Leftwing utopian nazis

Discussion in 'Four Corners' started by Surely, Jun 1, 2018.

  1. t-ba

    t-ba Coach

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    Yeah, as expected weak as piss.

    Congrats on being utterly unable to form a coherent argument and simply bitching about the amorphous new ageists. Got nothing.
     
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  2. Pete Cash

    Pete Cash Immortal

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    So we have exported terrible shit to sustain our standards of living.

    EDIT

    I will add that these jobs were good for a very brief period of time historically. Look at the average life expectancy in Liverpool England after the industrial revolution. Cutting corners to make some fat cat rich is the rule not the exception (which would be the post war years until they spotted some asians to exploit)

    Even outside of offshoring which you are focused on understandably as a true socialist and not a new ageist who only cares about jobs we should consider the role western imperialism has had on your standard of living. Britain starved Indians to death in numbers that would make any communist dictator blush yet these dont get added to some list of deaths by capitalism
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  3. Pete Cash

    Pete Cash Immortal

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    Its a pretty complex issue man. That is why I am trying to get you to refine your point. It could vary from do I believe that globalisation has some pretty obvious flaws that should be addressed right to do i believe there are 12 jewish bankers in an underground vault plotting the downfall of the white race.

    There are a lot of different view points on this issue.

    As I said i believe politics should be as local as possible, global trade shouldnt be used to just allow billionaires to suck up even more resources like dragons and obviously unfettered liberal capitalism is pretty f**king brutal. However an interconnected global world isnt something that can be stopped.
     
  4. magpie4ever

    magpie4ever First Grade

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    I don't know where you live champ but I would like you to tell that to - say, the Ford workers in Geelong, the Holden workers in Elizabeth, the foundry workers in Port Kembla, the workers at Bonds & Speedo at Pendle Hill & Windsor and many, many more that their jobs were shit and they all were going to die early.

    Wonder how they would feel about you.
     
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  5. t-ba

    t-ba Coach

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    There's a lot to agree with here for me, in particular the role that the superwealthy are playing in this. I'm not particularly comfortable with the direction the global integration seems to be taking as I do feel it is just a rather massive transfer of wealth into the hands of those who don't need it. Though I've lived in Asia for ages I never really noticed it until my wife was posted in a city in Guangdong for a while and even though the textiles factories are apparently quite humane there by Chinese standards the ones I could see (which I assume were potemkin village style seeing as the bordered the expat district and I could walk right by them) looked f**king horrible. I can't imagine what they look like further afield. edit - It's shit like that has me horrified of unfettered capitalism.

    I am interested in how you think it is possible for politics to be kept 'local.' What are your thoughts on the nation state? I'm not sure it's the right model going forward, but it is difficult to see how it will be replaced any time soon. For mine I can see the idea of supraunits say like the EU and ASEAN (But not necessarily those bodies) managing larger affairs whilst other stuff is broken down into smaller units to allow more effective governing of certain areas to be a way forward coming to the fore over the next century and larger and larger regions are integrated into each other becoming more and more persuasive. I think it would be a positive move forward for places like Brittany, Catalonia and say the South of Italy to receive more Autonomy in a wide regional organisation.

    What can you see as methods of getting politics more local?
     
  6. Pete Cash

    Pete Cash Immortal

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    Oh they made cars before world war 2 ??? if not what is the relevance of this ?
     
  7. Pete Cash

    Pete Cash Immortal

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    Also as an aside my dad worked in primary industry (coal miner) so not manufacturing but another job where historically corners were cut at the expense of the workers besides a very brief period historically and he told me that I would be f**king crazy to work in a coal mine because it wrecked his body and that I should go off and study something at uni.

    Maybe he just knew I was a pussy but he would not be offended if someone told him coal mining was shitty work.
     
  8. Pete Cash

    Pete Cash Immortal

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    That is a very interesting question and its not one that is easy to answer at midnight even if tomorrow is a public holiday. I might take the question on notice and have a think about it tonight.

    If you look at a body like the EU it has essentially been used as Germanys third and most successful attempt at taking control of Europe. Of course there are great advantages to the EU and it was created to make a gigantic marketplace where they could compete with the United States. However something that is becoming increasingly clear the economy does not necessarily translate to the desires of regular people.

    I think despite our riches in this globalised world there is a malaise across the west. People are sad and disconnected. Suicide rates are worryingly increasing. Magpie4ever talks a lot of rubbish but he is vaguely hitting on a point where he is threatening to have a bunch of foundary workers come around and beat me up. We want to be making something. Of course we dont want to be exploited either and put into terrible working conditions. I jokingly say that I am a post world war 2 capitalist but I also dont think that can exist any more. What I do know is liberalism is falling to bits. Donald Trump, Bernie Sanders, Jeremy Corbyn, the host of extremist parties in Europe. These are the first signs that the status quo is shaky.

    Anyways yeah I will have a think more about making politics local later
     
  9. magpie4ever

    magpie4ever First Grade

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    Yeah, most here have probably progressed from our fathers & granfathers' work roles. But we are still all working for the man unless we are the man.

    It still doesn't want to make me says to anyone who was born or arrived here and say, worked in a BHP (Bluescope) foundry for 20 plus years; Oh your job was shit, so we decided to ship it overseas so some poor Indian or Chinese bastard could do the same job at a fraction of the cost with extremely sub-standard workplace conditions (compared to the Aussie worker) with regards health, conditions - see Pop we are all so much better off.

    That my friend is globalisation.
     
