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NRL issue concussion breach notices - huge fines

JamesRustle

First Grade
Messages
6,477
It's an iterative process... players can't be trusted, clubs showing they can't be trusted, so now the fines come... if it won't be self regulated by clubs after this, it will be taken out of the clubs hands.
 

Knight76

Juniors
Messages
2,043
I have no problem with the fines. Elliot should have come off, no question.

My issues is only the NRL's sudden reaction after a journo kicked up a stink.

The NRL happily turned a blind eye to othe inidents in previous rounds.

And once this storm blows over will happily go back to ignoring them again.
 

myrrh ken

First Grade
Messages
9,817
Laughable how Mary says it was just a jaw injury, as if no one has ever been laid out cold by a sock to the jaw
 

JamesRustle

First Grade
Messages
6,477
Laughable how Mary says it was just a jaw injury, as if no one has ever been laid out cold by a sock to the jaw
One of Mary's best! Although he did witness Wado go off after headbutting the footy during that same game, so probably thought it was worth a try to mitigate the fallout.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,411
I have no problem with the fines. Elliot should have come off, no question.

My issues is only the NRL's sudden reaction after a journo kicked up a stink.

The NRL happily turned a blind eye to othe inidents in previous rounds.

And once this storm blows over will happily go back to ignoring them again.

Maybe the nrl has warned clubs previousnrounds and is sick of them ignoring the seriousness of the situation? Coming in the same month mcmanus launched his law suit it is unfathinable clubs would respond by ignoring their responsibilities.
 

myrrh ken

First Grade
Messages
9,817
What really happened when Knights player Brendan Elliot was concussed


By the time Tony Ayoub arrived at the scene of the crime, just past the halfway line on the far side of the ground, Brendan Elliot was already giving answers to questions he hadn't yet been asked.

You heard the result of the swinging arm from Souths centre Hymel Hunt before you saw it; an unpleasant crack of forearm on jawbone, the unmistakable siren song of the cheap shot.

Players want to stay on the field. That's what makes them players. But the decision is no longer theirs to make. Not now and especially when it comes to concussion.

Yet Ayoub needed more proof that Elliot was fit to play on.

He has three decades of experience as a physio and trainer, including stints at the Storm, Bulldogs, Roosters and with NSW and Australia.

You suspect he could spot a concussed player from a thousand yards, but as soon as he arrived he had his face about an inch or so from Elliot's.

Ayoub's first instruction was for him to stay down. Not to milk a penalty, not to have someone sent off. Just take a breath and a moment to take the panic out of the situation as Ayoub checked Elliot's jaw and his neck.

Then he asked more questions after Elliot regained his feet. Then he looked for more clues to determine if Elliot should come from the field: glazed eyes, wobbly feet, talking like Jar Jar Binks.

With all those years of experience behind him, all those matches, all those situations, all that time being around footballers and footy and knowing what's right and what's wrong, Ayoub was convinced Elliot was healthy enough to keep playing.

And that's where this whole concussion debate gets funky. Right there, in that moment. It lasts a second or two, but could end in tears, fines, reputations trashed and potential lawsuits. And, most significantly, brain damage.

On Monday afternoon, NRL chief executive Todd Greenberg emerged from a lengthy meeting and slapped Newcastle ($100,000), St George Illawarra ($100,000) and the Gold Coast ($150,000) with fines for breaching concussion protocols.

To some, it was a knee-jerk reaction following two days of bad press.

Inside League Central, they dismiss this claim. Greenberg has repeatedly said the heavy sanctions were about sending a strong message, not stopping the adverse headlines, and we'll know this weekend how loudly it was heard in club land.

Here's a not-so-bold prediction: any player on the end of any heavy contact from now on will be dragged from the field.

I feel sorry for people such as Ayoub, who are wrongly being accused of either incompetence or recklessly allowing players to do irreparable damage to their brain by allowing them to continue playing.

Ayoub and others are having their integrity seriously questioned. They stand accused of being stuck in the 1980s, mindlessly sending players back into the battle in the pursuit of two competition points.

The NRL has probably got him and Newcastle on a technicality at best.

Under the game's concussion policy, "the loss of responsiveness, when a player is lying motionless for two to three seconds or until support staff arrives", is enough to have him taken from the field.

The armchair critic can watch from home and easily assume Elliot should've come off. "He was out cold! We could all see it!" bellowed one talkback host on Tuesday morning.

