Is John Howard to blame?

[Willow]

"I am yet to see any facts produced in support of your outlandish comment that Americans have killed more Americans than a combination of all the wars in the last 100 years."

I actually said: "more Americans have died at the hands of another American than has ever happened in any war of the last 100 years."

These statistics you have 'requested' are difficult to obtain. But I think I can show enough to put you in the picture... these are approximates and gathered from accurate websites like the FBI, the US Bureau of statistics and Amnesty International.- I avoided gathering figures from websites which has some political or religious agenda. Like I said, it was difficult to obtain...

US fatalities WWI: 116,000
US fatalities WWII: 407,000
US fatalities Korea: 25,000
US fatalities Vietnam: 58,000
------------------------------
Total: 696,000
------------------------------

Deaths domestically:
The FBI figures say that in the 1990s, there were approximately 20,000 murders every year. This isakin to 40 jumbo jets crashingannually in the USA. Puts the WTC disaster into perspective.
The FBI estimate that a homicide is committed every 27 minutes.

In the 1990s alone, about 200,000 Americans died by murder.

The figures prior to this go by percentages., ie how many people died per 100,000 of population. For example, during the1930s figures I can gather that at least 50,000 people were murdered during this time. Its too much work to cross reference all the figures for every decade but I think you're getting an idea now. As the population increased, so does the number of murders. Its worth noting that the murder rate doesnt neccesarily rise (it goes up and down) but the actual numbers go up with the population rises.

I think we can say with some confidence that about 650.000 people have been murdered in the USA in the last 100 years. I think these are conservative figures.

Murders: 650,000
Manslaughter: ?
-------------------
Total:........ what do you think? 1MIL or 2MIL?
-------------------

You see, this figure doent include manslaughter. Manslaughter figures are generally higher than murder figures. Do I have to gather that information as well or have I shown enough?

Then there's vehicle accidents, accidential gun deaths (remember we're talking about Americans that have died at the hands of Americans). And we havent included death by political disputes and public unrest (add approx 5,000) or by lynchings (add another 3,000)
The figure also doesnt include death resulting from neglect. Millions have died because of poverty and in this I include the genocide of the native American population who were still dying in vast numbers up until the 1950s.

I personally don't count these next figures but I'm sure some willsay that we should also include abortions which are conservatively estimated at 80,000 per year. And illegal Euthanasia is on the increase as well.

And then there are the suicides... between 1979 and 1996 alone there were 535,890deaths by suicide in the USA.

Make of these figures what you like but they were gathered by a general and unbiased scan of the facts. Not some indivual interpretation of a single event that was copied and pasted in a moment of rashness.

In any case, the claim isn't 'outlandish'.

Fortunate it may be that we can't go back just a little further... say, to the American Civil war which saw 498,000 Americans die in the 1860s. A nation was born out of this blood letting.

Hows those Coptic Christians going with the vote in Egypt?

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Again, tell me about these other sides? I don't see the Bhuddists, Hindus, Catholics andJews stoning women to death, holding 1000 people hostage in Moscow, flying planes into skyscrapers and crashing jets into government buildings, blowing up nightclubs, strapping explosives to their bodies and blowing up busloads of innocent civilians as a matter of faith, do you? If you do, please let me know. I'll be just as condeming as I am now.
Here's a few; note that I am not condoning either sides actions with this post, just attempting to show that the violence isn't all one sided.

The ongoing religeous violence in India largely stems from the destruction of a historic mosque by a hindu extremist mob, who have now started illegally constructing a Hindu temple on the site. Ongoing harassment of Muslim stallholders and travellers at railway stations by Hindu fundamentalists en route to the site led the some muslims to respond by torching a train carrying Hindus to the site. In response to this atrocity Hindu mobs went on a rampage in local muslim communities beating and killing hundreds of Muslims while police and security forces did nothing.
One of the events leading to the palestinian uprising was a Jewish fudamentalist walking into a mosque and machinegunning worshippers at prayer. It has been tit-for tat between the Israeli military and the palestinians ever since.
In Chechnya the local Muslim population has been overrun by the (secular) Russian military for the best part of a decade. They don'y have the military capability to respond via conventional warfare, hence the cinema hijacking.

 

[legend]

Would the destruction of the Mosque be similar to the Taliban destroying Bhuddist statues that were over 1000 years old? I'm sure you remember that. I think it would also be similar to the Pakistani Muslims storming the Indian Parliament killing manyand also the bombing of Catholic Churches in Pakistan also killing many innocent people, including Priests and teachers.

