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Any basketball fans here?

Messages
377
By the way, Steve, how do you rate Shaq in comparison with David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon, in their primes? While there is no doubt that Shaq is far more physically dominant than those two, I can't imagine his skill level being even close. Olajuwon, from 1993-1995 was simply incredible. His post up play was good as I've ever seen. Robinson, in 1994-1995, was just as good. He was unique, because, despite being a seven-footer, he was truly an athlete, and had the all-round game of a small forward.

Also, who do you rate better out of Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain? It's has always intrigued me, as Chamberlain was such a dominant individual, but Russell, like Jordan, Isiah, and Magic, was an out-and-out winner.
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
The zone defence change has generated a lot of debate. The thinking was that the game was getting too stagnant and predictable under the old man-to-man rules. Teams would isolate thier 2 best players on one side of the court, force the defence to double team the best post player, and pass it back out for an open shot. Most teams did not fast break much or play a flowing offense with lots of movement like the Bulls did in the Jordan years. The zone defense is supposed to give the game more variety and strategy, and make it more like the college and international games.
Some feel the zones will make things worse by allowing defenses to surround the best players and not let them drive to the hoop or make their best moves. Shaq has complained about this already, saying fans will not get the see the stars at their best anymore.
Many coaches have said they will use zones sparingly. It remains to be seen whether the game will look much different this year
 
Messages
377
One last question. What happened to Anfernee Hardaway? This guy looked destined for greatness. He was, to a certain extent,a combination Jordan and Magic. He could score with the best of them and had great passing ability. Now, you never even hear of him.
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
MM: In 95, when Houston won its 2nd championship, Hakeem was at his absolute best. He was close to a Jordan-like level of sustained brilliance during the playoffs. In the Western finals that year (league semifinals) he totally outplayed Robinson who had been the regular season MVP that year. He made him look bad. Then in the finals he played against the young Shaq and Houston swept Orlando 4-0. But Shaq played better against Hakeem than Robinson did. I hope Hakeem can regain a little of his old form for my Raptors this year.
I think Shaq is highly skilled also, but you notice his size and power more. No one can stop him. The best defensive center in the NBA, Dikembe Mutumbo, tried hard in the finals, and played well, but couldn't stop Shaq. I will say that part of the reason is the referees allow Shaq to turn and bulldoze his way to the basket, which many times I think should be his offensive foul. Bill Russell, considered the best defensive player ever, was shorter and lighter than Mutombo - I don't know how he could have stopped Shaq. Wilt was also quite a good defensive player, as tall as Shaq and very strong, but even he was 20-30 pounds lighter than Shaq.
Right now there are very few centers good enough on offense to occupy and wear out Shaq at the other end of the court. Tim Duncan is one, but in the playoffs the Lakers outplayed the Spurs so much as a team that Duncan couldn't overcome it. I would have liked to see Wilt and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who were the greatest offensive centers ever, play against Shaq because I think they could have scored as much on him as he would on them.
The question of Wilt vs. Russell is an age-old NBA question. I saw them play at the end of their careers. I believe Russell's teams uually won (11 championships in his 13 years) because they were better teams, and because Russell could neutralize Wilt which no one else could in those days. In 1967 Wilt finally had a better team and beat Russell on the way to a champioship, but the next year they (Philadelphia) should have won again but got upset by Russell's Celtics. Wilt won 1 more championship with the Lakers in 72, after Russell was retired.
Anfernee (Penny) Hardaway and Grant Hill were supposed to be the next Jordans around the time of Jordan's retirement. Since then both have suffered injuries which have hampered them, and the new potential "Jordan's" are Kobe, Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady. Hardaway and Hill are still young, late 20's, and may be able to come back this season. I don't think Hardaway will ever be as good as he might have been because his knee injuries have reduced his qickness and jumping ability.
 
Messages
377
Thanks for the reply.

I've got to say that it always makes me laugh when the media throws up all these "next Jordan's". They should really accept the fact that it is unlikely that anyone will ever come close to Jordan's complete package, and his sustained brilliance and dominance, over such a long period of time. It is unfair on the young players, and it is an insult to Jordan. Remember Harold Miner? He was another "next Jordan".

