In the end it's the NRL who have cheated the Storm!

[The EELiminator]

The problem is the NRL have opened up a can of worms by saying that if this incident was found out before the season the Storm roster could have been sorted so they start the season with a 'legal' team and avert any future penalty.

Seven rounds in and its a different set of rules which makes you conclude that the NRL think it's too hard to sort out this season in its entirity.

its a can of worms whenever it was going to happen if it was before the start of the season there still would have been the problem that most of the other teams have spent their cap already

 

[Crusher]

its a can of worms whenever it was going to happen if it was before the start of the season there still would have been the problem that most of the other teams have spent their cap already

Agreed but how can they say no 2010 points penalty if discovered and sorted pre-season vs no possible points in 2010 because it happened now.

Either way you're right...the same cap issues were always going to be there for other teams but still two different penalty options.

It's like saying lucky we caught you stealing this week because the judge on duty is lenient compared to the one working next week

 

[Lambretta]

Lol what a stupid post! How can they be coached and managed better than any club??? They had an illegal team e.g better players than everyone else! You can't just take out the salary cap as that is what all the rosters are based on. By the way all systems get abused, In sport or anywhere there is no 100% correct system. As there is always cheats trying to gain an advantage e.g Storm and Dogs etc.

Is a cheat someone who did the wrong thing by the rules or someone who got caught?

In a recent SMH poll 92% of respondents out of more than 1,000 people said they believed more clubs than the Melbourne Storm had cheated the salary cap.

I don't have any doubt in my mind that there are 4 or 5 clubs who at one time or another have bent the rules regarding the cap. Including my club and yours at various times.

Let's look at Melbournes version of cheating.

They underwrote payments from outside companies to ensure that the young players they had nurtured themselves stayed at the Storm rather than moving elsewhere.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. But I thought the salary cap was introduced to stop the richest clubs from buying up the talented players that poorer clubs developed. Remember the days when Manly used to buy all the youngsters from Souths etc. The cap was designed to level the playing field. Not to ensure that clubs that developed the very best were forced to offload them to other clubs. The Storm are being penalised for successfully developing players and they deserved concessions under the cap for doing so.

The cap itself is flawed, badly flawed and many people have been saying it for a long time.

Had the Melbourne Storm not underwritten the addtional payments the players received the payments would not have been illegal. It was their guarantee that they would back up the payments if the 3rd party deals fell through that is the issue.

Now assume that the third party deals might just be genuine and not a false payment from the Storm via a 3rd party backer and the Storm hasnt actually OVERPAID their players. They've just agreed to do so should the deal go to pooh. Which now they almost certainly HAVE. Ironic that, isn't it?

With Melbourne, you have a club that doesnt have it's own juniors to pick players up from and has to work damn hard scouring the country for new talent.

You have a club that is in foreign territory bringing our great game to Victoria. The only worthwhile expansion of Rugby League in the Southern Hemisphere in 15 years.

You have a club that is given no press coverage in their home town.

A club that gets no television coverage in their home town.

A club that has to recruit players to move away from their friends and family and support networks to play for them and therefore is almost forced to have to pay above market odds to attract players.


So what do we do to assist the growth of the Melbourne Storm? Nothing. We force them to play on an unlevel playing field and when they are successful against all the odds, we're not willing to give them any concessions to maintain the momentum and to grow the sport in Victoria.

Then when they do cheat (and it was almost a given that they'd have to, in order to survive against such odds) we not only belittle all their successes but we call them names, attack them and then attempt to destroy the playing roster they have and possibly the game in Victoria itself.

The NRL and fans of some other clubs are gloating over this issue in a way that sickens me. It's short sighted, childish, beligerant behviour of the worst kind.

Cheating when the odds are so badly stacked against you is not exactly the worst thing in the World. Sometimes you dont have a choice if you want to compete. I think the Storm should be rightly proud of what they've achieved and I think fans of other clubs and the NRL ought to understand that and cut them a little slack.