What about the Taliban sentencing the Australians to death for "allegedly" preaching Christianity in Afghanistan. They only escaped due to September 11 and were used as currency in a deal to prolong the bombings. None of these actions seem very moderate to me.

 

[legend]

Willow, the bold text should suffice nicely although the rest pretty much sums up my case.

1- Copts want the antiquated 19th Century Hamayouni decree be abolished. It is inconceivable to require that the president of Egypt must approve permits to build a church or even to repair a toilet in a church. Mosques in Egypt are being built with no restrictions.
2- Copts want equal air time on the government controlled TV and Radio stations to broadcast there belief to their people. The 15 million Copts living in Egypt pay for the TV and Radio from their tax money and they should have time allocated for broadcasting.
3- Copts want to have the church's trust lands returned. The income generated by these lands was used to provide for needy Copts. The lands were seized by the Ministry of Islamic affairs, even though the courts had ordered that the lands must be returned to their legitimate owners; the Copts. 4-Copts want an end to forced conversion of Christian girls, who are kidnapped and raped by Muslim extremists. There are reports of police
protection given to the abductors. 5- Copts want all Egyptian citizens to have the freedom of belief, including the freedom to change one's religion. Christians are welcomed to convert to Islam, so Muslims should be free to convert to Christianity, if they so chose. Those converts are usually subjected to imprisonment and torture. 6- Copts want religious affiliation be removed from national ID cards, job applications,.etc...so Christians could not be identified and discriminated
against. 7- Copts want educational curriculums to be revised to guarantee that they do not contain any denigrating references to Christians and Christianity, but to encourage students to accept and respect each other. Mandatory courses in human rights in all public schools is strongly recommended. 8- Copts want the Government controlled media to refrain from conducting a campaign of hate against Christians, labeling them as infidels, thus creating a climate of intolerance, in which attacks against the Copts can be easily propagated. The media should also allow Coptic programs to be aired. 9- Copts want an end to discrimination in job appointments and promotions. Very few Christians are appointed to key jobs such as ministers, or other government officials. At the present time there are no Christian governors, mayors, chief of police, president of City council or college deans in Egypt. 10-Copts want an end to discrimination in government controlled school admission against Christian students. Very few Christians are admitted to the police academy, military schools. Very few Christians are appointed to teaching assistance positions in all medical collages, pharmaceutical collages, engineering collages and all top education collages. 11-Copts want the Egyptian government to be serious about apprehending those who murder Copts, and to punish them to the fullest extent of the law, and to adequately compensate the victims of these crimes. No killers of Copts have been sentenced to the same punishment as that of a killer of Muslims. Even the terrorist Haridi, who murdered thirteen Christians including small children, in Sanabu in 1992, did not get the usual punishment for murder for his horrifying crimes. 12-Copts want immediate orders be issued to rebuild Kafr Demian village, which was burned down by Muslim extremists in 1996, this must be done at the expense of the State. 13-Copts want certain mechanism to be established to create an adequate representation for them in the Egyptian parliament. One suggestion is to have certain areas be closed to Coptic candidates only. Political exclusion of Copts must stop. The governing national party failed to include any Copts in their list of candidates to the parliament. Hows those Coptic Christians going with the vote in Egypt? I would say they are struggling, wouldn't you?

14-Copts want the center for handicapped children, which was destroyed by the army in December 1996, be rebuilt at the expense of the government, and as soon as possible. 15-Copts want to be treated with honor and dignity inside Police Departments and in the Sermons of Muslim Sheiks in Mosques...etc. There is no
justification for humiliating somebody just because he is different in religion. 16-Copts want to see an end to the religious discrimination that prevails at all levels of the Egyptian educational system, especially in hiring of
teachers and professors, and unfair grading practices aimed at Christian students. 17-Copts want their history, language, and culture be taught in schools and colleges in Egypt where their sons and daughters attend. 18-Copts want to feel that Mr. Mubarak is a president for both Muslims and Copts. They want him to care for them and address their concerns. They want him to meet with their religious leadership, and perhaps pay visits to their churches, something other presidents used to do, but he has never done. This , no doubt, will break down walls of mistrust, and build bridges of tolerance and harmony between Muslims and Christians.
19-Copts want to be allowed to enroll in all schools, which are publicly funded, such as Al-Azhar University, police and military academies, without
any restrictions. At present time there is a 5% maximum place on Coptic enrollment to police and military academies, and this percentage is not even met by actual enrollment. These are just a few examples of the discriminatory practices imposed on Copts. They represent a starting point, and taking care of them will show good faith. The most important thing is that there must be a will to correct the wrongs being done to the Copts. When the will is there, everything else will fall in place. Then, Muslims and Christians will live together, in harmony, as brothers and sisters on the land of our beloved Egypt. This is our hope, and this is our prayer.

