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NRL Expansion. Ideas and opinions.

Who would you admit as the next team into the NRL?

  • Perth

    Votes: 75 57.7%
  • PNG

    Votes: 8 6.2%
  • Wellington/2nd NZ team

    Votes: 5 3.8%
  • Adelaide

    Votes: 6 4.6%
  • Darwin

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Fiji

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Central Coast

    Votes: 10 7.7%
  • Central Queensland/4th Queensland team

    Votes: 12 9.2%
  • Samoa

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Other (please specify)/No Expansion

    Votes: 12 9.2%

  • Total voters
    130

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,320
Why does everyone think Sydney has too many teams

Hasnt been a issue for 111 years

In fact no new teams haveen added to Sydney for 50 years

What was Sydneys population back then ? It was 2.4 mil

How many today 5 mil plus and growing

Technical Sydney can accomodate more teams

Most of the reasons have already been mentioned but another one is it is too easy for players to switch teams. It is too easy for, as an example, Tedesco, to switch from the Tigers to the Roosters. He doesn't even have to leave home. That makes fans sick, it is bad enough when the player leaves your club and moves to another part of the country but when he just moves next door and that club starts flashing him around taking credit for him waving him in your face, people lose interest in the sport over that crap. I am all for relocating several clubs and have the club keep a link to the area.
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,563
Most of the reasons have already been mentioned but another one is it is too easy for players to switch teams. It is too easy for, as an example, Tedesco, to switch from the Tigers to the Roosters. He doesn't even have to leave home. That makes fans sick, it is bad enough when the player leaves your club and moves to another part of the country but when he just moves next door and that club starts flashing him around taking credit for him waving him in your face, people lose interest in the sport over that crap. I am all for relocating several clubs and have the club keep a link to the area.

Just fuels local derby rivalry

Which brings in more fans
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,563
Back then getting 3000 people to games and having a revenue of $5000 was also ok for the clubs! Times change, sports now a business, big business in fact. 10,000 crowds and revenue of $14mill isn't going to cut it. Time is now for all clubs to get their houses on order and grow their fanbase or get out. No more excuses, they have the profile, money, media coverage and soon stadia for most of them. Move up or move out.

When TV started for RL in 1962 and matches were broadcast live from 1967

Has had a big impact on crowds

Not to mention scheduling
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,563
The way I see it is Sydney could keep the number of teams and nothing will happen, but thats the issue, the game wont grow and expand..

I don't think the NRL can sustain 20 teams, so that means that IF they did want to expand into Perth, Bris 2, NZ 2 and Adelaide (for example), at least 2 existing teams need to go (or relocate)..

You could also argue that by reducing the number of Sydney team the remaining teams could grow to become "super-clubs" OVER TIME - obviously the current fans of the clubs would be pissed off and rightly so, but over time the new generations wont even know the difference. If the NRL is serious about expansion they need to consider the future and not the present

For now though I think 18 teams can be sustained and the first 2 expansions areas need to be chosen ASAP so they can be prepared to join the comp, and then the issue of how the next 2 expansion teams are added can be considered

St George v St Merge

St George still has bigger crowds fans etc

So it didnt work
 

BuderusIsaBeast

Juniors
Messages
554
If I was in charge of expansion the goal would be to create a strong 20 team NRL competition.

First step is to ensure the Wests Tigers are based and play the majority of there games out of Campbeltown, the same for the Dragons and Wollongong. This will spread out the Sydney teams and give each team a proper home.

First expansion will be he West Coast Pirates and the Western Corridor bid - name can be Brisbane Jets or another variation. Perth is the obvious 1 while the Western Corridor is my favorite, playing out of Suncorp.

The next expansion from 18 to 20 is harder and alot will depend on the health of the current clubs in 10 years time.

I really like the Brothers bid and can see them being the perfect 5th QLD club. They can play some games at Suncorp but also take matches to Central Queensland and country QLD.

I think a PNG team could also work with the team based in Cairns and flying in and out to PNG for there home games.

There is also NZ 2 which I would lean towards Christchurch as it has a better stadium, on the south island and they have seemed far more supportive of NRL games when taken there.