Had we had the foresight to give them some concessions in the first place as the AFL did with Sydney and Brisbane then this would not have been a problem.

The NRL has been guilty along with the Storm of allowing this problem to evolve. It's not like they werent warned. People have been complaining of the unfairness of the cap for a long time.

 

[Eelementary]

Is a cheat someone who did the wrong thing by the rules or someone who got caught?

In a recent SMH poll 92% of respondents out of more than 1,000 people said they believed more clubs than the Melbourne Storm had cheated the salary cap.

I don't have any doubt in my mind that there are 4 or 5 clubs who at one time or another have bent the rules regarding the cap. Including my club and yours at various times.

Let's look at Melbournes version of cheating.

They underwrote payments from outside companies to ensure that the young players they had nurtured themselves stayed at the Storm rather than moving elsewhere.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. But I thought the salary cap was introduced to stop the richest clubs from buying up the talented players that poorer clubs developed. Remember the days when Manly used to buy all the youngsters from Souths etc. The cap was designed to level the playing field. Not to ensure that clubs that developed the very best were forced to offload them to other clubs. The Storm are being penalised for successfully developing players and they deserved concessions under the cap for doing so.

The cap itself is flawed, badly flawed and many people have been saying it for a long time.

Had the Melbourne Storm not underwritten the addtional payments the players received the payments would not have been illegal. It was their guarantee that they would back up the payments if the 3rd party deals fell through that is the issue.

Now assume that the third party deals might just be genuine and not a false payment from the Storm via a 3rd party backer and the Storm hasnt actually OVERPAID their players. They've just agreed to do so should the deal go to pooh. Which now they almost certainly HAVE. Ironic that, isn't it?

With Melbourne, you have a club that doesnt have it's own juniors to pick players up from and has to work damn hard scouring the country for new talent.

You have a club that is in foreign territory bringing our great game to Victoria. The only worthwhile expansion of Rugby League in the Southern Hemisphere in 15 years.

You have a club that is given no press coverage in their home town.

A club that gets no television coverage in their home town.

A club that has to recruit players to move away from their friends and family and support networks to play for them and therefore is almost forced to have to pay above market odds to attract players.


So what do we do to assist the growth of the Melbourne Storm? Nothing. We force them to play on an unlevel playing field and when they are successful against all the odds, we're not willing to give them any concessions to maintain the momentum and to grow the sport in Victoria.

Then when they do cheat (and it was almost a given that they'd have to, in order to survive against such odds) we not only belittle all their successes but we call them names, attack them and then attempt to destroy the playing roster they have and possibly the game in Victoria itself.

The NRL and fans of some other clubs are gloating over this issue in a way that sickens me. It's short sighted, childish, beligerant behviour of the worst kind.

Cheating when the odds are so badly stacked against you is not exactly the worst thing in the World. Sometimes you dont have a choice if you want to compete. I think the Storm should be rightly proud of what they've achieved and I think fans of other clubs and the NRL ought to understand that and cut them a little slack.

Had we had the foresight to give them some concessions in the first place as the AFL did with Sydney and Brisbane then this would not have been a problem.

The NRL has been guilty along with the Storm of allowing this problem to evolve. It's not like they werent warned. People have been complaining of the unfairness of the cap for a long time.

You seem to be conveniently glossing over the fact they bought out Brett Finch's sizeable contract from Parramatta, and made offers of interest to Willie Mason, all while being way over the cap...

 

[chrisD]

The problem is the NRL have opened up a can of worms by saying that if this incident was found out before the season the Storm roster could have been sorted so they start the season with a 'legal' team and avert any future penalty.

Seven rounds in and its a different set of rules which makes you conclude that the NRL think it's too hard to sort out this season in its entirity.

Well it takes the having won and lost to teams out of the equation, which is a huge part of it. More likely it was an off the cuff remark which shouldn't have really been made. Who said this when and where?

 

[The EELiminator]

Is a cheat someone who did the wrong thing by the rules or someone who got caught?