 

[Willow]

But you said that the christians in Egypt were not allowed to vote. I just happend to disgaree. My understanding is that that the Coptics represent 10% of the population in Egypt and have representation in government. Show me were they do not have existing representation and that the Coptic people are denied the vote.

Thats not to say that they dont have it hard - I'm sure they do - but you said they were denied the vote and that was my question.

As for all the other stuff. Fair dinkum, we could go on all day...
The way I see it, you have drawn a line in the sand and clearly sided with the USA and the christian viewpoint. I'm not critical of you for this, its your choice. Subsequently, you are of the view that the muslims are causing the problems and the christians are not to blame. Correct me if I'm wrong. But once again, your entitled to your opinion.

I hold that the view that there are two sides to every story.

You make mention of the 1000 people whowere being held hostage by Muslims in Chechnya but you seem unaware of the circumstances that led to this event. That is, the locals being overun and oppressed. This didnt happen overnight.

You make mention of the terrible situation for a young christian girl in Egypt who was abducted by muslims. But you overlook an event in Palenstine two weeks back when an Israeli tank collapsed a house onto a sleeping muslim baby. In both instances, there was a lack of respect for others.

No one wants to talk about the events of Northern Ireland anymore. Things seem to have to settled down there now but not before Catholics and Prostentants both threw their christian vlaues out the door and bombed each other in terror.

The fact is mate, people can be real pricks sometimes. Be it Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein or George W Bush, they are all the same to me. Mad, power hungry types who will stop at nothing to get their way. I don't pick sides.... I leave that up to others.

btw, I madethe effort to answer your query about Americans dying in America.... ....and not a copy and paste in sight either. It got pretty gruesome after a bit. I thought the 40 jumbo jets crashing every year was aninteresting analogy.
Perhaps you could give me your view on this now.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

id have to point out that the press reported at one point in the russian hostage drama that all foreigners were asked to leave. I know there were still foreigners (including an aussie in there), but that was what was reported. That makes me think it was primarily an issue between Chechyna and Russia, and the muslims did not have interest in killing foreigners.

Moffo

 

[Willow]

Whats this story about the gas that the Russians used? Bit of a worry. Who gave the order for that?

 

[legend]

According to the above list of demands by the Coptics, it seems they don't have representation in parliament unless the info I sourced is old and out of date but the same site makes mention of the Bali bombings so one can only assume this is fairly accurate with the present day. In theory, their right to fair representation is being surpressed. It would be like me having the right to vote but only having the choice of the Labor party, greens and democrats. I don't think i'd exercise that right. If the Coptics have no representation as the above list of demands suggests, why would they vote for a party whose agenda was religious persecution against themwhere the possibility of death for simply being a Christian is very real. If I can find the figures, i'll quote you on the percentage of Coptics who participate in national elections but it will take time.

To put your figures about the U.Sinto perspective, we are talking about a country of almost 300 million people and your quoted figures represent less than 0.01 percent of the population which although high in sheer numbers is miniscule in the bigger picture of things. Having said that, there are obvious shortcomings in the American way of life as was evident with the recent spate of sniper attacks in Washington.

You hit the nail on the head when you suggest my view is the Muslims are causing the problems. I did some more research today about Indonesia and there are so many unreported massacres happening to Christians in Ambon and Aceh where the Indonesian military are working in tandem with local militia to rid Indonesia of Christians so I think as a Catholic I am entitled to feel disturbed by these events when the majority and i'm talking 95% of Christians like to co exist with other religions in peaceand I can't honestly say the same about Muslims. My research has led me to believe that Christians in Muslim countries are not offered the same religious freedoms as the Muslims get in Australia. I have yet to bring up the atrocities committed by Muslim militia in East Timor and the Indonesian military who are responsible for the slaughter of thousands of innocent people.