Plus you have the Central Coast which I belive can easily host an NRL team. Plus Adelaide which would be ideal but they are years of hard work away imo.

For mine - West Coast Pirates, Brisbane Jets, Queensland Brothers, Christchurch Bears.

Oher places can be relocation destinations if a Sydney club is still struggling in 10 years time. In order Adelaide, Central Coast and then PNG
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785
If I was in charge of expansion the goal would be to create a strong 20 team NRL competition.

First step is to ensure the Wests Tigers are based and play the majority of there games out of Campbeltown, the same for the Dragons and Wollongong. This will spread out the Sydney teams and give each team a proper home.

I don't really have an opinion on any of this.

First expansion will be he West Coast Pirates and the Western Corridor bid - name can be Brisbane Jets or another variation. Perth is the obvious 1 while the Western Corridor is my favorite, playing out of Suncorp.

The Western Corridor bid is the best bid of the current Brisbane bids (though it is deeply flawed), but calling them the Jets or linking them back to any club is a bad idea in my opinion, it's basically turning away potential customers for no reason. It'd be best to either create a new name or to pick up a dead brand in my opinion.

The next expansion from 18 to 20 is harder and alot will depend on the health of the current clubs in 10 years time.

I really like the Brothers bid and can see them being the perfect 5th QLD club. They can play some games at Suncorp but also take matches to Central Queensland and country QLD.

No, just no...

Look in theory I have no problem with letting them into the comp, but you simply don't understand the Brothers bid, their goals, or their intentions, letting them into the comp will open up multiple cans of worms that you aren't considering and will cause all sorts of problems that you haven't considered (cause you don't know what they actually plan to do).

Anyhow, I can't be bothered going through this again so I'll just link you to this old post of mine-http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/posts/12783728/
And I implore you to read through their bid material (it's linked in the linked post).

I think a PNG team could also work with the team based in Cairns and flying in and out to PNG for there home games.

Where's the money to fund that going to come from, or how are they going to be commercially viable?

What benefits to the NRL will their presence in the comp bring (that we don't already get from the Hunters)?

What value would they be to broadcasters, sponsors, advertisers?

I'm sorry but any talk of PNG is simply delusional from a business point of view, it'd be a black hole for money and their isn't really anything that we can do to change that. PNG has some problems that it needs to figure out before we can even consider a club there.

There is also NZ 2 which I would lean towards Christchurch as it has a better stadium, on the south island and they have seemed far more supportive of NRL games when taken there.

I don't disagree.

Plus you have the Central Coast which I belive can easily host an NRL team.

Mate they couldn't even sustain an A-league club (which is much, much cheaper to run), let alone an NRL club...

The only way the CC sustains an NRL club is if it leans heavily on the Sydney market to help support it, and the NRL simply can't afford to put more pressure on the Sydney market due to the over saturation. The CC is a total non-starter for an NRL club.

Plus Adelaide which would be ideal but they are years of hard work away imo.

People keep saying this over and over, but exactly what "work" does Adelaide have to do?

I mean business wise they have everything going for them, they are a large untapped market, they offer value to broadcasters, advertisers, stakeholders, etc, they have the corporate presence to support a club, they have an underutilised rectangular stadium the owners of which would give their left nut to get another tenant into, etc, etc.

I mean what more do people want from them? With a good marketing team and a supportive NRL they could support a team now if we wanted, I mean they are literally in the same place that the Storm were in when they started out...

For mine - West Coast Pirates, Brisbane Jets, Queensland Brothers, Christchurch Bears.

Why Christchurch Bears?

Other places can be relocation destinations if a Sydney club is still struggling in 10 years time. In order Adelaide, Central Coast and then PNG

Why?

The best thing to do to a Sydney club if they were to fall over would be to relegate them to a lower level where they are sustainable and give their spot in the NRL to a new club from the place that you planned to relocate them to, not to jerry rig their spot in the comp by dropping them into the laps of a new market that probably doesn't want them anyway.