On Tuesday, Dr Adrian Cohen, the director of "leading concussion organisation" Headsafe, fired out a media release to reporters quoting himself, applauding the NRL for backing up its own "rhetoric".

"Clearly the education message is getting through, with commentators and fans alike asking questions about why players are allowed to continue with signs they are obviously concussed," Cohen breathlessly declared in his release.

Obviously
concussed?

They're dangerous assumptions to make from the safety of the lounge room. Heavy contact does not always mean heavy concussion.

Indeed, too much of the debate about concussion is focused on what's a "bad look" for the game instead of what is "bad practice" from those placed in positions to protect a player's health and wellbeing.

Since the NRL introduced concussion guidelines in 2014, the number of players taken from the field for assessment has increased significantly.

In 2014, 155 players were taken off for HIAs. In 2015, it was 210. In 2016, it was 276. Last year, 66 per cent of players were allowed back onto the field, which suggests on-field trainers are erring on the side of caution instead of endangering players.

So far this season, nine players were taken from the field in round one for a HIA. Nine were taken from the field in round two. In round three, there were 16.

One of them was Sione Mata'utia, the Knights player who Ayoub ordered from the field in the second half.

Mata'utia already has some concerning history with concussion and he is only 20. He answered Ayoub's on-field questions, but the trainer noticed his glazed eyes and sent him from the field for a sideline assessment.

It came at a delicate time for Newcastle, who were already down on players late in the match, including Elliot, who was removed after suffering a concussion in the second half.

It's the reason why Knights coach Nathan Brown flagged the idea of an 18th man to aid clubs with concussed players. NRL coaches knocked back the idea 18 months ago, a sure sign that they're suspicious of each other exploiting the free interchange.

Despite what some might think, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone in the game that doesn't treat concussion seriously.

And if you don't think it's an important issue, if you think it's another indication of a game gone soft, consider the recent conversation I had with a former player, who was a forward in the 1980s.

Like all of them back then, he often kept playing despite a heavy concussion early in a game.

"How old are you these days, mate?" I asked, just out of interest.

"I'm 55. How good am I goin'?"

Goin' good until I checked the records. He's 52.

...

I reckon the article makes this physio look much worse, despite the author's protestations.

Looks like the "armchair" criticism is warranted.
 

ed-grimley

Bench
Messages
2,552
The real problem remains - half a dozen NRL players will be concussed weekly.
Maybe any player concussed should have a mandatory week's holiday.
The real problem is the long-term effect on players - the NRL will become more aware of this as the McManus type cases go before the courts.
 

Knight76

Juniors
Messages
2,043
The staying down thing is rubbish.

If a player is belted in a tackle they may be dazed by it but not concussed. They may have a neck injury and not want to move, told by the trainer to stay down and tested for jaw, neck injuries.

Elliots tackle on the weekend, I think it was hunts, he stayed down, and went through various tests, can you squeeze my hand, feel this etc. Those tests had nothing to do with concussion. Though he was hit in the head.

It's a stupid stipulation to put in the guidelines. Falling to ground without protecting themselves sure. Laying completely motionless for a few seconds sure. Most players will move when belted to the ground.

But slow to rise is not going to work.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
I reckon the article makes this physio look much worse, despite the author's protestations.

Looks like the "armchair" criticism is warranted.

How do you come to this conclusion?
He showed no signs of concussion to the trainer.

As I said earlier, if the rule is that anyone who stays down for a bit has to come off, then so be it, I can accept that - although I don't want to see players coming off every 5 minutes for a bump. There simply has to be an acceptance of some level of risk in playing Rugby League, especially professionally.

But the increasingly trending view from the couch that any head knock = definite concussion is nonsense.

As for "emergency 18th man".
Why do we insist on complicating everything. Pointless rules makes for exploitable loopholes.
If we need an 18th man, just extend the standard bench to 18. Don't put emergency stipulations on it. I think this would be a good idea taking into account the higher safety standards expected of the modern game.
 

Hawkins

Juniors
Messages
1,993
As for "emergency 18th man".
Why do we insist on complicating everything. Pointless rules makes for exploitable loopholes.
If we need an 18th man, just extend the standard bench to 18. Don't put emergency stipulations on it. I think this would be a good idea taking into account the higher safety standards expected of the modern game.

This has my vote.
 

myrrh ken

First Grade
Messages
9,817
Elliott dropped like a sack of spuds and didn't move.