In a recent SMH poll 92% of respondents out of more than 1,000 people said they believed more clubs than the Melbourne Storm had cheated the salary cap.

I don't have any doubt in my mind that there are 4 or 5 clubs who at one time or another have bent the rules regarding the cap. Including my club and yours at various times.

Let's look at Melbournes version of cheating.

They underwrote payments from outside companies to ensure that the young players they had nurtured themselves stayed at the Storm rather than moving elsewhere.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. But I thought the salary cap was introduced to stop the richest clubs from buying up the talented players that poorer clubs developed. Remember the days when Manly used to buy all the youngsters from Souths etc. The cap was designed to level the playing field. Not to ensure that clubs that developed the very best were forced to offload them to other clubs. The Storm are being penalised for successfully developing players and they deserved concessions under the cap for doing so.

The cap itself is flawed, badly flawed and many people have been saying it for a long time.

Had the Melbourne Storm not underwritten the addtional payments the players received the payments would not have been illegal. It was their guarantee that they would back up the payments if the 3rd party deals fell through that is the issue.

Now assume that the third party deals might just be genuine and not a false payment from the Storm via a 3rd party backer and the Storm hasnt actually OVERPAID their players. They've just agreed to do so should the deal go to pooh. Which now they almost certainly HAVE. Ironic that, isn't it?

With Melbourne, you have a club that doesnt have it's own juniors to pick players up from and has to work damn hard scouring the country for new talent.

You have a club that is in foreign territory bringing our great game to Victoria. The only worthwhile expansion of Rugby League in the Southern Hemisphere in 15 years.

You have a club that is given no press coverage in their home town.

A club that gets no television coverage in their home town.

A club that has to recruit players to move away from their friends and family and support networks to play for them and therefore is almost forced to have to pay above market odds to attract players.


So what do we do to assist the growth of the Melbourne Storm? Nothing. We force them to play on an unlevel playing field and when they are successful against all the odds, we're not willing to give them any concessions to maintain the momentum and to grow the sport in Victoria.

Then when they do cheat (and it was almost a given that they'd have to, in order to survive against such odds) we not only belittle all their successes but we call them names, attack them and then attempt to destroy the playing roster they have and possibly the game in Victoria itself.

The NRL and fans of some other clubs are gloating over this issue in a way that sickens me. It's short sighted, childish, beligerant behviour of the worst kind.

Cheating when the odds are so badly stacked against you is not exactly the worst thing in the World. Sometimes you dont have a choice if you want to compete. I think the Storm should be rightly proud of what they've achieved and I think fans of other clubs and the NRL ought to understand that and cut them a little slack.

Had we had the foresight to give them some concessions in the first place as the AFL did with Sydney and Brisbane then this would not have been a problem.

The NRL has been guilty along with the Storm of allowing this problem to evolve. It's not like they werent warned. People have been complaining of the unfairness of the cap for a long time.

im getting sick of saying this maybe the cap is restrictive maybe it needs to be changed but until it is thats the rule its what the storm agreed to, its what all the other teams agreed to
so if they didnt like it they should have approached the nrl or got all 15 teams together to demand changes to benefit everyone not decided 'i dont like this rule so im going to ignore it' then go to great lengths to hide their cheating from the nrl

 

[Loudstrat]

One final question?

Can anyone honestly say they were expecting the penalty that was issued.

I suspect that the instant David Gallop announced it almost everyone would have been in abosulte shock at it's severity. Think back to that moment and recall what your thoughts were. I suspect most people were thinking hefty fines and loss of points this season at best. What about you?

BTW insinuating that I condone the actions of certain individuals within the Storm is ludicrous. Taking certain lines out of context also doesn't help anyone.

The context of this whole thread is that clubs have been cheated by an inadequate system. I thought I had made that clear. Those of you who claim the cap argument is only coming out now should contact media monitors It has been in Eastern seaboard mainstream press a total of 865 individual articles since 2005.

