Reserve grade our best hope of expansion?

Discussion in 'NRL Expansion' started by Perth Red, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    with it being clear we aren't going to see nrl expansion anytime soon will we see the much talked about expansion of the next level? We've heard about Perth and Fiji maybe joining nsw cup and now Mal is calling for NT to join qland cup. Likely or just more expansion hot air?


    RUGBY League legend Mal Meninga says it makes “enormous sense” for a Northern Territory outfit to join the Queensland Cup in the future.

    Speaking to the NT News in Darwin after attending NRL NT’s Frank Johnson Medal Awards, the Kangaroos coach said the $25 million reconstruction of Warren Park would open avenues for the game, including a Top End team in a NRL second-tier competition.

    “I would love to see a Northern Territory team play in the Queensland Intrust Super Cup,” he said. “Having a better facility, particularly a rectangle field, it can only aid pushing towards something like that. It provides an opportunity to do an array of things, having a better stadium.

    “Our master plan is to have this great NRL competition and off the back of that, each club will have feeder teams — and the NT makes enormous sense to fit in there.”

    The Papua New Guinea Hunters were included in the Queensland Cup in 2013 and won this season’s minor premiership, while there is a push for a Fijian side to join the NSW Cup, led by former Queensland star Petero Civoniceva.

    Meninga said a modern rugby league stadium would set up the game’s future in the Top End.

    “I understand there’s been negative reaction from the local clubs (about Warren Park’s redevelopment) but playing matches there each weekend would be great,” he said.

    “You have to have the facilities to attract better participation.

    “You have to have high quality games so people can get along to them and get excited by them and start buying into our game.”

    http://www.ntnews.com.au/sport/mal-...e/news-story/07209af69972b3f1bdc48167a749f1e4
     
  2. dimitri

    dimitri First Grade

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    id say regardless, we'd want to have a NSW Cup team a year or two before going into first grade.

    Build club from ground up, blood youngsters, get people excited...build news content...a story etc
     
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  3. siv

    siv Bench

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    We keep muddling up two requirements

    Professional full-time development pathway run by NRL clubs with a squad of 40-60. As 17 players is never enough to run a FG operation running on a $10 mil grant

    Verses

    Part-time player second tier competition that runs within it funding means on a $500k grant
     
  4. Hello, I'm The Doctor

    Hello, I'm The Doctor First Grade

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    There is so much potential in the State Championship!!!

    Only so many locations can support NRL teams and there are only so many places for teams. But State Championship clubs can be run at fairly low cost and it isnt much of a problem if a team tries to enter and dies after 5 years, so there is heaps of room for risky bids.

    I want to see this broken down into smaller divisions that the 2 states (to limit travel costs) with the goal of introducing as many teams as possible. Have the best teams come together at the end of the year for a play-off series ending as a curtain raiser for the NRL GF to give the comp prestige and give local, semi-pro players the hope of playing on the biggest stage.

    Places like the NT or regional NSW/QLD or suburban Melbourne/Perth will never have their own NRL teams, but in this comp we could have a team in all of these locations....
     
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  5. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Juniors

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    I was thinking about this a while a go and I reckon that the ARLC should bastardise the Qcup and NSWcup into a national competition to support growth.
    However if they ever did attempt it they wouldn't do it properly because they'd need to take the control of it away from the QRL and NSWRL and give it to the NRL to control, they'd also have to make it standalone from the NRL competition (apart from sharing players) and I simply don't think that they'd be willing to do that and if they did attempt to do it I feel like there'd be a backlash from a minority of stupid people that have been whipped into a frenzy by media people trying to make a story and NSWRL and QRL who don't want to lose power or control of their comps.

    For example for it to ever work and be a commercially viable product in it's own right you'd have to kick out all the NRL club run teams (so no Bulldogs NRL team and Bulldogs NSWcup team), ban the development deals between NRL clubs and second tier clubs, introduce a duel registration (which would pull the RLPA into the thick of it which would make another hurdle to jump), etc, etc.

    So basically I feel like if does ever happen it'll be half arsed and not really be all it could be (basically the current system with a handful of clubs from new markets tacked on), because I don't feel that the ARLC or NRL have the balls to ever walk into a mine field like that, let alone come out the other side of it.