Clearly what Ayoub believes is the flags for concussion doesn't accord with the NRL's policy. There was a fair chance he lost consciousness and that's why he needed to have an HIA to be sure.

But you don't even need to lose consciousness to have a grade 1 concussion. Being dazed might well be enough.

Something has to happen. The biff, the shoulder charge have all gone by the wayside. You've got former hard men Mario Fenech and Ian Roberts speaking up about brain damage they've suffered from playing concussed. the risks have to be managed.

As a bonus - club based headgear sales might go through the roof.
 

themacemaceman

Juniors
Messages
1,086
Every week we see different interpretations on the rules of the game in regards to obstruction, downward pressure Etc etc.
If we can't get that right how are we going to get a much more complex interpretation right in regards to concusssion.

Unfortunately not all humans are going to interpret a Set of rules or laws the same.
This is why we have a legal system.
 

themacemaceman

Juniors
Messages
1,086
What really happened when Knights player Brendan Elliot was concussed


By the time Tony Ayoub arrived at the scene of the crime, just past the halfway line on the far side of the ground, Brendan Elliot was already giving answers to questions he hadn't yet been asked.

You heard the result of the swinging arm from Souths centre Hymel Hunt before you saw it; an unpleasant crack of forearm on jawbone, the unmistakable siren song of the cheap shot.

Players want to stay on the field. That's what makes them players. But the decision is no longer theirs to make. Not now and especially when it comes to concussion.

Yet Ayoub needed more proof that Elliot was fit to play on.

He has three decades of experience as a physio and trainer, including stints at the Storm, Bulldogs, Roosters and with NSW and Australia.

You suspect he could spot a concussed player from a thousand yards, but as soon as he arrived he had his face about an inch or so from Elliot's.

Ayoub's first instruction was for him to stay down. Not to milk a penalty, not to have someone sent off. Just take a breath and a moment to take the panic out of the situation as Ayoub checked Elliot's jaw and his neck.

Then he asked more questions after Elliot regained his feet. Then he looked for more clues to determine if Elliot should come from the field: glazed eyes, wobbly feet, talking like Jar Jar Binks.

With all those years of experience behind him, all those matches, all those situations, all that time being around footballers and footy and knowing what's right and what's wrong, Ayoub was convinced Elliot was healthy enough to keep playing.

And that's where this whole concussion debate gets funky. Right there, in that moment. It lasts a second or two, but could end in tears, fines, reputations trashed and potential lawsuits. And, most significantly, brain damage.

On Monday afternoon, NRL chief executive Todd Greenberg emerged from a lengthy meeting and slapped Newcastle ($100,000), St George Illawarra ($100,000) and the Gold Coast ($150,000) with fines for breaching concussion protocols.

To some, it was a knee-jerk reaction following two days of bad press.

Inside League Central, they dismiss this claim. Greenberg has repeatedly said the heavy sanctions were about sending a strong message, not stopping the adverse headlines, and we'll know this weekend how loudly it was heard in club land.

Here's a not-so-bold prediction: any player on the end of any heavy contact from now on will be dragged from the field.

I feel sorry for people such as Ayoub, who are wrongly being accused of either incompetence or recklessly allowing players to do irreparable damage to their brain by allowing them to continue playing.

Ayoub and others are having their integrity seriously questioned. They stand accused of being stuck in the 1980s, mindlessly sending players back into the battle in the pursuit of two competition points.

The NRL has probably got him and Newcastle on a technicality at best.

Under the game's concussion policy, "the loss of responsiveness, when a player is lying motionless for two to three seconds or until support staff arrives", is enough to have him taken from the field.

The armchair critic can watch from home and easily assume Elliot should've come off. "He was out cold! We could all see it!" bellowed one talkback host on Tuesday morning.

On Tuesday, Dr Adrian Cohen, the director of "leading concussion organisation" Headsafe, fired out a media release to reporters quoting himself, applauding the NRL for backing up its own "rhetoric".

"Clearly the education message is getting through, with commentators and fans alike asking questions about why players are allowed to continue with signs they are obviously concussed," Cohen breathlessly declared in his release.

Obviously
concussed?

They're dangerous assumptions to make from the safety of the lounge room. Heavy contact does not always mean heavy concussion.

Indeed, too much of the debate about concussion is focused on what's a "bad look" for the game instead of what is "bad practice" from those placed in positions to protect a player's health and wellbeing.

