Jason Nightingale 2017

[Crush]

I thought Nighty played well last week. Maybe I am blinded by my respect for him but I still think he is a great winger.
On wingers, I feel sorry for MacDonald playing outside Dugan now. Poor guy will never receive a crisp pass to fall over the tryline like nighty does. Dugan always takes on the defensive line by himself. He dead set bombed a try on the weekend by not passing to Macdonald with an overlap. Instead he stepped back inside and took on 2 defenders.
Anyway, 3 more rounds of Dugan.
I'd rather Mann as my right center.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

What an absolute champion Nighty has been over many years.

But, sadly his time has come. We need fresh legs, size and speed. And while many can look at his try scoring efforts this year, from what I've seen most of the tries he's scored could've been scored by my Grandma.

I suppose it's easy to continue rationalizing an argument to trade Nightingale in for a sportier model.
However Nightingale continues to disprove your theories about his use by date.
He did it again against the Titans.
I think your assessment of Nightingale is too simplistic.
1. He is a specialist right winger playing on the left wing.
2. Defensively he is sometimes a victim of the coach's structures which, by any measure, have proven to be questionable.
3. He is phenomenal under the high ball and has not lost any of that ability.
4. Hi statistics totally refute what you say. His ARM are one of the highest in the club.
5. Do you really want to doubt his finishing ability? The problem with your analogy is that Nightingale has actually got 14 tries on the board. Your Grandma does not.
Conclusion:
Put Nightingale on the end of a decent back line with good combinations and structures and he will score mountains of tries. He always has.
Reliable, professional, expert, try scoring winger with an impeccable pedigree.
The grass is always greener but it is too early to put Nighty out to pasture.

 

[Bests Golden Boots]

I'll be the first to say Nightengale is slow, Proberbly too slow for the modern game.
but we also have slow centres and Nene is no speed machine either.

You need a winger who knows where the try line is, knows how to get the ball over it, I think 14 tries this year proves Flo still knows how to do that.

 

[Bests Golden Boots]

I thought Nighty played well last week. Maybe I am blinded by my respect for him but I still think he is a great winger.
On wingers, I feel sorry for MacDonald playing outside Dugan now. Poor guy will never receive a crisp pass to fall over the tryline like nighty does. Dugan always takes on the defensive line by himself. He dead set bombed a try on the weekend by not passing to Macdonald with an overlap. Instead he stepped back inside and took on 2 defenders.
Anyway, 3 more rounds of Dugan.
I'd rather Mann as my right center.

Mann makes a decent centre, but then if you move him there guess who resurfaces like a bad smell at halfback?

 

[AyiosYiorgos]

I'll be the first to say Nightengale is slow, Proberbly too slow for the modern game.
but we also have slow centres and Nene is no speed machine either.

You need a winger who knows where the try line is, knows how to get the ball over it, I think 14 tries this year proves Flo still knows how to do that.

Has he scored any where he had to run more then 20m, seriously time to retire...

 

[giboz71]

Has he scored any where he had to run more then 20m, seriously time to retire...

Not just that, but our left side is getting more and more exposed now. Titans went that way all weekend.

I love Nighty as much as the next guy but we seriously can't carry him and Lafai together against the speed machines that will go down that corridor all day.

 

[Bests Golden Boots]

Not just that, but our left side is getting more and more exposed now. Titans went that way all weekend.

I love Nighty as much as the next guy but we seriously can't carry him and Lafai together against the speed machines that will go down that corridor all day.

That's more down McDouche and is stupid up and in defensive strategy.
All year both wingers have been running up and in leaving thier opposites to run to the line, if it had been down to defensive mistakes a coach would have fixed the problem, he hasn't, so it's the defensive plan.

 

[Bests Golden Boots]

Has he scored any where he had to run more then 20m, seriously time to retire...

Proberbly not.
Now I've been the first to say that in the modern game the wing is where you blood your young and fast guys, the 18y.o speed machines.

But seeing as how our "coach" refuses to play anyone under 23 who hasn't played badly for 3 other clubs it's a pointless argument.