Finally, I only copied and pasted because you said you couldn't get a better argument from me and I felt the best way to give you that argument was sourced information about actual events instead of thinly veiled sarcasm which you found insulting.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Would the destruction of the Mosque be similar to the Taliban destroying Bhuddist statues that were over 1000 years old? I'm sure you remember that.
Yes, pretty much exactly the same.The only difference is there weren't any Bhuddists around in the local arwea to protest.
I think it would also be similar to the Pakistani Muslims storming the Indian Parliament killing manyand also the bombing of Catholic Churches in Pakistan also killing many innocent people, including Priests and teachers.
Hardly representative of the majority of Pakistani people though. Remember that there are 160 million people in Pakistan, and only a timy majority hold extremist veiws. (And given that half of my family are Pakistani Muslims, I reckon I'm in a position to make that judgement.) This number is sadly growing however as extremists open Madrassas (religious schools) in impoverished areas and offer education to poor kids who wouldn't otherwise get it. Unfortunately its the wrong sort of education. Maybe if the government bothered to educate and provide for these kids there would be less extemists.
What about the Taliban sentencing the Australians to death for "allegedly" preaching Christianity in Afghanistan. They only escaped due to September 11 and were used as currency in a deal to prolong the bombings. None of these actions seem very moderate to me.
The Taliban were nutcases and their religious veiws were not shared by a majority of Afghans. They were merely tolerated by the population because they brought order of a sort to a society that had been preyed upon by Warlords for years.
My point was that while most extremism is currently committed by muslim extremists its not exclusive to them and is SOMETIMES provoked by the other side. Do you honestly believe that Muslims are ALWAYS the agressors and the bad guys in every conflict they arwe involved in? I hope not.
I'm sure you know some muslim people, some of them might even be your freinds. Do they seem like homicidal religious bigots to you?

 

[Willow]

I assume that research on Egypt is from Coptic.com

In any case, I don't doubt that the christians in Egypt are doing it hard. Its always a concern when a minority is being knee-capped like this... but they're not alone. The Middle Eastregion is an unforgiving part of the world.

"To put your figures about the U.Sinto perspective, we are talking about a country of almost 300 million people and your quoted figures represent less than 0.01 percent of the population ..."
This has nothing to do with the side debate in question. Is this Legend's way of saying 'I got it wrong'...?

When I said that more Americans have died violently in America than any war in the the last 100 years, you basically said that you didnt believe this and even said that these were 'outlandish' claims... I proved my point and you still can't see it.
Acknowledgment of an opposing view is an asset in any debate. Its also serves well for future debates.

"...sheer numbers is miniscule in the bigger picture of things. "
The 'bigger picture' of things is that the business of revenge only makes things worst.

Bloody westies...!

 

[legend]

I found your statement misleading as it was slightly ambiguous. I thought you were saying more Americans have died through murder than all the people who have died in wars in the last hundred years, not just Americans who have died in wars in the last hundred years. I'll concede I was wrong based on my original assumptions.

Spacemonkey, I agree with your claims about the other side to a certain degree but my point is the religious extremism by Muslims wordlwide is very much on the increase and I can't see this changing with Nigeria and Egypt now working towards eradication and expulsion of other religions, mainly Christian.

This has become a very interesting debate I must say with no insults traded (unless the state of your knees and the broadwater are now derogatory terms???)

Some more info for you to digest.