BTW also, read tomorrows Tele and Courier Mail. It will be worth it!

Rubbish. If someone breaks the law it isn't the law's fault!

If there was a law that said everyone had to hop to work on Tuesdays, and you walked, you are still breaking the law. It might be a stupid law, but that is no excuse to break it.

The salary cap breaches do not suggest the cap is wrong. Tax law, for instance, is broken countless times. Regardless, it's still the law.

I am absolutely sick to death of this "poor Storm" crap. No other club got $13 million from News Ltd last year - Cronulla could have done with it, and I guess Newy as well. Melbourne kept telling us how their jumper was worth the most in sponsorship, and how crap Sydney clubs were. Well, take the $13 million away and see how good they were.

They cheated. They copped a just fine. To me, the system worked perfectly.

 

[The EELiminator]

I am absolutely sick to death of this "poor Storm" crap. No other club got $13 million from News Ltd last year - Cronulla could have done with it, and I guess Newy as well. Melbourne kept telling us how their jumper was worth the most in sponsorship, and how crap Sydney clubs were. Well, take the $13 million away and see how good they were.

They cheated. They copped a just fine. To me, the system worked perfectly.

i know the feeling mate are we the only two people in the world to notice they won the premiership twice by cheating? and they still whine about the penalty

 

[Ulysseus]

No, the NRL did not cheat the Storm.
But the cap needs a little work, BUT then it gets blurry.
Firstly, lets say the cap gets raised to 6 million, all well and good, but then is it fair that a team like Melbourne who are getting their bills paid by an evil global empire get to spend 6 million when a struggling team like Cronulla will not be able to unless they find a rich private owner? (and I don't think the good "Doctor" is coming back).
Then again, making it a proposition along the lines of "you can spend whatever profits you spin from the club above the cap" would create a situation along the lines of the English super league or some soccer clubs where the haves sh*t on the have nots.
Its a razors edge to get it right, I can only see it working if each team had one rich benefactor to foot all the bills.
Also, being realistic, raising the cap is not going to see more players retained, it may very well just result in the upper echelon of players demanding 850K instead of 550K.

 

[Rusty]

Can someone explain why we have a cap? Why the NRL refuse to increase it? When you're able to answer the question then you will understand the severity of their actions. They went to extraordinary lengths to rort the salary cap. Which withheld other legal teams and at times equally talented teams to compete for the premiership. In every sport their a rules, you follow them and if you don't then you pay the consequences. It seems to me that it is really that black and white. You can argue the severity of the punishment, you can argue that the salary cap should be increased, but at the end of the day, these are seperate issues.

 

[Ulysseus]

Can someone explain why we have a cap?

Because otherwise we'd end up with

a) 6 competitive teams and everyone else just makes up the numbers
b) clubs spending beyond their means for one shot at glory and then going bust, if you really want to see a sh*tfight, tell a player you can't afford to pay him. (Newtown and Wests - 1983)

 

[Rusty]

c) talent is spread evenly across all teams...

 

[matt]

The cap is what it is till the next TV deal...Raising the cap has nothing to do with the disgraceful fraudulant behaviour of the News LTD Storm ATM.

 

[Ulysseus]

c) talent is spread evenly across all teams...

Potentially.
I just can't see it happening without consequence, I can see merit in junior discounts and I see red at past comments such as "The dragons have a duty to develop a large junior base for the good of other clubs", f**k off do they!
They have a duty to develop for themselves.
Then again, maybe I am only a fan of the "legitimate juniors do not count in the cap" idea because Saints have Illawarra to draw from.

I just can't see it helping distribution of players, I can see it helping a greedy prick like Thurston demanding 1,000,000 a year though.

