have averaged 50 odd from almost day one in the 90's).

To sum up, im sure Ponting and maybe Dravid will finish their careers in the pantheon of greats alongside Lara and Sachin...but thats where it stops, as in i dont reckon you can fairly rank one over the other because of the huge changes the game has seen from the late 90's to mid-2000's in terms of run scoring.

 

[SirShire]

I still think Sachin is overrated. Going off stats for this one, but aren't the vast majority of his test runs scored in India??

IMO the greatest bats from the 90s would be S Waugh and Lara. At the rate Ponting is going now, he will be there.

But Tommy, I can't fully agree with the argument that it is easier to score runs. Up until now and in the early parts of the 00s, there have been plenty of quality bowlers doing the circuits. Warne, McGrath, Flintoff recently, Kumble, Pollock, Ntini, Shoaib (if you wish), Murali (if you're Sanjane), Vettori. I don't know if scoring is any easy due to the bowlers doing the trap, but I dare say that the quality of batsmen now is much better than I recally of in the mid-late 90s.

 

[El Diablo]

he just doesn't like Ponting and is having a sook

 

[UndertakerMike]

I note there are No WI bowlers listed there.

 

[SirShire]

Windies have been sending down pies since the retirement of Curtley Ambrose and Courtney Walsh. I barely even remember the names of their opening bowlers. Lara is the backbone of that team, his class alone brings them up a level.

 

[Balmain_Boy]

There's no doubt scoring is a lot higher than it has been previously. It would be interesting to know what the core reason for that is; Are the bowlers worse, the pitches different or are the bats quite simply better?

Tommy is right though, Lara and Tendulkar have been the 2 of the best batsmen in the world for a bloody long time. Ponting seems to be the heir apparent. If he maintains his exceptional form for the next 5 years he'll no doubt be regarded their equal.

 

[ozbash]

that was probably the best display you,d see by an individual in 1 game for a long time.

that same individual had had the noose placed around his neck by a lot of his countrymen on this forum since the England tour last year.

funny game cricket.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

My good pal Nalin pointed out to me recently that Ponting has averaged 70 over his last 52 tests (a number of tests deliberately chosen because it's how many the Don played.) Jacques Kallis, according to cricinfo, has averaged 69 from his last 50 tests.

This sort of proves two points- on one hand, you are dead right about Ponting and Kallis scoring far more heavily in roughly the second half of their careers to this point. The second point imo is that you can't underestimate just how brilliantly these players have performed. To average 70 over a 50 test period is ridiculously good.

Interestingly, Rahul Dravid has averaged 60 over his last 50 tests. Not as dominant as Ponting in this era, but perhaps more consistent and a better performer in a tougher era (mid to late 90s.)

 

[Twizzle]

in hindsight I've gotta say I think RSA were very harshly done by with the weather

when you look at the time they lost on day 4, and its crutial timing in the match, it forced them to rush thier play ealry on day 5 and they sacrificed a few wickets to do it

if it had not rained on day 4, they would have had an extra 50 or 100 runs and would not have had to throw their wickets away early on day 5

this would have meant Australia chasing alot more runs and RSA would have had alot more time to bowl us out, andf it may have been us on day 5 that had to bat a bit more recklessly

 

[ozbash]

maybe so twizz but i think the way that ponting and the rest of the aussies were batting, they would have got an extra 100.

it was one of those games that you immediately remember years later.

 

[Southern Rooster]

My good pal Nalin pointed out to me recently that Ponting has averaged 70 over his last 52 tests (a number of tests deliberately chosen because it's how many the Don played.) Jacques Kallis, according to cricinfo, has averaged 69 from his last 50 tests.

This sort of proves two points- on one hand, you are dead right about Ponting and Kallis scoring far more heavily in roughly the second half of their careers to this point. The second point imo is that you can't underestimate just how brilliantly these players have performed. To average 70 over a 50 test period is ridiculously good.

Interestingly, Rahul Dravid has averaged 60 over his last 50 tests. Not as dominant as Ponting in this era, but perhaps more consistent and a better performer in a tougher era (mid to late 90s.)

Since the October Super Series against the World XI (10 weeks ago) Ponting has scored 944 runs at 85. With 5 centuries and 4 fifties. An amazing summer so far. All he needs to do now is see if he can score a ODI hundred somewhere else in Australia other then the MCG.

 

[aussies1st]

Rain happens twiz, we were at the bad end of it during the Ashes now SA were. You gotta take the good with the bad like umpiring decisions.

 

[Tommy Smith]

I still think Sachin is overrated. Going off stats for this one, but aren't the vast majority of his test runs scored in India??

IMO the greatest bats from the 90s would be S Waugh and Lara. At the rate Ponting is going now, he will be there.

