Ridiculing Religion 2 - The Ridiculining

Discussion in 'Four Corners' started by gUt, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    I dunno mate I am just a cold materialist with no understanding for the subtle truths and mysterious nuances contained in the holy texts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  2. Collateral

    Collateral Moderator Staff Member

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    So why don't you try and understand something before you attack it?
     
  3. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    Because god made me this way.
     
  4. Collateral

    Collateral Moderator Staff Member

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    So no intelligent response to the question?
     
  5. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    Your question didn't deserve one, especially as it was in relation to an obviously ironic post.

    I'm willing to let you have your little gotcha though if that's what you need. I believe I've demonstrated sufficient knowledge on the topic in general and in specifics over the years in this forum not to have to answer to you.
     
  6. Collateral

    Collateral Moderator Staff Member

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    I was genuinely asking why you would argue against something you don't understand. What is the point if you have no understanding of the oppositions content, context or standpoint?
     
  7. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    I don't know why someone would do that unless it's out of fear or just to score points on an internet forum.
     
  8. Mr Spock!

    Mr Spock! Coach

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    Meh....pick and choose......

    There was no penalty for married men (nor single men) screwing underage girls. The whole concept of underage is a western one. Although if she was proven not to b e a virgin on her wedding night after being vaginally examined she was to be stoned.

    Deuteronomy 22

    13“If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, 14and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, ‘I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,’ 15then the girl’s father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16“The girl’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; 17and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, “I did not find your daughter a virgin.” But this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. 18“So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, 19and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl’s father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

    20“But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, 21then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father’s house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.


    Although rapists were to marry their victims.....

    Deuteronomy 22

    28“If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.


    As for underage boys......once again ...nothing...though there is this.....

    Leviticus 20

    13‘If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.


    Hence why in history paedophiles AND their victims were put to death.

    But this only applies to the general population where the Church believes it to be the holders of morality declaring the general population and gay people immoral.

    It doesn't apply to their clergy.
     
  9. _Johnsy

    _Johnsy Referee

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    Convenient
     
  10. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    It was well understood for centuries that a female must reach puberty before she could be bedded. (Unless you are some horny spokesman for Allah).

    No, the garments were examined, not her vagina.

    So that she would be provided for since a non-virgins were seen as suitable marriage partners. What's more the man cannot divorce her ensuring that she will not simply be married and then discarded. The law actually protects women since a man would think twice before fulfilling his sexual desires knowing that it will have consequences for the rest of his life. But most of all Spock you fail to mention that Deuteronomy is, as the name implies, a second reading of the law. This law, as it is written in Exodus 22:16-17, allows the woman's family to refuse the marriage if they don't want their daughter marrying a douche.

    I think it's pretty obvious that an act where one person can't consent is rape and as such only the rapist would be punished. I'd be interested in your sources for this claim about history too.
     
  11. Mr Spock!

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    The ancient understanding of underage and puberty stands.

    There simply was no 'under age'. In fact children were betrothed by their parents to be wed in many cultures.

    The garments were examined to see if the hymen had been broken. You do know there are plenty of ways a girls hymen can be ruptured apart from sex.
    And if that law still applied than underage victims of child abuse would be stoned.

    And yes we get your justification for why a rapist should marry their victim. It's frankly insulting and disgusting.

    Deuteronomy forms the Torah - the Law with the first four books of the Old Testament. There is no first or second law. That''s simply dishonest.

    As for pedophiles and their victims being executed....

    From the puritan colonies

    "choked to death, and then burnt to ashes"
    The New Netherland Colony court sentenced "Jan Creoli, a negro," for a second "sodomy" offense. The record stated: "this crime being condemned of God...as an abomination, the prisoner is sentenced to be conveyed to the place of public execution, and there choked to death, and then burnt to ashes...." The rationale was cited as Genesis c. 19; Leviticus c. 18: 22, 29. The margin of the court record states: "he was executed at New Haven."(1)

    And on the some date the Calendar lists:

    Sentence. Manuel Congo, a lad ten years old, on whom the above abominable crime was committed, to be carried to the place where Creoli is to be executed, tied to a stake, and twigs piled around him, for justice sake, and to be flogged; sentence executed. . . .(2)

    There are other cases of homosexual rape where the victim was punished eg J. Q. van der Linde was executed in 1660 and his victim was "privately whipped, and sent to some other place ....".

    http://outhistory.org/exhibits/show/the-age-of-sodomitical-sin/1640s/sodomy-case-creoli-executed-ne
     
  12. Snoop

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    But they weren't married until they had reached puberty.

    Except it's rape and rape victims don't get stoned.

    I'm just saying that in that culture it ensured that a woman who had a sexual encounter with a man prior to marriage would be cared for. I'm not entirely sure why you are so against women???

    A second reading of the law, not two laws. A reiteration of the law. Deuteronomy: deuteros "second" + nomos "law".

    Manuel Congo was not executed, he was whipped. I still don't agree with that but let's at least be honest.

    So in summary, no evidence yet that victims were executed.
     