I would suggest that if a winger were to go it should be MacDonald, he's not as fast as people claimed when he signed, he's not as good in the air as people claimed, not that McCrone could kick it to him anyway, but his attitude to jog back to collect the ball from kicks and just his general lack of effort has left me very underwhelmed this year.

 

[giboz71]

That's more down McDouche and is stupid up and in defensive strategy.
All year both wingers have been running up and in leaving thier opposites to run to the line, if it had been down to defensive mistakes a coach would have fixed the problem, he hasn't, so it's the defensive plan.

Maybe so.

But 2 slow guys on one edge is just asking for trouble.

 

[watatank]

I just don't think Nightingale is that bad. I think he is still contributing and I'm happy for him to play to give our younger outside backs more time. I think having him around would also give a player like Dufty more confidence now he's playing fullback

We have Herbert, Garrick, Lomax and even Sailor coming through and unless we don't expect these guys to play first grade eventually then buying a younger guy from elsewhere is just going to alienate them.

 

[Dragonslayer]

The debate about Nightingale will range on at least till the end of this year and maybe even next year. Too old too slow versus mr. Reliable and mr. Safe.
Having a speedy Winger would that have made any difference to a game plan this year? In my opinion probably not. Our style of play is not spread the ball wide very quickly particular in defense. And yes nighty has scored 14 tries from the more than 20 or 30 meters out, but that's our style of play. Yes a speedy Winger would have scored those tries, hell even I could have scored those tries, but the point is he did!
Our so called power game difuses any quick spread and and if it does get spread it dies with Aitken or Dugan. JAC for example would catch a cold on a very lonely wing. Nighty, to his credit, does take a lot of hit ups and does a lot of bullocking work, something a speedy winger usually doesnt like to do.
Personally, I would like to see him on the bench next year as our utility and have (assuming Aitken will play centre and thats open for debate as well) Mann on the wing.
I have no doubt Nighty was only re-signed because he was a "freebie" for next year and I think he will do the right thing when it becomes time.

 

[giboz71]

I just don't think Nightingale is that bad. I think he is still contributing and I'm happy for him to play to give our younger outside backs more time. I think having him around would also give a player like Dufty more confidence now he's playing fullback

We have Herbert, Garrick, Lomax and even Sailor coming through and unless we don't expect these guys to play first grade eventually then buying a younger guy from elsewhere is just going to alienate them.

Nightingale is a safe and reliable winger and of course he'll do the job. But we need to be aiming higher. If we're going to challenge the top 4 sides, we can't be messing around any more.

We could have kept Duges at FB as well and relied on him being the best defensive FB in the game as a safe option. But we realised we needed something more and Dufty has shown us in 3 games what the possibilities are with a speedy and skilful fullback. Mann could have been an option at 7, but we went all out and got Ben Hunt which was exactly the right thing to do if we're really serious about winning a comp.

I'm personally sick of struggling to make the 8 year on year and keeping Nighty for another year just perpetuates the notion of being "just good enough to make the semis".

Put it this way, would Bellamy, Bennett or Robinson have a slow winger like Nighty on the end of their backlines?

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

I'll be the first to say Nightengale is slow, Proberbly too slow for the modern game.
but we also have slow centres and Nene is no speed machine either.

You need a winger who knows where the try line is, knows how to get the ball over it, I think 14 tries this year proves Flo still knows how to do that.

Once again, please define the term "slow"
I think he is as fast now as he was when he scored a brace of tries in the 2010 GF.
Is he faster than Radradra, Ado Carr, Vunivalu, Oates etc. - No of course not.
Is he as fast as Mansour, Ferguson, Feldt, Goodwin, B Moz (Canterbury version) even Rapana - Yes he is.
The fast/slow discussion is too black and white.
I saw comments about him scoring "fall over" tries but the fact is he is always in perfect position to accept that last pass.
In fact he is a deadly finisher and hardly ever bombs a try.
That is also a huge part of a winger's skill set. It's not enough just being a speed squib.
An interesting slant on this discussion is - what would Nightingale do on the end of the Brisbane or Melbourne back line?
I am thankful Nightingale is in our Team.
He is the least of our problems.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Nightingale is a safe and reliable winger and of course he'll do the job. But we need to be aiming higher. If we're going to challenge the top 4 sides, we can't be messing around any more.

