Discussion in 'St George Illawarra Dragons' started by itsme, Jun 11, 2018.
I wonder if Mary believes that ISP stands for "I Seldom Pick"
My view is that they will have limited time anyway. Look at it this way - you have maybe 5 or so potentials sitting in the wings? If you are looking to give them all time, they are only really getting 2 games to prove themselves before origin. I would worry if he was giving them greater than 20 minutes per game (unless they were sensational standouts in ISP which, by all accounts, they aren't). For those that have had 2 games have probably got a total of maybe 10 minutes - definitely less than 20. So it's either 10 or 40 minutes. From my perspective the extra 30 minutes, although better than nothing or 10, still doesn't go very far to preparing them for a full game in NRL. They are going to be unprepared anyway unless you are restricting the bench to 2 possibilities and rotating them every game. And given we have so many forwards in rep teams now, we were always going to struggle to get all of those positions filled.
As I said, for the Bulldogs game, I'd say it was more based on the way the game was playing out. It was so close (and our errors and discipline were poor) - risking inexperience with experience was the throw of the dice Mary made.
And that ties in with players like Host, Luciano, and to a lesser degree Sele not getting a heap of game time. It's difficult to have them on the bench and try to rotate them through the team when you have Frizz and Sims playing long minutes and out of their skin.
What we do lack is genuine prop depth. Additionally I'd probably have Sele on the bench to rotate with JDB. He could probably, at a pinch, drop into the forward rotation as well. He's probably the only player that could possibly fill a couple of spots.
Not questioning JDB or Frizz, I think they could proberbly both be 80 min players if you need them to be, Sims could possibly play 80 too.
But should they?
I don’t know the answers.
What does worry me is losing promising players from our club, not over money, but with the lure of playing first grade.
I’ve said before I don’t mind a bench rotation of young guys, as long it’s explained to them that if they don’t play it’s not a reflection of confidence or faith, but of getting “game day experience” and if they are dropped back, often without playing, it is again explaining to them that it’s about giving some of thier team mates that same experience.
My understanding is, that’s not what’s happening.
That leads to disillusionment and players leaving.
Great summary TB.
Well thought out.
I will look at the Manly game and see if he uses it the same way or not.
Depending on the score.
I would like to see if that is how its been done all year or is this the way he uses it during the soo period.
I would too mate - that is definitely only based on the Bulldogs game. I haven't looked at any of the other game in any detail so I can't say if the same applies across the board.
Based only on the JDB interchange (which seems pretty consistent) I'd hazard a guess that it would be a pretty common approach. But I'm only guessing.
I enjoyed reading War and Peace so this was a stroll in the park.
Very thoughtful analysis and arguments well made.
I just want to address one point where there seems to be a misunderstanding.
I think you are wrong when you use the term "blind hatred for Mary"
I for one do not "hate" Mary.
I also do not insult him personally by calling him a f/wit or such.
Personally, I think it's unnecessary and doesn't help the forum as a whole.
I think that what you're missing in terms of the way fans feel about Mary being coach are the following:
1. They way MacGregor was given the job in the first place - my feeling is that we should have recruited the best coach available at the time. Not someone with no qualifications that was thrust upon us by the Illawarra faction within the club.
All that was before we could even assess his coaching capability.
2. 2016 and 2017 in particular, were terrible years for our club under the tutelage of McGregor.
It has nothing to do with hatred.
Objectively speaking the coaching structures were amateurish and underlined McGregor's lack of technical knowledge as a coach.
I believe that most clubs in the NRL after 2 seasons like that, would have sacked their coach.
3. Premature contract extension - this sticks in the craw of many fans. This is nothing personal against McGregor but no one can understand why the club renewed and upgraded McGregor's contract without waiting until the end of the season.
The cynical amongst us would also suggest that McGregor was more focused on that contract extension than doing what was best for the club.
4. Media performance - some of the tripe that McGregor has dished up in interviews does not do justice to the head coach position of a club like St. George. His most recent outing on TV made me cringe it was so ordinary and self promoting.
5. This is the 5th year of his tenure - Hunt has been the catalyst that has perched us on top of the table.
Unfortunately, the last 4 games have been consistently bad and show alarming trends from the last 2 years.
These points do not influence my ability to objectively analyze the performance of the coach or the team. They are just facts.
It may however explain a lot of the negative sentiment surrounding McGregor.
The majority of fans would prefer to have a Bennett or a Cleary in charge that they can feel an affinity with.
Definite contender for post of the year award in the 'Mary Fails' Category.
Please note - The category is already quite full but we'll make room!