 

[The EELiminator]

The cap is what it is till the next TV deal...Raising the cap has nothing to do with the disgraceful fraudulant behaviour of the News LTD Storm ATM.

i agree if the cap is raised it has be done fairly to benefit everyone not the 'make your own cap' storm way

 

[The EELiminator]

Potentially.
I just can't see it happening without consequence, I can see merit in junior discounts and I see red at past comments such as "The dragons have a duty to develop a large junior base for the good of other clubs", f**k off do they!
They have a duty to develop for themselves.

i agree mate the eels and panthers also have good junior nurseries but the cream of the crop gets taken by others we should be compensated

 

[Lambretta]

You seem to be conveniently glossing over the fact they bought out Brett Finch's sizeable contract from Parramatta, and made offers of interest to Willie Mason, all while being way over the cap...

Err, from memory, they took Finch when Parra dropped him and couldnt offer that much and offered a larger contract down the line if he was successful.

The Mason offer was a joke and Melbourne had gone mad by then thinking they could break the cap by as much as they wanted.

Look, I know what Melbourne did was wrong and YES they deserve sanctions to be made against them. Especially the people who made these decisions to break the cap rather than trying to talk the NRL into making some sensible concessions. However, had they done that, it would highlight the fact they might be breaking the cap and the NRL would have been up them in a flash.

But lets try and put some perspective into the issue and admit that the system might just not be ideal.

 

[Lambretta]

Potentially.
I just can't see it happening without consequence, I can see merit in junior discounts and I see red at past comments such as "The dragons have a duty to develop a large junior base for the good of other clubs", f**k off do they!
They have a duty to develop for themselves.
Then again, maybe I am only a fan of the "legitimate juniors do not count in the cap" idea because Saints have Illawarra to draw from.

I dont think concessions for having school kids who grow up in your catchment area as being a good idea as some clubs are much better placed in that regard. That just rewards geography not development.

However, clubs can scout kids from any area and its a better suggestion to give concessions for players that have come through the grades at each club or a marquee discounting system. Even better, larger discounts for marquee players you've developed yourself.

ALL clubs develop young players. Its that hard work that deserves reward.

 

[Lambretta]

i know the feeling mate are we the only two people in the world to notice they won the premiership twice by cheating? and they still whine about the penalty

I don't think anyone is under the misapprehension that the Storm are innocent under the current rules. However, its the fact that the rules are unfair and the harshness of the penalty that is in question. As well as the overall growth and development of league.


Take an example away from Rugby League. Let's look at incarceration for drug possession for example. If someone is imprisoned for possession of pot they've broken the law. They go to jail. But does the sentence justify the crime? Just because a law is there, it doesnt make it right.

Someone else said the Storm are culpable because they chose to play in the competition and abide by it's rules. This is true and it's why the Storm MUST be punished to a degree. It's finding the degree that's right that is at the centre of this debate.

Simple slogans for complex problems do not help. It's no good saying "you did the crime do the time". Parrots can be taught to scream slogans. It's understanding the motives and calculating the damage of the actions and finding a balance that is important.

I believe the NRL has gotten it wrong. Others believe they are bang on the money. It's nice that we can have a difference of opinion and discuss it sensibly.

 

[Crusher]

I don't think anyone is under the misapprehension that the Storm are innocent under the current rules. However, its the fact that the rules are unfair and the harshness of the penalty that is in question. As well as the overall growth and development of league.


Take an example away from Rugby League. Let's look at incarceration for drug possession for example. If someone is imprisoned for possession of pot they've broken the law. They go to jail. But does the sentence justify the crime? Just because a law is there, it doesnt make it right.

Someone else said the Storm are culpable because they chose to play in the competition and abide by it's rules. This is true and it's why the Storm MUST be punished to a degree. It's finding the degree that's right that is at the centre of this debate.

Simple slogans for complex problems do not help. It's no good saying "you did the crime do the time". Parrots can be taught to scream slogans. It's understanding the motives and calculating the damage of the actions and finding a balance that is important.

I believe the NRL has gotten it wrong. Others believe they are bang on the money. It's nice that we can have a difference of opinion and discuss it sensibly.

And it's these different opinions that will eventually lead to the formulation of a right solution