That way the club is in an arena where it is sustainable, it's fans get to keep the club and don't get disenfranchised by the prospect of a relocation, the NRL gets a new club in a new market, the broadcasters get all their games and a new market, the potential fans of the new market aren't disenfranchised by the prospect of being lumped with a Sydeny club, etc.

The top heavy hyper focus on the top tier in the NRL is a terrible and totally unnecessary thing that causes all sorts of problems and restricts us from capitalising on all sorts of opportunities.
 

BuderusIsaBeast

Juniors
Messages
554
Thats a fair call on the Western Corridor bid. My apologise on the Brothers bid I read an article on the NRl website about the bid and they made it sound far like a far more traditional bid.

The logistics of a PNG team are definetley much harder then any other bid and there are multiple obstacles that would need to be overcome. I think having the team based in Cairns will help aleviate security concerns. As you stated money is the biggest issue but it can be overcome if the right investors can be found, again this is for years in advance who knows how the situation could get better or worse. They are on the radar as Peter Beattie has mentioned them multiple times. There is a reason they werent part of the four I choose to be in a 20 team comp but I belive they do have a case worth considering.

Central Coast I placed as a relocation candidate who I believ would be perfect if a Sydney team is sturggling and needs to relocate. They keep there existing brand in a market still close to the original home. The Central Coast mariners aren't in a great position but there still functioning. Again I didnt have them in my original 20 but still think they have a case worth considering.

My biggest concern with adelaide is they have 5 senior clubs and six junior clubs. Its a very small grassroots system. NRL dosent get great TV coverage in South Australia either. As you said it could done like the Storm where you introduce the NRL team and hope it has effect on the grassroots. If I take Brothers out I would give Adelaide the last spot in the 20. But I think there are issues there.

Christhcurch Bears I think works beacuse it brings the Bears brand back into the comp and the red and black are the colours Christchurch sports teams use.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785
Thats a fair call on the Western Corridor bid. My apologise on the Brothers bid I read an article on the NRl website about the bid and they made it sound far like a far more traditional bid.

Apologies are totally unnecessary, it's not your fault that the "journalists" at the NRL website, Courier Mail, and others that have reported on the Brothers bid have totally failed in their job and failed to research the bid before reporting on it.

Apart from the odd direct quote from people at the bid everything that I've read about the Brothers bid in the mainstream doesn't correspond with their own bid material at all, they are presented as a "Brisbane bid" when they plainly aren't and have no interest in being a "Brisbane bid", and your average Joe can't be expected to verify everything that is reported to them.
The only reason that i know any different than what has been reported about them is cause I take a keen interest in the business and politics side of sport, which even I admit is a strange interest, and actually took the time to look through the Brothers bid material.

I do however want to add that I'm not against the Brothers bid per se, and in theory I have no problem with them taking a spot in the NRL, however I do want people to be informed about them and what they are about before supporting their bid.

The logistics of a PNG team are definetley much harder then any other bid and there are multiple obstacles that would need to be overcome. I think having the team based in Cairns will help aleviate security concerns. As you stated money is the biggest issue but it can be overcome if the right investors can be found, again this is for years in advance who knows how the situation could get better or worse. They are on the radar as Peter Beattie has mentioned them multiple times. There is a reason they werent part of the four I choose to be in a 20 team comp but I belive they do have a case worth considering.

Frankly Peter Beattie doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, he's just saying things that'll sound nice in the media, he and the NRL/ARLC at large haven't done the research but once they do they'll come to the same conclusion that I have that anything including PNG is a total nonstarter and it's all because of internal problems in PNG that they (the NRL) don't have much control over.

I mean %40 of PNG's population lives under the poverty and the majority of the %60 over it still couldn't afford a ticket to the game on a regular basis even if they were as cheap as A$5.00 a match, PNG has absolutely massive crime and corruption problems that the NRL would have to face, and it's not just the players that they'd have to worry about but more so it's the officials, cause mark my words it wouldn't take long for some rogue entities in PNG to start attempting to bribe and/or threaten them, I could go on but I think you get the point.