    If it was to happen though you'd aim for something like a competition with 8 regional conferences, with conference champions playing in a joint final series, and if you were really ambitious then down the road you'd add another tier below with the same structure and one up one down P&R between the two.
    A structure like that would allow room for clubs from literally anywhere to join (if they can meet some minimum standards) without having the smaller clubs hindering the bigger clubs from growing as big as possible (potentially so big that they out grow the competition and are considered for expansion of the NRL), and also stop the clubs in the competition from hindering expansion of the competition.
    It'd also give clubs that are no longer wanted in the NRL somewhere to go where they can keep their identity and still play in a professional RL competition, which'd make rationalising the NRL a lot simpler.

    It's all academic though, because as I said the ARLC and NRL don't have the balls to push such a radical change in the system from the drawing board to reality (even though it's basically a scaled up version of the English structure without the P&R between the second tier (championship) and first tier (Superleague).
     
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  6. siv

    siv Bench

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    You can remove all NRL clubs from the NSW Cup by a simple process of setting up National RG

    Then all NSW Cup clubs can compete financially on a equal footing

    But I would support country regional division teams with a extra $250k travel costs

    And if a interstate team joins then $500k extra grant

    I also would prefer a NZ Cup setup along the same lines

    PNG Cup is already well setup

    And maybe a Pacific Islands Cup of 8 teams

    You can always run a Tier 3 layer on local geographic basis
     
  7. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    I guess the ideal would be a nrl reserve grade and then a nrl2 division. NRL2 may be a couple of conferences with an NFL style end of season play off. Semi professional clubs.
    Pacific conference
    PNG
    NT
    Samoa
    Qland

    Australiasia conference
    Nz
    Vic
    Wa
    Fiji
    NSW

    Ten teams in each conference. Nsw and qland teams to be funded by pokie dens, other teams to be funded by an nrl expansion fund. Tv deal with a fta and digital provider.

    I can't believe broke arse basket case ARU can run national second division and yet we still have no national second division!

    Then would come NRL3 which would be the state/country based amateur leagues.
     
  8. Hello, I'm The Doctor

    Hello, I'm The Doctor First Grade

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    Dont think the situation is as difficult as you say, i think it coul all be created at a good standard within the existing structures...

    NSWRL and QRL could be give control of all divisions within their states. Even if they wanted to play a shorter season for whatever reason, all the State Championship would require is that they elect division champions by a set time to compete in the finals.

    I also dont see a problem in a few sydney teams holding all of the Reserve NRL talent as they act as feeder clubs. Not every competition needs to be perfectly even; country teams would enter the comp knowing its a David-Goliath story.

    I dont want NRL brandedteams in the comp (mostly because i think that badge jersey needs to be a privilage only the top players recieve) bit club colours and a name in reference (Wests Cubs, Canterberry Pups) are fine.
     
  9. Hello, I'm The Doctor

    Hello, I'm The Doctor First Grade

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    I just dont see any value at all in a Nats reserve grade...

    You put a huge travel cost on the clubs without any new revenue (will anyone pay extra to see the early game?)

    You remove all of the best players from the state comps where you get to watch high level footy in a suburban ground and lock the in the big stadiums.

    And you get nothing in terms of development that a State comp couldnt achieve
     
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  10. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Juniors

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    Maybe, but I can't see any broadcasters picking up the TV and or streaming rights for any lower grade RL competition in the current structures (apart from a game of the round situation, which wouldn't give it enough coverage to legitimise it to the wider public), and that'd be needed to start building at least some degree of legitimacy for the competition.

    Just my opinion though.

    Firstly if they wanted to play a shorter season or rearrange their conferences seasons then it'd f##k any chance of cross conference games and make the competition look like a handful of state competitions that come together for a champions league at the end of the year, and that would be negative in a lot of ways but the main reason is that it'd invite broadcasters to only buy the rights to the finals/champions league which would make it almost impossible for 90% of the clubs in the competition to get the amount of exposure that they would need to make their sponsorship money valuable enough for their clubs to be viable long term businesses in what at the end of the day would be a national competition.

    Secondly you can bet your arse that every year or so the NSWRL or QRL would come out bitching about how their getting the short end of the stick in some way with the NRL and effectively using the threat of pulling themselves and the clubs in their state out of the competition as black mail to get what they want out of the NRL.

    I'd be a classic example of to many chiefs and not enough Indians, with power plays and everybody pulling in different directions trying to meet their agendas.