Since the NRL introduced concussion guidelines in 2014, the number of players taken from the field for assessment has increased significantly.

In 2014, 155 players were taken off for HIAs. In 2015, it was 210. In 2016, it was 276. Last year, 66 per cent of players were allowed back onto the field, which suggests on-field trainers are erring on the side of caution instead of endangering players.

So far this season, nine players were taken from the field in round one for a HIA. Nine were taken from the field in round two. In round three, there were 16.

One of them was Sione Mata'utia, the Knights player who Ayoub ordered from the field in the second half.

Mata'utia already has some concerning history with concussion and he is only 20. He answered Ayoub's on-field questions, but the trainer noticed his glazed eyes and sent him from the field for a sideline assessment.

It came at a delicate time for Newcastle, who were already down on players late in the match, including Elliot, who was removed after suffering a concussion in the second half.

It's the reason why Knights coach Nathan Brown flagged the idea of an 18th man to aid clubs with concussed players. NRL coaches knocked back the idea 18 months ago, a sure sign that they're suspicious of each other exploiting the free interchange.

Despite what some might think, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone in the game that doesn't treat concussion seriously.

And if you don't think it's an important issue, if you think it's another indication of a game gone soft, consider the recent conversation I had with a former player, who was a forward in the 1980s.

Like all of them back then, he often kept playing despite a heavy concussion early in a game.

"How old are you these days, mate?" I asked, just out of interest.

"I'm 55. How good am I goin'?"

Goin' good until I checked the records. He's 52.

...

I reckon the article makes this physio look much worse, despite the author's protestations.

Looks like the "armchair" criticism is warranted.
An interesting perspective.
Maybe Greenberg and the Boffins need to get there runners on and turn up to a few games and actually get involved in some real scenarios were players have suspected concussions.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,441
What really happened when Knights player Brendan Elliot was concussed


By the time Tony Ayoub arrived at the scene of the crime, just past the halfway line on the far side of the ground, Brendan Elliot was already giving answers to questions he hadn't yet been asked.

You heard the result of the swinging arm from Souths centre Hymel Hunt before you saw it; an unpleasant crack of forearm on jawbone, the unmistakable siren song of the cheap shot.

Players want to stay on the field. That's what makes them players. But the decision is no longer theirs to make. Not now and especially when it comes to concussion.

Yet Ayoub needed more proof that Elliot was fit to play on.

He has three decades of experience as a physio and trainer, including stints at the Storm, Bulldogs, Roosters and with NSW and Australia.

You suspect he could spot a concussed player from a thousand yards, but as soon as he arrived he had his face about an inch or so from Elliot's.

Ayoub's first instruction was for him to stay down. Not to milk a penalty, not to have someone sent off. Just take a breath and a moment to take the panic out of the situation as Ayoub checked Elliot's jaw and his neck.

Then he asked more questions after Elliot regained his feet. Then he looked for more clues to determine if Elliot should come from the field: glazed eyes, wobbly feet, talking like Jar Jar Binks.

With all those years of experience behind him, all those matches, all those situations, all that time being around footballers and footy and knowing what's right and what's wrong, Ayoub was convinced Elliot was healthy enough to keep playing.

And that's where this whole concussion debate gets funky. Right there, in that moment. It lasts a second or two, but could end in tears, fines, reputations trashed and potential lawsuits. And, most significantly, brain damage.

On Monday afternoon, NRL chief executive Todd Greenberg emerged from a lengthy meeting and slapped Newcastle ($100,000), St George Illawarra ($100,000) and the Gold Coast ($150,000) with fines for breaching concussion protocols.

To some, it was a knee-jerk reaction following two days of bad press.

Inside League Central, they dismiss this claim. Greenberg has repeatedly said the heavy sanctions were about sending a strong message, not stopping the adverse headlines, and we'll know this weekend how loudly it was heard in club land.

Here's a not-so-bold prediction: any player on the end of any heavy contact from now on will be dragged from the field.

I feel sorry for people such as Ayoub, who are wrongly being accused of either incompetence or recklessly allowing players to do irreparable damage to their brain by allowing them to continue playing.

Ayoub and others are having their integrity seriously questioned. They stand accused of being stuck in the 1980s, mindlessly sending players back into the battle in the pursuit of two competition points.

The NRL has probably got him and Newcastle on a technicality at best.