But the main thing going against PNG is that they simply aren't worth that much commercially, I mean the PNG broadcast market isn't worth anything, and apart from a select few it's not worth that much to advertisers or sponsors either, and if anything adding a club there will subtract some of the value of the broadcasting rights to Australian broadcasters...

PNG is 50+ years away from being in a position to support an NRL club, it's sad but it is what it is...

Central Coast I placed as a relocation candidate who I believ would be perfect if a Sydney team is sturggling and needs to relocate. They keep there existing brand in a market still close to the original home.

But is that the best solution to the problem? I don't think that it is.

I don't want to go into a long thing in an already huge post, so I'll keep it short, basically the hyper focus on the top tier of sport in this country is killing opportunities for growth, engagement, and participation.

Promoting and utilising the lower tiers would probably be the single best thing that the NRL could do for the growth of the sport in not only in this country but potentially all of the Asia-Pacific, making it possible for a club based in Mudgee, Dubbo, the CC, or anywhere really, to gain similar notoriety and exposure to an NRL club and to make it possible for them to become potentially profitable businesses (obviously not of the same scale as an NRL club) would be huge, absolutely huge, and a big part of that would mean legitimising the lower tiers and placing clubs that aren't really up to scratch for the NRL (business wise) into those lower tiers where they can not only survive but thrive kills a lot of birds with one stone so to speak.

But of course for any of that to happen the attitude of what is best for me first then what is best for the sport would need to change...

The Central Coast mariners aren't in a great position but there still functioning. Again I didnt have them in my original 20 but still think they have a case worth considering.

Only cause they have a rich benefactor that owns them and is willing to eat basically all of their loses and pay for their existence, one way or another eventually he'll leave, maybe he'll get sick of funding a losing team, he'll just get sick of eating the losses, maybe he owns them until his final breath, but eventually he'll leave and they'll be right back where they started...

Now if we had a system where they could run a professional/semi-professional club for cheaper than the cost of running an NRL club, but they still got similar exposure to the NRL clubs, then maybe...

My biggest concern with adelaide is they have 5 senior clubs and six junior clubs. Its a very small grassroots system. NRL dosent get great TV coverage in South Australia either. As you said it could done like the Storm where you introduce the NRL team and hope it has effect on the grassroots. If I take Brothers out I would give Adelaide the last spot in the 20. But I think there are issues there.

The only way that any of that is going to change in a place like Adelaide is if the NRL gets more exposure in SA, and the only way that it's going to get more exposure in Adelaide is with a big time professional team based there to compete with the AFL clubs on a day to day basis...

The only reason that the Storm have failed to have a large effect on the grassroots in Melbourne is cause they've taken all that potential investment of time and resources and shipped it to Queensland, specifically to Brisbane and the Sunshine coast. Is that wrong, yes, should the NRL mandate that every club has to invest into local juniors or at least offer incentive to invest into local juniors, yes, but they haven't and they won't cause a handful of powerful people in Sydney won't let that happen cause it would disadvantage their clubs and would make it impossible for their clubs to use others like Canberra, Penrith, NZ, Newcastle, etc, as feeder clubs for their clubs by letting them develop the talent then throwing all their money at the best prospects once they are developed and on the market...

Christhcurch Bears I think works beacuse it brings the Bears brand back into the comp and the red and black are the colours Christchurch sports teams use.

Have you asked Christchurch? Cause they might not be excited by the idea of being lumped with a brand from Sydney lol.

And again is that the best solution to the problem!? Cause it seems to me that out of a false sense of pride (and entitlement, but that's a different discussion) that some people at the Bears are willing to completely corrupt and throw the brand and history under the bus to play in the top tier again, when that probably isn't the best potential outcome to their current predicament.
 
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8Ball

First Grade
Messages
5,132
If the NRL can manage to re-structure the game into a genuine national second tier comp, it would be absolutely ideal. Seems like there is a reasonably good appetite for lower grade footy at places like Lidcombe Oval, Henson Park etc with cheap entry..food etc. I'd love to see the ratings the 1pm game is getting on Saturday.