We could have kept Duges at FB as well and relied on him being the best defensive FB in the game as a safe option. But we realised we needed something more and Dufty has shown us in 3 games what the possibilities are with a speedy and skilful fullback. Mann could have been an option at 7, but we went all out and got Ben Hunt which was exactly the right thing to do if we're really serious about winning a comp.

I'm personally sick of struggling to make the 8 year on year and keeping Nighty for another year just perpetuates the notion of being "just good enough to make the semis".

Put it this way, would Bellamy, Bennett or Robinson have a slow winger like Nighty on the end of their backlines?

I can't speak for Bellamy, Bennett or Robinson but Bennett has already answered your question from 2009-2011.
If Bennett had a choice of Kahu or Nightingale you may be surprised at his choice.
Bellamy has an embarrassment of riches with Vunivalu and Ado Carr so, of course he wouldn't trade in one of those for Nightingale.
Robinson on the other hand has Ferguson (<10 tries in 2017) and Tupou (11 tries in 2017) vs Nightingale (15 tries in 2017). Once again you may be surprised.
I am not sure that things are as you perceive them.
Your point about aiming higher is well made but that starts with appointing a real coach who can lead us into the top four and a tilt at a premiership.
Nightingale is not our main problem and he is not particularly slow either.

 

[watatank]

Nightingale is a safe and reliable winger and of course he'll do the job. But we need to be aiming higher. If we're going to challenge the top 4 sides, we can't be messing around any more.

We could have kept Duges at FB as well and relied on him being the best defensive FB in the game as a safe option. But we realised we needed something more and Dufty has shown us in 3 games what the possibilities are with a speedy and skilful fullback. Mann could have been an option at 7, but we went all out and got Ben Hunt which was exactly the right thing to do if we're really serious about winning a comp.

I'm personally sick of struggling to make the 8 year on year and keeping Nighty for another year just perpetuates the notion of being "just good enough to make the semis".

Put it this way, would Bellamy, Bennett or Robinson have a slow winger like Nighty on the end of their backlines?

Our chances of being successful are not going to be dependent on one winger that is probably going to retire in a year. We've made one finals in the past 6 years and have made moves and while we are going in the right direction It's probably going to take time for everyone to play well together. Dufty is probably going to make a lot of mistakes, for example.

Dufty at fullback gives us something different in attack, sure. But losing Dugan means that we have lost his running game, his kick returns and defence at the back at a time where we have won games based on making metres and overwhelming teams. To then compound that with a winger who does so much good work out of our end for someone just because they are 'faster' doesn't make much sense.

As for the coaches, Robinson won a premiership with Minichiello and Bennett played a 35 year old Wendell Sailor over a 23 year old Nightingale. I'm sure Bellamy would be more than happy to have a player of Nightingale's experience at the right price in a different situation, obviously he is not going to swap his current wingers.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Has he scored any where he had to run more then 20m, seriously time to retire...

So what would you prefer 15 tries from 20 metres out or half a dozen spectacular long range efforts?

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Our chances of being successful are not going to be dependent on one winger that is probably going to retire in a year. We've made one finals in the past 6 years and have made moves and while we are going in the right direction It's probably going to take time for everyone to play well together. Dufty is probably going to make a lot of mistakes, for example.

Dufty at fullback gives us something different in attack, sure. But losing Dugan means that we have lost his running game, his kick returns and defence at the back at a time where we have won games based on making metres and overwhelming teams. To then compound that with a winger who does so much good work out of our end for someone just because they are 'faster' doesn't make much sense.