Under the game's concussion policy, "the loss of responsiveness, when a player is lying motionless for two to three seconds or until support staff arrives", is enough to have him taken from the field.

The armchair critic can watch from home and easily assume Elliot should've come off. "He was out cold! We could all see it!" bellowed one talkback host on Tuesday morning.

On Tuesday, Dr Adrian Cohen, the director of "leading concussion organisation" Headsafe, fired out a media release to reporters quoting himself, applauding the NRL for backing up its own "rhetoric".

"Clearly the education message is getting through, with commentators and fans alike asking questions about why players are allowed to continue with signs they are obviously concussed," Cohen breathlessly declared in his release.

Obviously
concussed?

They're dangerous assumptions to make from the safety of the lounge room. Heavy contact does not always mean heavy concussion.

Indeed, too much of the debate about concussion is focused on what's a "bad look" for the game instead of what is "bad practice" from those placed in positions to protect a player's health and wellbeing.

Since the NRL introduced concussion guidelines in 2014, the number of players taken from the field for assessment has increased significantly.

In 2014, 155 players were taken off for HIAs. In 2015, it was 210. In 2016, it was 276. Last year, 66 per cent of players were allowed back onto the field, which suggests on-field trainers are erring on the side of caution instead of endangering players.

So far this season, nine players were taken from the field in round one for a HIA. Nine were taken from the field in round two. In round three, there were 16.

One of them was Sione Mata'utia, the Knights player who Ayoub ordered from the field in the second half.

Mata'utia already has some concerning history with concussion and he is only 20. He answered Ayoub's on-field questions, but the trainer noticed his glazed eyes and sent him from the field for a sideline assessment.

It came at a delicate time for Newcastle, who were already down on players late in the match, including Elliot, who was removed after suffering a concussion in the second half.

It's the reason why Knights coach Nathan Brown flagged the idea of an 18th man to aid clubs with concussed players. NRL coaches knocked back the idea 18 months ago, a sure sign that they're suspicious of each other exploiting the free interchange.

Despite what some might think, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone in the game that doesn't treat concussion seriously.

And if you don't think it's an important issue, if you think it's another indication of a game gone soft, consider the recent conversation I had with a former player, who was a forward in the 1980s.

Like all of them back then, he often kept playing despite a heavy concussion early in a game.

"How old are you these days, mate?" I asked, just out of interest.

"I'm 55. How good am I goin'?"

Goin' good until I checked the records. He's 52.

...

I reckon the article makes this physio look much worse, despite the author's protestations.

Looks like the "armchair" criticism is warranted.


Hmm I like the part where the journo starts schooling the doctor who is a director of a concussion organisation about concussions, lol f**k off webster you muppet. Talk about armchair experts. If this concussion expert doctor says they were showing obvious signs of concussion then it's fair to say they should of come off for the test.
 

myrrh ken

First Grade
Messages
9,817
Not sure about the injury reserve. It's much simpler to just leave as is and let teams adapt and manage their bench better.

However if a player gets concussed due to foul play. that's an advantage to the fouling team. The injured team should then be allowed to unlock an injury reserve. Bit messy though
 

myrrh ken

First Grade
Messages
9,817
Hmm I like the part where the journo starts schooling the doctor who is a director of a concussion organisation about concussions, lol f**k off webster you muppet. Talk about armchair experts. If this concussion expert doctor says they were showing obvious signs of concussion then it's fair to say they should of come off for the test.
A specialist doctor vs a trainer experienced in old school "run it off" assessments who can't get his own age right.
 

jc155776

Coach
Messages
13,208
Hahaha..

Journalist looking out for his sources and protecting their relatives.

Webster is a fraud. Remember the anti-Ennis agenda to help his brother in law Ricky?
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,411
You can sethe way Elliot ploughed head first into the ground with no attempt or to protect his fall that he was concussed on the way down. Not sure how the trainer or dr couldn't see any signs?
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
31,835
Not sure about the injury reserve. It's much simpler to just leave as is and let teams adapt and manage their bench better.

However if a player gets concussed due to foul play. that's an advantage to the fouling team. The injured team should then be allowed to unlock an injury reserve. Bit messy though

Easier to just have the person who is responsible for the concussion also removed from the field than f**k around with injury reserves.

If the ref did not deem it a send off offence at the time, then the team is allowed to replace the player (with loss of interchange) on the field so its still 13v13, but the offending player takes no more part in the game leaving both teams playing with a 3 man bench
 

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