  13. Mr Spock!

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    Yes we agree there was no ancient concept of 'underage'...

    As for rape, there is no provision in the adultery laws for rape.

    You're making your own bs up now. You've already made it clear that it was best for the woman to marry her rapist. This actually confirms your position. If the woman isn't a virgin on her wedding night she's to be stoned. it doesn't say anything about HOW she lost her virginity. Btw what was the test for men to prove they were virgins?

    This is the culture which you claim were given instructions and ordinances by God. You can't hide behind culture here. I mean you still claim it was ok for God to command the execution of gays. Now you're understanding of morality is relativist....something you hate.

    Deuteronomy exists with the other four books as the Law. Now if god changed his mind about Leviticus, it was news to the Jews.

    You are aware that Jews don't call it Deuteronomy...

    The Book of Deuteronomy (from Ancient Greek: Δευτερονόμιον, Deuteronómion, "second law"; Hebrew: דְּבָרִים‎, Devārīm, "[spoken] words") is the fifth book of the Torah (a section of the Hebrew Bible) and the Christian Old Testament. The Hebrew title is taken from the opening phrase Eleh ha-devarim, "These are the words...". The English title "Deuteronomy" comes from the Greek deuteronomion, meaning "second law", taken from the Septuagint's (Greek) phrase to deuteronomion touto, "this second law", in Deuteronomy 17:18. This Greek phrase is itself a mistranslation of the Hebrew mishneh haTorah hazoth, "a copy of this law".[1]

    Your agreeing or disagreeing with the facts is irrelevant. Why do you think the twigs were piled around him for justice sake?
     
  14. Snoop

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    But there was an ancient concept of the age at which one could engage in intercourse.

    Not sure how you read Deuteronomy 22 then. Really don't know how.

    Oh heaven forbid that God decree a law that in the culture it was given too both makes a man really think twice before taking a woman's virginity and that provides for the woman if he does and if she so desires.

    Exactly. So Exodus 22:16-17 is still part of the law.

    Yep. Learnt that from James White. Great series of teachings he gave on the Torah. You should listen to it some time.

    A "copy of the law" huh? Doesn't this confirm my statement that this was a reiteration of the law!?

    The facts are that he was tied to a post with sticks piled around it and flogged. He was not executed.
     
  15. Mr Spock!

    Mr Spock! Coach

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    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  16. sportive cupid

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    Women being protected by their rapists marrying them so they can be honourable and to deter rape?
    That sounds like the sort of equitible society that id like to belong to .

    Not

    Also ..no mention of women's choices or voice in this ..or women choosing to abstain from sex with her husband.

    Yes protecting women by denying them choice.Thats wonderful.
     
  17. Mr Spock!

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    Women didn't have a say in the Old Testament.

    They were chattel. That's why adultery was so severe. It was pollution of a man's property.
     
  18. Mr Spock!

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    Can you tell us what the Old Testament punishment was for underage (prepuberty) sex?

    Numbers 31 gives us a clue.....

    "17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.18 But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves."

    The consequences in the Torah were None. Zilch...Nada. Unless it was boy getting rogered in which case they were to both be killed. The underage girl if raped was to marry the rapist.

    There were no additional exceptional circumstances in Ancient Judaism until the writing of the Talmud and the Mishnah. Actually that's why they were written. To provide further interpretation to the Law because it was seen as too draconian.

    As for Deuteronomy 22, Adultery was a married woman screwing a man. The penalty was death. In the case of Deut 22, it was an unbetrothed virgin being raped. Not adultery. A fine and possession of the victim.

    Who actually pays for the girl losing her virginity? That's if she hadn't ruptured her hymen some other way. Or if she was raped. The girl does. Can you give us a test to prove if a male is a virgin? No of course you can't. In fact it didn't matter. Your defence of a barbaric patriarchal custom is quite bizarre.

    I never said anything about Exodus not being part of the law. That was your weird argument which you repeated. The whole Torah is the Law.

    He was just piled around with sticks hey. That's as poor as the rest of your explanations.
     
  19. Snoop

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    The custom of the day was to only marry a girl after she had reached puberty. There's nothing that suggests that this practice was put aside in the case of the Midianite girls. Nor is there any reason to suggest that a rape victim would receive any punishment. In fact it is quite the opposite.

    And then flogged as per the documentation. Nice to know it's not only my posts that you read incorrectly though. Would hate to think you single me out.
     
  20. Mr Spock!

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    So there was no punishment for underage sex.....that's what I've been saying. Glad you agree with me. It's quite clear the Midianite girls who were spared were to be virgins - now why would that be?

    There are absolutely NO conditions attached to the Law. The girl wasn't a virgin (ie she failed the virgin test). She was stoned. Even you're embarrassed by the callousness of it.

    Now tell me again Snoop, the test to prove a man was a virgin on his wedding was...........what?

    Yes, we get that the puritans just piled sticks around him for some macabre reason which only you know and then flogged him because he was a child who had gay sex.

    This whole discussion is really horrendous and disgusting. A bit like debating ISIS ideology.
     

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