I remember the 1995 Western conference finals where Olajuwon dominated Robinson. It was a major letdown. Robinson was the better of the two in the regular season, and was also probably better for the second half of the 1993-94 regular season, but he never really played well in the playoffs. I don't think that series was a true reflection of the difference between the two, as I remember Robinson putting 40 on Olajuwon a few times in regular season matches. Still, it did show that Olajuwon handled the big match pressure a lot better.

On a slightly related point, I've never been a fan of the MVP award. I've always preferred "best player" awards, and I also felt like the wrong player often got the MVP. Really, how is it that Jordan only won five? He was clearly superior to Barkley and Olajuwon in 1993, but came third in the voting. I often felt that Jordan's level of excellence was so constant that people took it for granted. Admittedly, Barkley had a great year in 1993, by his standards, but in comparison with Jordan, he still wasn't in the same class (as was shown in the finals, where Jordan averaged over 40 ppg). Another example was in 97, when Malone beat Jordan. I don't think that Malone was better, or more valuable to his team, than Jordan, but was given the award based on him having a career-best season, and people being so used to Jordan's standard that it didn't seem to stand out anymore. I also feel like Magic was lucky to beat Jordan in 1989 and 1990. Jordan was at his most spectaculor in these years, and was in a different class to Magic. But I feel like the media, who votes for the award, wanted to reward Magic for those years prior, where he missed out on the award to Bird.

 

imported_Jackal

Juniors
Messages
225
Canadian Steve;

Is it true that there is talk around Basketball circles of in-fighting among the Portland Trailblazers? I read somewhere that the team doesn't have a lot of 'chemistry' (as one article called it), because a number of players don't get along,and therefore will quite possibly suffer the consequences in their performance in the up-coming NBA season. I also heard a rumor that many player in the team are messing with other players wives/partners (adultry).

Is this true? Can you give us some more details?

I'm not trying to start an inappropriate or tastelessrumor .. it's just what I read and was told by a friend from Uni, who is an American but studying here in Sydney.

Cheers ..


 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Mystery man: You make some very good points about the MVP award and Jordan. I would say that he didn't win in his first 5 years because Bird and Magic were excellent players, very deserving, and their teams were the 2 best. Once the Bulls became a champion, Michael started winning MVP's. You may be right about Magic, especially in 1990, though he was still a dominant player then, but in a different way from Jordan.
I often wonder what would have happened if Jordan hadn't retired early in 94 and 95. Would they have won those 2 years also? The Rockets won the title both those years, and I think they played better those 2 years than any of the western teams the Bulls beat in their 6 championships.
Jackal: I don't know anything about the personal lives of the Trailblazers as far as their wives, etc. They do lack chemistry as a team. Two years ago they should have beaten the Lakers and gone on to win the championship - they blew a 15 point lead in the 4th quarter of game 7. Last year they had the best record in the West just after mid-season, then fell apart the rest of the way. Part of the problem was they traded away forward Brian Grant, a hard worker and solid citizen. The guy they got to replace him, Shawn Kemp, played poorly at first, then missed most of the season in drug rehab. Their best player, Rasheed Wallace, is a great power forward, very close to the level of Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, and Chris Webber at his position. But he is erratic, has a terrible temper, leads the league in technical fouls by a long shot. The feeling is that his coach didn't discipline him enough, but finally suspended him last season for an incident where he threw a towel at center Arvidas Sabonis on the bench, then had a big argument with him in the dressing room after.
So there does seem to be some friction on the team. Also they have traded younger players for older veterans the last few years, trying to get closer to a championship, but it hasn't worked out. Soon the team may be too old and will have to rebuild. With a new coach this year they may be improved, but I don't think they will challenge the Lakers and Spurs for the Western title
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
MM: Also on the MVP awards, Jordan is an extremely competitive guy, and it would have motivated him to beat Barkley and Malone in the finals the years they won the MVP ahead of him. Even though he and Barkley are good friends.
 
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377
Steve, I distinctly remember the 1993 finals. On a few occasions Barkley tried to joke around, but Jordan wasn't interested. He only cared about winning, and that, more than anything else, is why he was so good (and probably still will be). I've read plenty about Jordan and he seems to have a real mean streak which stems from his incredible will to win.

