Can we learn something from super rugby?

[Sinman]

I think that it is short sighted to not have already put in another NZ team.. NZ league needs it because it currently relies on young players moving to Australia to give the national team depth.. I think.. an option that would be good to look at would be the possibility of a Pacific Islands team based out of Fiji and playing games in PNG Samoa, Tonga.. and Perth.. We have to think about what is good for the game and not what is good for the eastern seaboard of Australia.. But we probably won't see any of this happen..

 

[hutch]

I don't know why people are getting upset at Perth red in this thread. Everything he had said is 100% spot on.

 

[Perth Red]

Haha,it's just the misguided few mate, I'm used to it

 

[Bronxnation]

I don't know why people are getting upset at Perth red in this thread. Everything he had said is 100% spot on.

nah not upset, i agree with most things he says. just brisbane 2 idea is way off

 

[joshreading]

Rugby League followers that think that we can't learn from Union or soccer or American football or the AFL or Lawn Bowls for that matter are near sighted and lack any sense of perspective. We have an amazing game that is hampered by an extreme socialist world view at present particularly evident after Super League.

We should have NRL backed games in every state of Australia and in a number of key Kiwi locations. We should have a clear strategy for expansion but the present strategy is 'But the weaker clubs might suffer'.

There will ALWAYS be clubs that suffer through lack of administrative ability, smaller markets and coming down the ladder.

 

[RoosTah]

I love Union almost as much as League, but the environments that Super Rugby and the NRL operate in are extremely different.

Super Rugby's expansion was a necessity for the ARU in particular, as they need to increase the exposure of the tournament to more broadcasters in favourable timeslots around the world due to dropping interest in Australia.

This is why I said on the other thread that there was nothing particularly brave about the inclusion of Japan and Argentina; both provide access to lucrative TV markets and both have a strong enough player base to support a team.

But locally networks pay dick-all for Super Rugby and interest is flagging. I was at the Reds game on Saturday, and I can tell you now that the atmosphere was nothing what it was like in years gone by. This is partly due to the fact that NSW has been too strong (and the NSW-QLD rivalry seems strongest when little brother is winning) and partly because the franchise nature of Super Rugby has diluted the NSW and Qld identities somewhat over the years.

All the same, the ARU do bugger all to promote the clashes, and in that respect they could learn a tonne from the NRL. In fact in general, Union could learn a tonne from the NRL on how to organise big events, as they seem terrible at it every time Bledisloe etc comes about.

I do think the NRL needs to expand, but the calculus is vastly different for the two governing bodies; the NRL are making a tonne of cash just doing what they're doing, but the ARU were going broke staying with the status quo.

 

[Captain Apollo]

Rugby League followers that think that we can't learn from Union or soccer or American football or the AFL or Lawn Bowls for that matter are near sighted and lack any sense of perspective. We have an amazing game that is hampered by an extreme socialist world view at present particularly evident after Super League.

We should have NRL backed games in every state of Australia and in a number of key Kiwi locations. We should have a clear strategy for expansion but the present strategy is 'But the weaker clubs might suffer'.

There will ALWAYS be clubs that suffer through lack of administrative ability, smaller markets and coming down the ladder.

You also neglect some of the things that happen in some of the overseas sports you cite. American football has a salary cap and a salary floor also, which means they must spend at least 90% of their salary cap each year, the weakest team based on results gets the best draft picks. Add in the NFL's revenue equalisation efforts which prop up smaller teams.

I could mention the NBA with the luxury tax.

As such I would be careful throwing around "socialist" and "Super League" as the causes of some of the measures in the NRL.

 

[RoosTah]

You also neglect some of the things that happen in some of the overseas sports you cite. American football has a salary cap and a salary floor also, which means they must spend at least 90% of their salary cap each year, the weakest team based on results gets the best draft picks. Add in the NFL's revenue equalisation efforts which prop up smaller teams.

I could mention the NBA with the luxury tax.

As such I would be careful throwing around "socialist" and "Super League" as the causes of some of the measures in the NRL.

The NFL is the best run competition on the planet, but with both salary caps/floors and a draft it is arguably far more "socialist" than any competition in Australia, and it is organised that way because it ensures a more competitive and unpredictable product.