But Tommy, I can't fully agree with the argument that it is easier to score runs. Up until now and in the early parts of the 00s, there have been plenty of quality bowlers doing the circuits. Warne, McGrath, Flintoff recently, Kumble, Pollock, Ntini, Shoaib (if you wish), Murali (if you're Sanjane), Vettori. I don't know if scoring is any easy due to the bowlers doing the trap, but I dare say that the quality of batsmen now is much better than I recally of in the mid-late 90s.

I reckon run scoring became slightly easier around 2000 but much moreso around 2001/2. Of the bowlers today, only Warne, McGrath and Murali are great. As we've seen from this series, Pollock is a shadow of his former self. Still pretty decent, but a stock bowler who keeps it tight more than anything. Flintoff is up there, as is Shoiab with his head screwed on (but thats been 1 series in like 5 years). Ntini isnt by any means a great bowler. And Vettori is an average test bowler backed up by his record. Kumble is a great spinner though.

In the 90's you had Warne, McGrath, McDermott, Gillespie, Ambrose, Walsh, Kumble, Donald, Pollock (at his peak), Akram, Younis, Murali...all up a much greater array of bowlers...and by that i mean most opponents had a major threat to their attack - Aus with Warne, McGrath and Dizzy, India with their spinners, Sri Lanka with Murali, the Windies with Ambrose and Walsh, RSA with Donald and Pollock and even De Villiers and Pakistan with Akram and Younis. Even Engladn werent the worst with Gough, Caddick, Fraser and Malcolm. So as you can see, in the 90's there was pretty much no let offs for batsmen...not many easy runs. Then you factor in the fatc that conditions were more evenly balanced back then where as now almost every pitch is made for batting. How many green tops are there these days?

Around the year 2000 the likes of Donald, Pollock, Ambrose, Walsh, Akram and Younish either retired or were getting well past it. And by 2002 just about all of them ad retired or were pretty much finsihed (except Pollock). So really since then the only challenges for batsmen have been Australia's attack and playing India/Sri Lanka on the subcontinent.

Only until recently has England's attack become a quality one, but thats mainly at home with the reverse swing. And funnily enough, this challenge coincided with a return to tough cricket for the Australian batsmen, something that took them until the last test to adjust to when Hayden and Langer put their heads down and scored runs the way most of them had to be scored in the 90's - by grinding them out. I honestly reckon one of the main reasons Aus los the ashes was because they hadnt faced a major challenge against fast bowlers for years and they simply didnt adjust there 'attack, attack' approach to the new challenge.

This is all pretty much backed up by these stats - Number of batsmen to average over 50 in a selected year: Qualification - 500 runs.

90 - 7
91 - 7
92 - 5
93 - 10
94 - 10
95 - 5
96 - 5
97 - 8
98 - 9
99 - 9
00 - 7
01 - 18
02 - 15
03 - 18
04 - 16
05 - 15

The increase is pretty obvious.

 

[Tommy Smith]

Rain happens twiz, we were at the bad end of it during the Ashes now SA were. You gotta take the good with the bad like umpiring decisions.

LOL. Remember Old Trafford?

 

[SirShire]

I think a more accurate stat would be maintaining an average of over 50 since 2000. A player can score a few centuries and then float off into nothing in one year, but it takes skill to keep it that high over a few years.

 

[salivor]

I think a more accurate stat would be maintaining an average of over 50 since 2000. A player can score a few centuries and then float off into nothing in one year, but it takes skill to keep it that high over a few years.

Well you only have to look at the record books for the highest test averages of all time: http://nz.cricinfo.com/db/STATS/TESTS/BATTING/TEST_BAT_HIGHEST_AVS.html

9 current batsman are in the top 30:
10th - Ricky Ponting - 57.71
11th - Jacques Kallis - 57.24
12th - Rahul Dravid - 57.16
14th - Sachin Tendulkar - 56.71
20th - Matthew Hayden - 54.17
21st - Brian Lara - 53.86
24th - Virender Sehwag - 53.54
27th - Inzamam Ul Haq - 51.61
29th - Graeme Smith - 51.54

Batting definetly has dominated since about 2000, all these batsman now rank amongst the greats in terms of batting average. It's a growing trend, it was not long ago that averaging 50 in test cricket would put you in an elite club, now it will only put you amongst the top 10 batsman of the current day.

 

[SirShire]

Nearly all of those averages have been built from careers spanning well over a decade. Tendulkar debuted in 1989 I believe, nearly every player in that list is in their early/mid 30s and have had close to 100 tests to build their innings up

 

[aussies1st]

20 inns for qualification, Hussey is 9 inns away from being on that list. I can't see him going back above 100 now.

 

[salivor]

Nearly all of those averages have been built from careers spanning well over a decade. Tendulkar debuted in 1989 I believe, nearly every player in that list is in their early/mid 30s and have had close to 100 tests to build their innings up

Lara, Tendulkar and Ul Haq have always been around that mark but the rest, Kallis, Ponting, Dravid, Hayden, Sehwag and Smith have all really exploded in terms of average since about 2000.