As for the Rockets in 1994-95, I've never rated them that highly in comparison with the champions who came before them (Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Bulls). While they were probably better than any of the other teams that the Bulls faced in the finals from 1991-1993, and had a player, in Olajuwon, who could have given the Bulls' real trouble, I think that the Bulls of 1991-93 were a much better team. When you consider how (surprisingly) well the Bulls did in 1994, without Jordan, I can't help but think that they would have been the team to beat, in 1994-95, with him. Remember, Jordan was at his absolute peak when he retired for the first time, and was always able to (somehow) take his game to new levels on the big occasions.
 
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4,446
Im not sure if the timing is out a bit here, but did the Rockets have Drexler,Barkley and Olajuwon holding up the team during their 94-95 reigns? If so, i also find it very hard to rate them. From memory, they also had a resurgent Kevin Willis in their squad as well. I didn't see a lot of chemistry between them, they had a team of brilliant individuals, not so much a brillant team. Chicago in 91-93 were a brillant team. They were extremely cohesive, the chemistry between Pippen and Jordan was always brillant. And then they had Grant pulling down 10-12 rebounds a game to top it off... And they had a great coach! Phil Jackson knows how to manage talent more so then any other coach i have seem in my limited NBA watching experience. He reinforced this believe when he led Kobe and Shaq to titles for LA...
MFC.
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
MFC: You are thinking of the Rockets after their championship years. They traded away good young players from their championship teams, Sam Cassell and Robert Horry, to get older players like Barkley and Willis. Their team was never as good after these moves, even when they added Scottie Pippen in 1999 for a year.
MM: I think you are right, but I wish the Rockets could have played the Bulls in the finals those years. In 94 Houston had a good unsung power forward named Otis Thorpe to support Olajuwan. In 95 they trade Thorpe to get Clyde Drexler. I thought at the time they gave up too much rebounding to get Drexler, but Clyde played brilliantly in the finals and they won anyway. If they could have had Thorpe AND Drexler, and Hakeem playing as he did in 95, they would have given the Bulls a good series.
Your comments raise another interesting question: Were the Bulls of 91-93 better than the Bulls of 97-99? Jordan and Pippen were older, but maybe even smarter and mentally tougher in the 2nd 3 championships. It probably comes down to who you think was the better power forward, the young Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman. Whatever you think of Rodman as a person, he did play very well in those 2nd 3 championships
 
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4,446
How about Paxson vs Harper as well?? And don't forget Aussie Luc vs Cartwright!
Grant had more all round ability, Rodman was just a freak rebounder. Id say 91-93 Bulls
Yeah, i thought about that Houston thing a bit more after i wrote it. My NBA memories are somewhat muddled, barkley would've still been at Phoenix during the mid 90s, right??
MFC.
 
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377
While I would still favour the Bulls, the more I think about it, the more that I think that Houston would be in with a chance. If my memory serves me correctly, the Bulls had a very poor record against the Rockets and the Spurs, during their championship years of 1991-93. I don't think it is any surprise that these teams had the two best centres in the competition. The Bulls often struggled against teams with quality big men. New York also troubled them in 1992, with Patrick Ewing in the middle, which was a big surprise.
Otis Thorpe was a very good, very strong, and very underrated player. I was shocked when they traded him as I thought thathe was an integral part of their 1994 championship. He played very well in the 1994 finals, had played his entire career in Houston (I think), and, from what I recall, had very respectable numbers. While the trade for Drexler may have produced another championship, I can't help but feel disappointed at the lack of loyalty shown to Thorpe.

As for the Bulls of 1991-93 versus 1996-98, it is very hard to say. In terms of the amount of games won, the latter version was clearly the more dominant team. But, was that because the league was not as strong during that time, or because the Bulls were so good?

While I agree that Jordan played a smarter game after his comeback, I can't help but feel that it was partly out of necessity. Jordan was older, and, as a result,changed the way that he played. He had lost a bit of speed and was not quite as good at driving to the hoop. He became a brilliant post-up player and relied on his jump-shot a lot more. While I think he was, perhaps, just as effective as before, and a better team player, I'd have to say that, if given the choice, I'd take the pre-retirement Jordan. He was unstoppable, still very fast and athletic, and, during the 1993 finals, had started to develop his post-up game. (It's a pity that Jordan did call it quits in 1993, as I think that we missed seeing him at what would have been his most masterful, and complete, time as a player.) I also think that he was as mentally strong in 1992-93 as he was during his comeback.