Ironically, the English have gone the opposite rout and chosen a crony-capitalist structure for with the EPL, ensuring effectively 75-80% of its teams are destined to forever be little more than padding for the competition, so I think we ought to not be too hard on the "socialist" model given what the alternative might look like.

Both are big rich competitions, but I think most League fans would agree that if you had a choice between the "Socialist NFL" and 4 team merry-go-round oligarchy that is the EPL, most reasonable observers would see the NFL model as the far healthier for the growth of the game here.

 

[Perth Red]

Interestingly though the EPL has no problems packing out stadiums despite the lack of hope of winning anything for the majority of clubs? Threat of relegation, champions and Euro league places etc ensure that winning the title isn't all that there is to play for.

Re super 15 expansion, you could argue the introduction of Perth and Brisbane would also add to the to pot, improve time slots etc, difference is super 15has balls and NRL doesn't. Re making a ton of money you may have missed the annual report financials!

 

[RoosTah]

Interestingly though the EPL has no problems packing out stadiums despite the lack of hope of winning anything for the majority of clubs? Threat of relegation, champions and Euro league places etc ensure that winning the title isn't all that there is to play for.

Re super 15 expansion, you could argue the introduction of Perth and Brisbane would also add to the to pot, improve time slots etc, difference is super 15has balls and NRL doesn't. Re making a ton of money you may have missed the annual report financials!

English soccer does well despite its grossly inequitable structure because the sport is a national obsession and as you say there are structures that provide them access to Europe.

That structure would do nothing for the NRL in Australia's vastly more competitive football market though and in all likelihood would see it lose market share.

Regarding Super Rugby, I'm not sure if you read my whole comment but the poor balance sheet of the ARU was precisely why they expanded; the status quo wasn't working and they rely on foreign TV cash to keep afoot due to flagging domestic interest.

Again, it had nothing to do with courage; foreign TV cash in the form of the overs paid by the Brits has saved the ARU's bacon and so the prospect of prime time games in the American time slot, plus the emotional investment of Japan's millions who are currently experiencing a rugby boom makes the inclusion of the Jaquares and SunWolves not so much an act of courage but one in which dollar signs were firmly in SANZAR's eyes. Particularly given that the JRFU have inexplicably agreed to forgo any Japanese TV money for Super Rugby, allowing it all to go to the existing members until the current deal is renegotiated.

If Perth had a strong domestic League comp that made the Pirates able to field an NRL side with few existing NRL players required AND their inclusion promised a significant increase in TV revenue, then I think the "courage" to expand the comp there would be very very easy to find in the NRL.

Again, I'm a big supporter of the Pirates concept and hope they get a team soon, but I think you're ignoring certain realities when you frame this as being about courage.

 

[papabear]

Yeah, i understand what you are saying capture more of the market but where exactly in brisbane do you put it?
have you ever been to brisbane? the only thing the nrl could possible use is the north vs south rivalry but with suncorp the only sufficient stadium there is no point playing both teams there as why would the south team want to have home games on the north?
then there rises another problem,
with brisbane we have never really been divided. (AFL 1 team, RU 1 team, Soccer 1 team) so what happens to the broncos? they have to go to north or south which would then frustrate the supporters on the opposite side... i dont think loyal and passionate fans would be thrilled with a team coming in and taking over their area whilst their original team gets moved to their rivals territory?
make sense?

you can live on the north/south side of the river and still go for the broncs.

I personally would do what soccer has done with sydney

Have an ipswich western brisbane type side picking up the outer fringe of brisbane and leave brisbane to the main part of brisbane.

The fact that brisbane broncos are the biggest antagonists against brisbane 2, makes sense why you should put another team their, they know the potential.

 

[RoosTah]

you can live on the north/south side of the river and still go for the broncs.

I personally would do what soccer has done with sydney

Have an ipswich western brisbane type side picking up the outer fringe of brisbane and leave brisbane to the main part of brisbane.

The fact that brisbane broncos are the biggest antagonists against brisbane 2, makes sense why you should put another team their, they know the potential.