Firstly, let me just clarify - the reference to hatred of Mary and the insults are more a general comment about the sentiments in this forum - not specifically aimed at your post. My point was simply that it's a bit like some sort of hysteria - something negative gets mentioned and everyone jumps on the bandwagon - irrespective of whether there is proof, facts that contradict it or some sort of reasoning that could possibly explain what was going on. I could probably name a couple of examples just off the top of my head where some point was made, people jump on it and then conveniently ignore that an explanation was provided to dismiss it and it just keeps rolling on. People would rather jump on the "lets assign blame to Mary for everything" wagon rather than try to understand why things might be happening.
Secondly, I'm not disputing the fact that nearly everyone on this forum would agree that Mary is not the best option for a coach (I agree and I have said this previously in other posts). However, this thread was about bench usage and I responded specifically to your post about the same. The 5 points you've made above are not in dispute in this thread, but it does support my view that most of the sentiment on here is some level of dislike - hate is a strong word. Those points might be valid, but they also generate all sorts of outlandish and blinkered views.
I would have liked him to put Host on instead of Latimore just to see if we can improve on our running game when this plodder comes on.
Ps. don't waste your time in telling me his been good this yr. I strive for a little more quality. Sorry.
Samy, quick look at the previous 2 games and there are differences. Against Panthers we only made 7 interchanges - but so did Penrith. Penrith basically shadowed our changes. For most of the game, a couple of minutes after we made a change, Penrith did. Lawrie got 22 minutes game time.
For Raiders, we actually made 9 changes - and Canberra 11. HIAs maybe? JDB off around the 30 minute mark again, but back a few minutes later to replace Frizz (1 minute before half time) - possible HIA there or injury concern? Frizz comes back on after half time and JDB stays on to be replaced by Mann at the 60 minute mark. Lawrie doesn't get on the field. This is a confusing one but one reason may be that the change at half time threw out the rotation and used up an interchange that wasn't planned (possibly also forced a game plan change). Having Lawrie on the bench possibly precluded him from swapping out with Frizz. There's probably another one in there somewhere that wasn't planned. Pretty much all the others were used up by the prop rotation. You probably have to understand the reasons behind the extra interchanges but there is reason to believe Lawrie could have been used here.
See what you are saying and it seams that mary is using the interchanges when needed depending on the opposition and the game play.
By the way fizz was hia against canberra and JDB was blood bin.
So that may help.
Yeah so there's 2 interchanges that weren't planned and probably meant that some players were having to spend more time on the field than necessary. Is blood bin a free interchange? Certainly HIA is - so that should bring the total back to 8 at least.
And yeah, it looks like, he's trying to mainly use the interchanges for the props and JDB - which would make sense to have an additional prop on the bench. But with those games you'd have to look at them in more depth to try and make assumptions on why changes were made.
Interesting to note that 2 of Canberra's 3 tries came in the middle 3rd of the game. First 2 of Penriths 4 came in the middle 3rd and the last 2 came in the last 10 minutes - when they had countered our game plan and more than likely drained us of any remaining optimism of making a comeback (last 2 tries were on the back of a penalty and error - frustration at being stifled in attack).
I tend to agree with you but was just trying to explain where that hysteria comes from.
It is not really McGregor's fault because the management of the club are ultimately responsible for his appointment and extension.
But that is McGregor's big personal challenge.
He has a huge task to win over the fans which is both result oriented but also how he projects as an individual and how he represents the club that we love so much.
Your bench analysis was very good and I am going to read it again over the weekend so I can fully understand all your points.
I suppose there are some of us that feel that a more seasoned coaching regime would have a good chance of winning the comp with the current roster and that weaknesses like our three quarter line, would have been sorted by now.
Letting these opportunities go by probably adds to the sentiment.
Thanks for an intelligent dialogue.
I was just listening to a podcast and they think Mary is doing quite a good job and has improved since last year. - the answer to that we will see by seasons end.
They spoke about the top 3.
Dragons: we have the most room to improve. We are in a down period, but most teams go through that. If we can turn it around we will peak at the right time.
Panthers: have the worst roster, so their improvement would come as their injured players come back.
Souths: the most complete team. But they’re also peaking, so they need to maintain this for the rest of the season, which IMO would be very difficult.
The interchange explanation given by TB makes sense. But, would have worked with Host coming on for JDB at the 33 minute mark, to play right edge with Friz shifting to Jack's middle spot. Fittler did the same with Friz in Origin, and worked well.
Good alternative Dorothy. That would give Host 16 minutes on the field and reduce Vaughn's time on the field to 31.
Sometimes it's difficult to maintain a calm demeanour when posting - really difficult
Thanks for the above make interesting reading.
Interchange for blood bin is free as is interchange from a foul play ( eg high tackle ect).
Interchange for hia is free as long as the player passes his assessment.
If not then a interchange will be use.
Same with blood bin if the bleeding want stop.
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