Pippen is a completely different story. While he had developed into a very good player by 1993, I don't feel like he really flourished until Jordan left. He took his game to a new level in 1994, and developed into one of the game's best players. I have no doubt that, as a result of Jordan's retirement, Pippen was a much more valuable player to the Bulls during their second tenure as NBA champions. He was more confident, more mature, and, definitely, mentally tougher.

When it comes to the power forwards, I'd have to choose Rodman- he was the best rebounder ever. He may have been a liability in offense, but he still got a heap of points, and second chances, off offensive boards. His rebounding at the defensive end also limited the opposition's scoring opportunities. I also thought that Rodman was a good defender. Admittedly, he was not as good as he was during his Detroit days (when some were saying that he was the best one-on-one defender ever, and, certainly, along with Joe Dumars, one of the most effective versus Jordan), but he was still better than Grant. The only thing Grant had over Rodman was scoring, but he wasn't really that good. In fact, if he didn't play for the Bulls, I doubt that he would have gotten the wraps that he did. Don't get me wrong, he was a good, solid player - I just didn't think that he was anything special. In the end, I'd have to say that Rodman's rebounding and defense was a more valuable asset than Grant's superior offensive game.

All in all, I can't really pick a winner. The fairest way to judge them would probably be to take Jordan out of the lineup, and rate the other members of the teams. On that rationale, I may have to go for the 1996-98 Bulls, due to Pippen being an improved player, and me preferring Rodman over Grant. Of course, teamwork would also be a major factor, as would the other players in both teams.

 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
MM: Very thorough analysis. Otis Thorpe did play for the Kansas City/Sacramento Kings before he played for Houston. And there isn't much loyalty in NA sports anymore, because of player unions, free agency, and high salaries. Players who stay with one team for a long career, out of mutual loyalty, are rare these days, though there are some like Joe Dumars and Reggie Miller. BTW, Otis Thorpe was still playing this past season - he must be close to 40 by now.
Speaking of Horace Grant, and player/team loyalty, I was shocked when he left the Lakers this summer after getting one championship there. But apparently the Lakers wanted him to take a pay cut, and Orlando offered him a better 2 year contract, so he moved
 
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377
How about an update on the NBA, Steve?

I just checked out the official site and it seems like the Lakers are once again the team to beat. Both Bryant and O'Neil are putting up big numbers. Jordan, on the other hand, seems to be down on what was expected, scoring around the 20-point mark in most of his games.

I did notice that Anfernee Hardaway seems like he might be back. He must have had a shocker in the first game as he only scored 1 point. But in the three matches since, he has scored 25, 26 and 31. I think that he outscored Bryant in one match. It'd be good if he is able to get back to where he used to be, as he is one of the most talented players that I've seen.

What kind of a team are the Suns?
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Sorry, I haven't been following the whole league closely enough. But my Raptors are 2-2 after losing their first 2 games. I think Jordan is playing well enough. His team beat the 76ers on Saturday night on national tv. But Philadelphia was missing Iverson, Snow, ans McKie, 3 of their starters, with injuries. Phoenix is a team with talent, but not enough size to compete against the big players in their Western conference like Shaq, Webber, Duncan and others. They made a big trade in the off-season, sending Jason Kidd to the Nets for Stephon Marbury. Marbury is 4 years younger, and very talented, but considered a bit selfish compared to Kidd who is a great assist man. Kidd was charged in a domestic abuse situation last year, and I think the Suns' management wanted to trade him to clean up their image. A couple of their other players had legal problems last year also. I'm glad to see Penny making a comeback. Not too many years ago he was considered one of the very best young players, but injuries have plagued him since. I saw him on a sidewalk in Toronto 2 years ago but recognized him too late to speak to him. He was walking with one other guy to a restaurant. Quite a contrast with Jordan, who they say can't walk down a street or go to a store or movie without attracting a crowd.
 

imported_bronco

Juniors
Messages
1,426
Can't say i'm much of a basketball fan myself. It has been good though to see the recent success of the Wellington Saints in the NBL here in NZ and then for the Tall Blacks to take a series victory over the Australians. Then to cap off the high Shaun Marks after leaving the raptors and spending a while in Europe came back to the NBA with Miami and has made it into the 16 man squad. It looks like he may get a bench spot and get some serious game time through the year which is excellent for NZ Basketball.

Cheers
bronco
 

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