    It's not so much the evenness of the competition that I'd be worried about(in a competition of the scale that I'm talking about, possibly 30-40+ teams at any one time and vast differences in the size of markets that the clubs are based in, an even competition is impossible), it'd be NRL clubs like the Broncos who have better access to larger amounts of third party agreements hoarding talent in the second tier on better money then the players are worth just so that their competitors can't sign them, we already see this now with players playing second grade on contracts with the Broncos, Roosters, etc, opting to stay in second grade over playing for a Newcastle or GC because they're basically getting the same money once third parties are taken into account, but the problem would be amplified because they'd be hoarding talent from making a real difference in the growth of the sport in new markets as well now.

    The other things I'd be worried about is potential owners opting to put their money into existing clubs that can compete with the NRL backed clubs (or the NRL clubs NSWcup teams themselves) over investing in their juniors club from Tamworth/wherever and taking them into the next level, and people from places like Perth or Adelaide seeing the competition as a waste of time because any players worth having are instantly snapped up by the clubs that can offer a better chance at an NRL spot killing any hope (no matter how distant) of them ever competing in the comp, basically you'd be creating clubs with a direct line to the NRL and clubs without which would slant the players market incredibly to the point where you'd get players signing for way less money to play for the "West Cubs" who don't even really get a run in their second teir team instead of staying in Tamworth or Adelaide where they can make a difference and are star players, and that'd be a bad thing as it'd kill all hope of allowing the best run new clubs to rise, kill almost any hope the competition would have as being seen as a viable alternative to the NRL for potential fans who aren't represented by the NRL, and it'd artificially create a system where players are encouraged to take less money then they are worth for a chance to make it into the NRL.

    With duel registration the NRL clubs still have reserves and the players market isn't completely slanted against non NRL affiliated clubs in the lower tiers.
     
  11. siv

    siv Bench

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    Lets tackle each item

    1 - clubs get $10 mil grants higher than than ever before in the game. That $3 mil more than last year 40% more when flying u20s. Auckland, Melbourne, Cowboys, Gold Coast all have been paying to flying lower grade teams for years even back when grants were only of $4 mil.

    2 - In Qld its only 3 players per team no impact. In NSW you reshape NSW Cup in the same manner Qld did in the 1990s. Merge RM Cup and NSW Division Championship. Plus you have 250 U20s graduating every year. In 2 years any initial gaps are addressed

    3 - season ticket holders have payed for 2 or 3 games on game day for 110 years. Why should they be locked out of seeing their lower grades ? Or be forced to pay more ? We follow our team and yes in ALL grades teams

    4 - State comps pay for players and facilities at their part-time funding levels. Clubs should not be disavantaged by competing against professional players

    5 - These part time clubs should not be asked to pay for international travel eg Fiji PNG Christchurch. Just because Pentith can doesnt mean Newtown can

    6 - player development - developing players in fulltime professional facilities and team structures eg Panthers CEO is always going to be WAY better than developing in a part-time manner say at Windsor on two for nights a week after work

    7 - All NRL clubs contract 30+6 players.

    8 - In NSW NRL club are the local district clubs so they have run U20 RG and FG for 108 years and U18s/U16s for 50 years

    9 - Today NSW Cup teams do not cover all of NSW district or regional boundaries. So Woy Woy or Cabramatta have no pathway or district representations at NSW Cup levels like they have in Qld
     
  12. latingringo101

    latingringo101 Juniors

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    I see merit there being a WA team in the NSW Cup, however could they afford to travel to places like NZ and possibly Fiji (if they get admitted to NSW Cup).

    Qld cup could also work but PNG would be crazy if they had to travel from Perth.

    If they could do what the Wolfpack do and break even without teams breaking their bank accounts getting to and from Perth then I could see a NSW/QLD cup team in WA.
     
  13. Perth Red

    Perth Red Referee

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    Logistically nsw would be easier for a Perth team. But yes a $500k plus travel bill is prohibitive unless the nrl support it, we don't have pokies or a nrl club to chip in.
     
  14. siv

    siv Bench

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    I find it interesting in how the VRL can afford to fly a U20s and U18s team to Queensland to play in a weekly competition

    And Queensland Cup teams can do the same in reverse

    But Melbourne and Queensland based NRL teams cant afford to fly to NSW
     

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