source: www.copts.net

Commission Recommends 12 Nations for Designation
As "Countries of Particular Concern" The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, an independent
federal agency advising the Administration and Congress, today recommended
that the Secretary of State designate Burma (Myanmar), the Democratic
People's Republic of Korea, India, Iran, Iraq, Laos, Pakistan, People's
Republic of China, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Turkmenistan, and Vietnam as
"countries of particular concern" (CPCs) under the International Religious
Freedom Act of 1998 (IRFA). Under the law, CPCs are those countries which the Secretary finds to have
engaged in or tolerated particularly severe violations of religious
freedom. Once a country is designated, the IRFA requires the president to
oppose those violations by taking specified actions. Such measures can
range from a diplomatic demarche to economic sanctions or a waiver of
action. "The designation of countries of particular concern is one of the most
important human rights acts taken by any U.S. administration," said
Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "The IRFA requires the U.S. to oppose
these egregious and systematic violations, whether the government itself
commits them or tolerates them. We hope to see actions commensurate with
the severity of these abuses." The Commission also created a Watch List of countries - Egypt, Indonesia,
Nigeria, and Uzbekistan - where it found grave violations of religious
freedom have occurred. Despite the Commission's recommendations over several years that Saudi
Arabia, Turkmenistan, and Laos be designated as CPCs, the State Department
has failed to name them. Today marks the first time the Commission has
urged the Secretary to designate India, Pakistan, and Vietnam as CPCs. The
Secretary designated Burma, China, Iran, Iraq, and Sudan as CPCs in 1999
and 2000, adding North Korea in 2001 following a Commission recommendation. The full text of the Commission's findings on each country recommended for
CPC designation can be found on its Web site at [url]www.uscirf.gov[/url]. Copies can
also be obtained from the communications office by calling 202-523-3240.
Excerpts of Commission findings include the following: The Commission found that in China, particularly severe violations have
actually increased in the past year. The Chinese government has
intensified its violent campaign of repression against Evangelical
Christians, Roman Catholics, Uighur Muslims, Tibetan Buddhists, and groups
- such as the Falun Gong - that have been labeled as "evil cults." This
campaign has included imprisonment, torture, and other forms of ill
treatment. In India, the government has tolerated severe violence against religious
minorities. In 2002, at least 1,000 Muslims were killed and more than
100,000 forced to flee their homes as a result of violence by Hindu mobs in
Gujarat State after 58 Hindus were killed on a train in Godhra. India's
National Human Rights Commission found substantial evidence of
premeditation by members of Hindu extremist groups; complicity by Gujarat
state government officials; and police inaction in the face of these
violent attacks on Muslims, in which many persons were shot, stabbed,
raped, mutilated, and/or burned to death. Christians, too, were victims in
Gujarat. Many churches were also destroyed. Although the state government
took some steps to prevent further violence, it has failed to hold key
violators accountable. The federal government did not take preventive
action to impose direct control in Gujarat. And "fear ? is still a palpable
reality" for the displaced riot victims. Pakistan has failed adequately to protect religious minorities from
sectarian violence. Discriminatory religious legislation, including the
blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws, helps create an atmosphere of religious
intolerance. Attacks against members of the Shi'ite minority by organized
groups of Sunni militants continue. Blasphemy charges, often false, result
in lengthy detention and sometimes violence, including fatal attacks,
against religious minority members as well as Muslims. This year has seen
an upsurge in attacks targeting Pakistan's Christian minority. American
journalist Daniel Pearl was forced to "confess" his religion as Jewish
before being beheaded on a training video by Islamic extremists. Although
the government took some steps, it has not brought to justice those
responsible for recent attacks. Despite the proposed madrassah reform law,
too many religious schools provide ideological training and motivation to
those who take part in violence targeting religious minorities in Pakistan
and elsewhere. As noted in past years by the State Department, religious freedom "does not
exist" in Saudi Arabia. The government vigorously prohibits all forms of
public religious expression other than the government's interpretation and
presentation of Sunni Islam. Last year, numerous foreign Christian workers
were detained, arrested, tortured, and subsequently deported. Shi'a clerics
and religious scholars are detained and imprisoned for their religious
views, which differ from those of the government. The Saudi government's
severe violations of religious freedom include torture and cruel and
degrading treatment or punishment; prolonged detention without charges; and
flagrant denials of the right to liberty and security of the person,
including coercive measures directed against women and the extended
jurisdiction of the religious police, who exercise their vague powers in
ways that violate others' religious freedom. The government of Vietnam continues repressive policies toward all
religions and their followers. A Commission delegation that visited Vietnam
in March 2002 found that religious dissidents remain under house arrest or
are imprisoned, including Father Thaddeus Nguyen Van Ly, who was detained
after submitting testimony to the Commission last year. In addition,
government officials continue to suppress organized religious activities
and to harass leaders and followers of unregistered religious
organizations, as well as clergy members of officially recognized religious
groups. The Commission also is very concerned about violations of religious freedom
engaged in or tolerated by the governments of Egypt, Indonesia, Nigeria,
and Uzbekistan. Because the governments of these countries have not taken
effective steps to halt repression and/or violence against religious
believers, nor, in most cases, to punish those responsible, the Commission
determined to place them on a new "Watch List."
Commissioners Felice D. Gaer and Michael K. Young dissented from the
recommendation that India be designated a CPC. Commissioners Leila N. Sadat
and Shirin Tahir-Kheli dissented from the decision not to recommend that
Uzbekistan be designated a CPC. The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom was created by the
International Religious Freedom Act of 1998 to give independent
recommendations to the executive branch and the Congress

 

[Willow]

"I'll concede I was wrong based on my original assumptions."
Fair enough, you flew off the handle... I can accept that.

 

[Willow]

Anyway... before I got railroaded into congesting info from every website imagineable on the topic... the point I was trying to make was that if so many Americans are being killed within America every year... then why is so much attention being directed towards a series of incidents around the world?

As tragic as it was, the planes crashing into NYC only took about 4,000 lives. This is one-fifth of the number who die every year in the US from murder crimes.