That makes a fair bit of sense. Is there an East-West divide in Brisbane like Sydney though? Because in Sydney it really is like two different cities.

 

[LESStar58]

In my lifetime watching RL, Union has expanded to have prof comps in Argentina, Japan, Italy, Russia etc. it has developed a format that is now an Olympic and commonwealth sport, it has a thorough international calendar and plan, has multi national club competitions in both hemispheres and Has overtaken RL as the number one professional rugby code. All that despite being a very poor imitation of RL.
RL? Well it once had a team in Paris and London, has managed to expand to one new city in Melbourne and that's about it. Not sure if we have something to learn? Lol

The revenue in the game(NRL) has increased about a thousand percent in the last 20 years but it's all
doom and gloom because there isn't a team in Perth...

It's never going to be Union but it's come a fair way..

Perth Red; serious question.

If the Pirates, Reds or whatever get in what does it mean for The Force?

 

[Knownothing]

Perth Red; serious question.

If the Pirates, Reds or whatever get in what does it mean for The Force?

It would depend on whether the two franchises decided to cooperate, working together (or at least, not against each other), and try to grow the market for the rugby codes.


The Force could survive, but not if the NRL decides to crush them by playing games at the same time (venue availability would be a factor, of course). Or by stealing some of their younger players.

 

[RoosTah]

It would depend on whether the two franchises decided to cooperate, working together (or at least, not against each other), and try to grow the market for the rugby codes.


The Force could survive, but not if the NRL decides to crush them by playing games at the same time (venue availability would be a factor, of course). Or by stealing some of their younger players.

I'd suspect the Force would be ok, just purely due to the fact Union survives in large part thanks to the city's sizeable South African community.

I can't imagine the NRL trying to kill the Force with planned venue clashes, as it would come across as petty and with the NRL being both a much longer tournament and on Free to Air, there's not really any need to.

 

[Bronxnation]

That makes a fair bit of sense. Is there an East-West divide in Brisbane like Sydney though? Because in Sydney it really is like two different cities.

Nup, Thats IMO anyway, the only divide once again IMO is north-south

 

[BuffaloRules]

I'd suspect the Force would be ok, just purely due to the fact Union survives in large part thanks to the city's sizeable South African community.

I can't imagine the NRL trying to kill the Force with planned venue clashes, as it would come across as petty and with the NRL being both a much longer tournament and on Free to Air, there's not really any need to.

The NRL couldn't give the slightest rats ass about what time the Force are playing their games in comparison to a potential Perth NRL side..

Who cares whether the Force get crowds of 13K and the Pirates 12K?

The real difference will be in respect of a unique time slot of live footy being beamed into the East Coast at 9.30pm on a Fri or Sat night, or 6.30 pm Sun night..

Imagine WA Pirates v Dogs live 6.30 pm EST Sun played in bright sunshine?

The Force could play the Sunwolves at the same time, but who would care enough to watch?

 

[RoosTah]

The NRL couldn't give the slightest rats ass about what time the Force are playing their games in comparison to a potential Perth NRL side..

Who cares whether the Force get crowds of 13K and the Pirates 12K?

The real difference will be in respect of a unique time slot of live footy being beamed into the East Coast at 9.30pm on a Fri or Sat night, or 6.30 pm Sun night..

Imagine WA Pirates v Dogs live 6.30 pm EST Sun played in bright sunshine?

The Force could play the Sunwolves at the same time, but who would care enough to watch?

As I said, the sizeable Jarpie population of Perth would and so would the members of Union clubs there.

It's like how a lot of Euro immigrants will care enough to watch soccer here. I reckon the NRL would draw more support, but the Force would be alright just thanks to the Jarpies and existing Union fan base.

All the same, there would also still be some cross over between the fans of both clubs as a lot of blokes who grow up playing footy will play both League and Union. With that in mind it would be irrational for the new Pirates outfit to try and make fans choose between the two, at least in the beginning.

 

[BuffaloRules]

Did you miss my point about TV audiences on the East Coast?

 

[RoosTah]

Did you miss my point about TV audiences on the East Coast?

No, I just don't really know what it had to do with my comment that the NRL wouldn't go out of its way to try clash with Super Rugby.