My pipedream:
-In the short term (1-2 years) a genuine second tier comp involving sides like Newtown, North Sydney, Western Suburbs, PNG, Fiji, Redcliffe, Perth etc (and whoever else) played at fan friendly times. This would create plenty of buzz from fans lost from the super league war. Sides who prove they have the backing/infrastructure/fans brought into the NRL. Match of the round locally to be on FTA (already being done)

-Shortened NRL season with 20-22 rounds. 26 seems a bit much. Some NRL games in the middle of the season just don't feel like they're particularly consequential, leading to lower average crowds. Not a perfect comparison, but the NFL has 16 games per regular season, and it really gives every week an event type feel to every game. Would also help with the player welfare issue.

-Standalone origin/rep weekends with second tier games to fill in the hole for broadcasters. Perhaps even an English style challenge cup type comp. I can definitely see Newtown/Norths v Roosters (or any other NRL side for that matter attracting plenty of curiosity), if promoted properly.

All this would freshen up the rugby league season. I'm not really sure of the logistics/practicality and whether its possible at all given the current broadcast/other contractual arrangements of all this but I think the Wolfpack have shown the way with regards to sponsorship to cover the travelling costs of low budget teams with Air Transat. Can the NRL get a similar type of deal with a budget airline?
 
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applesauce

Bench
Messages
3,573
-Standalone origin/rep weekends with second tier games to fill in the hole for broadcasters. Perhaps even an English style challenge cup type comp. I can definitely see Newtown/Norths v Roosters (or any other NRL side for that matter attracting plenty of curiosity), if promoted properly.

I like this. It is an old idea but yours is unique in regards to scheduling. With rep players out of their respective club sides it would increase the chance of upsets.
 

Band On The Run

Juniors
Messages
441
Ipswich and Perth would have to be the next two

Ipswich is the most rugby league mad place I've been to, can see people there actually switching allegiances if they came in, can also draw support from Toowoomba/Warwick etc. only an hour away (can also market themselves as the Western Queensland team) and because a lot of people in Ipswich don't work (let's be honest here) they can make both the Thursday 7.55pm and Friday 6pm kick-off work for them, Have them play at a redeveloped North Ipswich reserve, walking distance from Riverlink and their train station. Will also gain visitors to the area.

Perth, biggest population base with no NRL team, Force in union gone, time zone can give NRL a Sunday night game or late Saturday night game, high kiwi and saffa population, another no brainer.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785
Though a proper second tier would be a start I think that it can't stop there.

The goal has to be to set up a proper pyramid system that's base starts at the very bottom of the grass roots and reaches all the way up to the NRL at the pinnacle.
The NRL has to make it possible for anyone from anywhere with the resources and an interest to be directly involved in the ownership and running of a club to the best of their abilities.

So what should happen (but almost certainly never will) is the NRL should be looking to place a new national comp in on top of the Qcup and NSWcup. Take the best positioned teams from the NSWcup and Qcup and slot them straight into this second tier, then fill out the rest of the comp with appropriate bids over time, underneath that keep the more regional Qcup and NSWcup as the bare bones of a third national comp (with the Qcup and NSWcup making up the initial conferences) with an open ended policy that anyone that can meet a set of minimum standards criteria can join that competition. Over time once the second tier comp is established open it and the third tier to a one up one down P&R system, this will create excitement, draw investment to the sport at the lower levels, and over time will viscerally separate the most successful clubs from the least in the lower tiers (which will make it more obvious which should be considered for the NRL in the future).

At NRL level ban them from maintaining reserve grade teams in the pyramid (in other words don't allow them to run teams in both the NRL and the second tier/third tier), but mandate that they continue with juniors programs and install a duel registration system so that players who are on the rim of the NRL aren't just sitting on the sidelines when they don't make the team and have a place to go.

Then from there if all goes really well, and everything is working and all the tiers are valuable products in their own right, and the system is working as intended with clubs joining at the bottom then winning entry to the second tier and staying their for extended periods of time and being considered for expansion into the NRL, then maybe the possibility of P&R between the second tier and the NRL needs to be considered, but that's a very long term prospect.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,925
You can’t have P&R and nrl using second tier as a reserve grade via duel registration. Suppose Souths loan 12 players to bears, bears win the second tier comp and get promotion, Souths pull all their players, bears are screwed in year one of nrl life with a poor team, get replaced by winner of second tier who are in same situation and so it goes on.