A little late in the piece but thats where I was leading....

 

[legend]

If you have a good read of the last article I posted, you will see why there is cause for concern. The 20,000 we talk of will soon be quoted as a daily death toll unless some of these countries change their ways and allow religious freedom. In fact, having had a good look at the countires mentioned, I think you will find 20,000 a reasonable number to start with as a combined death toll in any one day.

 

[Willow]

Legend:
With respect, I think you're reading too much into this.

The concept that marauding hordes are ready to attack is as old as the hills. The fact is, the world is a dangerous and often nasty place but we get on with our lives.

It is my opinion that the greatest threat to human nature is a simple lack of respect. That is, we as a society have forgotten how to tolerate the views of others. In this, I refer to every developed society in the world... religious or otherwise.

This creates local disputes which spill over into wider conflicts and so it goes on.

Islam and Christianity are both aiming towards the same goal.... a society of contentment which is pure and free of sin. This a worthy cause and even an athiest like myself applaud the basic ideal. Unfortunately, there are those who are willing to kill and be killed for this system of belief... sadly, they place their ideals above people.

Both religions have followers who lock their God in a mosque or a church and the go out andfight amongst each other. They peddle disquiet and hatred during the week and then worship God on the weekend. Its a common thread in this age-old conflict.

Quite frankly, I don't believe 'the big picture' exists. Its more of a series of large and small events that bombard us from every angle. Everyone has an opinion and with that we have an infinite amount of outcomes. Some are good, some are not so good.

There are solutions to all this but they dont involve the 'quick fix' of revenge.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Be it Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein or George W Bush, they are all the same to me. You may not like Bush's politics but it is ridiculous to compare him to the murderous Bin Laden.

The Taliban were nutcases and their religious veiws were not shared by a majority of Afghans. Yes but even in a more moderate Muslim country like Egypt there is terrible repression of a religious minority, as Legend has detailed.

the point I was trying to make was that if so many Americans are being killed within America every year... then why is so much attention being directed towards a series of incidents around the world? The issue of US murders is a red herring. These are a series of individual crimes, though when added together they make a staggering number. But that is different from planned terrorist attacks that target specific national or religious groups.

 

[Willow]

"You may not like Bush's politics but it is ridiculous to compare him to the murderous Bin Laden."
Thanks for picking those out that Steve.
I compare George Bush to Osama bin Laden because thats my opinion.
George W Bush came to power under dubious circumstances and he has continued to with a foreign policy that will see things get worse before they get better.

He oversees US policy that which includes amongst other things, the continuation of Third World debt (often disguised as aid).... effectively enslaving one third of the world's population. Australia, Canada and the UK, by supporting US foreign policy is as much to blame as anyone for this.

Millions of people die every year because ofThird World debt and its so unnneccessary. The standard of living in western countries is so high that an easing of this debt would not be detrimental to the West. In fact, it would create a healthier world economic climate.

In 1994, Third World debt stood at something like Two TRILLION dollars.
From 1983-1989 a surplus of $165 billion went FROM countries receiving aid TO the countries who were 'giving' it. Again in 1994, the less developed countries paid out $112 billion more than they received.

A good example of the result of all this is in the famine areas of Sahara Africa. The region pays $10BIL dollars (US) every year to service debt interest. This is about four times as much as they spend on health and education.

By profiting from this misery, the USA have a lot to answer for... in particular, the leaders of the US have a lot to answer for. IMO, this is an ongoing crime and makes terrorism look like child's play and implicates western leaders like George W Bush and his predecessors in ways that Osama bin Laden could but imagine.

Perhaps you think this is another red herring but I'm sure it be successfully argued that the growth of Third World debt can be directly linked to the increase in Terrorist activity.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Willow's point about the link between poverty (via third world debt) and terrorism shouldn't be understated.
If we look at societies in general, there is often a correlation between poverty and religeous extremism/intolerance (Saudi Arabia and some other gulf states are exceptions, but given the unusual pattern of wealth distribution in these nations that is easily explained). As societies become more affluent and educated, members of those societies become less susceptible to becoming breeding grounds for religeous zealots; people actually have something worthwhile to live for and are less likely to pin all of their hopes on a religeous cause. They also become more tolerant of other religions/viewpoints, as they are now less threatened by them. The Christian world was much more prone to anti-semitism and racism in the 19th and early 20th centuries than it is now, and I think that this is primarily as a result of the increase in education and living standards.
Poverty breeds brutality and bigotry, simple as that.