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  10. magpie4ever

    magpie4ever First Grade

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    You are a little sop, man. A threat - hilarious, what would you say to them?

    Somehow I don't believe Sanders & Corbyn are on the fringe, just on the money regarding the effects of globalisation. Basically saying to the general population, this is shit, you have been conned.
     
  11. t-ba

    t-ba Coach

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    Forgot there was a Holiday tomorrow.

    I think the EU has been a wonderful vehicle for quelling conflict in Europe. Sure, the gigantic American and Soviet military presence in Europe since the War ended has helped as well but I do think the project on a whole has seen more positives than negatives. Going forward I'm not sure how it functions using the current nation-states/Supraunit model it operates under. I guess I'm an advocate of a model that devolves powers to regional units in a larger bloc, which goes back to my skepticism that the 'Westphalian' model is going to be what suits best in the future.

    It's also very obvious that shiny growth are not the be all and end all. And I do completely get why people who have seen their purpose in life disappear and standards of living stall and even lower aren't particularly interested in the fact that growth is up. I also understand why thy are angry. f**k, I'm a little angry, and I'm not even at the bottom of the pile.

    Can't disagree with that. I don't think a model of Basic Income where the bottom rungs of society are essentially left to rot with online games and Soylent green in sprawling slum blocks is the way forward, but I'm not sure the people in charge of the wealth are interested in sharing it in any meaningful way once the work dries up. I also think that parties like the Democrats and the Blairites are away of the obvious failings of liberalism but are too busy keeping their heads in the trough and have thus switched to identity politics, which is become toxic as f**k and is acting as a great distractor to a problem being put in the 'too hard' basket or, more cynically, something they don't actually see as broken. Scary shit.

    But I ramble...
     
  12. Pete Cash

    Pete Cash Immortal

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    Honest question are you actually reading my posts. Anyone alive today pretty much was fortunate enough to live during a period of time where work that has been historically rough was quite decent. This was thanks to unions and improvements in workers rights. I would say pretty much from the end of world war 2. I am old enough to remember family members who had worked on the cusp of this period like grandparents and it wasn't so crash hot for them even in Australia. Both my grandfathers suffered from pneumoconiosis as an example. It ultimately killed one of them. The other drank himself to death so there is that.

    You are romanticising work that has been historically extremely hard. Hell its was extremely hard on the people I knew growing up in Cessnock. My father who worked in mining from I dont know 1980-2013 (so great conditions historically) in coal mines cant straighten his arms because his body is so rooted. It paid the bills and was good secure work unlike whatever exists now (nothing) but if you remove the regulations and pay the work f**king sucks. So when you run around like a headless chicken demanding to know what we have exported that is so bad I would ask you to use your brain please.
     
  13. Bandwagon

    Bandwagon Moderator Staff Member

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    It's interesting isn't it, I mean when you look at these jobs like manufacturing, which were traditionally low skilled , low paid, and tough to do, which have over time became higher skilled, reasonably paid and whole heap better in terms of the health outcomes for the people doing them, yet as they have gone from shit to half decent jobs, we ( global capitalism ) have moved them to places where the social progress made can be removed, and they can be made shit jobs again.

    Which of course the rationale is that competition makes this necessary, thus the improving of the lives and conditions of labour is uncompetitive, and we've got to the point where organised labour is demonised because it insists on holding or increasing these improved outcomes for labour.

    The end result, is a higher and higher concentration of wealth amongst fewer and fewer people. We all get a little more of the shiny, as TBA has put it, ( apart from those left behind of course ) and that is proffered up as the whole thing working as it should. Again however, as I posted earlier, we are to an extent simply externalising the true cost of progress, and until such time as we figure out a better way of accounting for that cost, globalisation will be held up up as a great success.

    Politically, I just can't see it changing, the left have moved so far to the right on these kind of issues that there simply is no real ideological contest. There really seems to be no "legitimate" political voice out there addressing it,
     
  14. Surely

    Surely Moderator Staff Member

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    The root of the issue is the Stockmarket, where growth and growth in profits are demanded by shareholders.

    I would seriously like to see share investments taxed at 60% if they are held for less than 12 months.

    It will never happen though because it would require global rules.
     
  15. Bandwagon

    Bandwagon Moderator Staff Member

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    We already have a tax regime that punishes short term trading through the CGT regime, the 50% discount on capitol gains doesn't kick in until 12 months, and the market prices shares down once they go ex dividend ( usually), so that also acts as a control.

    If you wanted the tax system to address these issues, you'd look at the way in which profits are repatriated, and the mix of loans used to avoid repatriation and taxation, but then the downside is you affect the mobility of capital if you blanket rule a lot of this stuff.

    For mine the way forward is greater disclosure and transparency, combined with a change in attitude towards what constitutes improvement or bettering of society at both a national political level, and a communal one. But that's really pie in the sky stuff as well.
     
  16. Surely

    Surely Moderator Staff Member

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    It’s the mobility of capital I’d like to see addressed

    The original concept was to invest in a business and receive didvidends.

    Not invest in a company for 24 hours, take a small gain, what benefit does that provide a business, zero, it’s all for the traders benefit
     
  17. Bandwagon

    Bandwagon Moderator Staff Member

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    Yet it's the mobility of capital that is at the heart of globalisation, it's a two way st. The idea being to make it easier for nations or states to attract capital, the trade off is that it's just as easy for it to flow out as it is to flow in.
     
  18. mrx

    mrx Juniors

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    Looks like someone is in favour of oppressing women.
     

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