As for the coaches, Robinson won a premiership with Minichiello and Bennett played a 35 year old Wendell Sailor over a 23 year old Nightingale. I'm sure Bellamy would be more than happy to have a player of Nightingale's experience at the right price in a different situation, obviously he is not going to swap his current wingers.

Well said - common sense.
Nightingale (15 tries in 2017 so far) is not our problem.

 

[giboz71]

Our chances of being successful are not going to be dependent on one winger that is probably going to retire in a year. We've made one finals in the past 6 years and have made moves and while we are going in the right direction It's probably going to take time for everyone to play well together. Dufty is probably going to make a lot of mistakes, for example.

Dufty at fullback gives us something different in attack, sure. But losing Dugan means that we have lost his running game, his kick returns and defence at the back at a time where we have won games based on making metres and overwhelming teams. To then compound that with a winger who does so much good work out of our end for someone just because they are 'faster' doesn't make much sense.

As for the coaches, Robinson won a premiership with Minichiello and Bennett played a 35 year old Wendell Sailor over a 23 year old Nightingale. I'm sure Bellamy would be more than happy to have a player of Nightingale's experience at the right price in a different situation, obviously he is not going to swap his current wingers.

We have had various weaknesses and needs since we won a comp in 2010. For years, we had a soft underbelly and were pummelled by bigger packs. That has now been addressed. We had no recognised half since Hornby retired, Hunt has fixed that. We've lacked creativity and skills since Duges has been FB, we've fixed that hopefully with Dufty. The last piece of the puzzle is for years we have been painfully slow and have been exposed badly by quicker sides (Parra and Melb this year are glaring examples)..

The lack of speed is the one thing holding us back IMO. Yes its only one thing, but in reality its the last thing that needs solving.

If we're serious about 2018 and beyond, we really need to solve it

 

[Old Timer]

We have had various weaknesses and needs since we won a comp in 2010. For years, we had a soft underbelly and were pummelled by bigger packs. That has now been addressed. We had no recognised half since Hornby retired, Hunt has fixed that. We've lacked creativity and skills since Duges has been FB, we've fixed that hopefully with Dufty. The last piece of the puzzle is for years we have been painfully slow and have been exposed badly by quicker sides (Parra and Melb this year are glaring examples)..

The lack of speed is the one thing holding us back IMO. Yes its only one thing, but in reality its the last thing that needs solving.

If we're serious about 2018 and beyond, we really need to solve it

Nighty and the LHS side are exposed in defence as they are terribly slow.
The love for Nighty is understandable but the deficiencies in his game when up against speedsters and smart halves that threaten to put the ball in behind him is undeniable.
Other teams with real speedsters have less problems in defence and also have the capability of running down people who make long range breaks and that we can definitely not do.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

The debate about Nightingale will range on at least till the end of this year and maybe even next year. Too old too slow versus mr. Reliable and mr. Safe.
Having a speedy Winger would that have made any difference to a game plan this year? In my opinion probably not. Our style of play is not spread the ball wide very quickly particular in defense. And yes nighty has scored 14 tries from the more than 20 or 30 meters out, but that's our style of play. Yes a speedy Winger would have scored those tries, hell even I could have scored those tries, but the point is he did!
Our so called power game difuses any quick spread and and if it does get spread it dies with Aitken or Dugan. JAC for example would catch a cold on a very lonely wing. Nighty, to his credit, does take a lot of hit ups and does a lot of bullocking work, something a speedy winger usually doesnt like to do.
Personally, I would like to see him on the bench next year as our utility and have (assuming Aitken will play centre and thats open for debate as well) Mann on the wing.
I have no doubt Nighty was only re-signed because he was a "freebie" for next year and I think he will do the right thing when it becomes time.

Just had a look at Nightingale's stats.
He has actually scored 15 tries not 14 which makes him the 6th highest try scorer in the competition.
By comparison, 1 less than Ado Carr which everyone keeps referring to.
He has also made the most Line breaks in the team this year with 14.
Finally, second biggest total of running metres in the Team.
I honestly don't know what more the guy can contribute so he can justify his starting position.