Not to mention it becomes an unfair competition with some teams boosted by nrl club dual registrations and some not. When promotion is up for grabs it should be an equal playing field.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785
You can’t have P&R and nrl using second tier as a reserve grade via duel registration. Suppose Souths loan 12 players to bears, bears win the second tier comp and get promotion, Souths pull all their players, bears are screwed in year one of nrl life with a poor team, get replaced by winner of second tier who are in same situation and so it goes on.

Not to mention it becomes an unfair competition with some teams boosted by nrl club dual registrations and some not. When promotion is up for grabs it should be an equal playing field.

Who said anything about allowing the clubs to go into partnership with each other?

The NRL clubs being unable to run reserve grade teams includes them being banned from using another club as a proxy for their reserves as currently happens, so Souths loaning all their player to the Bears would never happen in the first place. Besides that though the NRL clubs would very quickly realise that generally it wouldn't be in their interest to go into such deals anyway as it wouldn't be as valuable as allowing the players contracts to go to the highest bidder in the lower tiers.

It's redundant anyway cause 1 up 1 down P&R from the second tier to the NRL would be a very, very long term prospect, we talking 35-50+ years away after the structure is put in place, and even then it may be decided that P&R into the NRL isn't a good idea or is unnecessary, the only reason that I bring it up at all is cause it's the logical progression in going down that path and it's inevitable that it'll be brought up as a possibility in the future.
 

Stormwarrior82

Juniors
Messages
1,036
If we can accept that Perth and Brisbane 2 will be added in the next broadcast deal could this be a option for the Nrl draw?

Rename the qld cup and nsw Cup 2nd tier to north and south conference or something similar.
The Nrl clubs get divided up into those two groups dependent on geographical location. 9 teams in each group.(4 games per group each week with a bye) Each of those teams play each other home and away. 16 rounds.
Then the comp can break for women’s and men’s origin, international games, touch comp etc.
After the break the comps crossover and merge, the teams all play the opposite comp teams once. 9 games (alternate venues every other year) Brings it to ~25 rounds.
This allows teams to have true rival games and allows the comp to have a genuine break in the middle. Then a exciting finish by crossing over the two competitions.

I think this structure has some merit. Can’t see to many downsides of this. Thoughts?
 

Peet

Juniors
Messages
63
You can’t have P&R and nrl using second tier as a reserve grade via duel registration. Suppose Souths loan 12 players to bears, bears win the second tier comp and get promotion, Souths pull all their players, bears are screwed in year one of nrl life with a poor team, get replaced by winner of second tier who are in same situation and so it goes on.

Not to mention it becomes an unfair competition with some teams boosted by nrl club dual registrations and some not. When promotion is up for grabs it should be an equal playing field.
I'm a fan of the American football system of relocating clubs to a more sustainable area. If Wests Tigers go broke & fan numbers go down - send them to Perth & if Manly goes belly-up, send them to Gosford. Adding to the number of clubs can be detrimental to the competition (see 18 in the AFL) & is only considered re TV money, ie extra game. I realize Perth/West Coast would want their own identity, but the South Melbourne to Sydney Swans type relocation would give them a ready-made fan base in Sydney & a ready-made heritage.
As far as a 2nd Brisbane team - just watch the Broncos break away to form their own comp like they did when the Crushers existed!
 

Diesel

Referee
Messages
20,283
Relocation has its merits, it continues a teams lineage and gives existing fans a team to cheer on. I’m sure many Norths fans would rather their team play at NRL level in another city than just playing NSW Cup
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,925
Problem with relocation is it is not strategic planning as it may never happen. Is perth supposed to hang around for ever more in the hope,someone goes belly up and there isn’t enough money in the kitty to save them one day?

Not to mention it’s highly unlikley the nrl will sit back and see a strategic club disappear eg Newcastle
 
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