Ridiculing Religion 2 - The Ridiculining

Discussion in 'Four Corners' started by gUt, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. myrrh ken

    myrrh ken Bench

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    I thought propogating the species, which would include trying to better conditions for future generations and humanity in general, would be a good purpose.

    Whats the point of life for a christian? Worship god, obey gods laws then just wait for death so you can ascend to heaven? Sounds a bit nihilistic to me.

    The wiki has more references and is more objective.

    Slavery = welfare. Those POWs are so lucky.

    If you are regulating it you are condoning it. Condone = approve or sanction, especially with reluctance.

    Yes morals are defined by society.

    Its hard to follow your hypothetical given i cannot make an objective judgment. I would not find rape and murder okay under any circumstances because of the morals instilled in me.

    Most modern societies condemn rape theft and murder, the 3 biggies. Probably because they are the antithesis of living in a communal society.

    But beyond that morals differ and can change over time. Once upon a time slavery was fine. Homosexuality was not.

    Its funny you keep bringing up rape when those bible passages clearly suggest taking non consenting females as wives was fine back then.
     
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  2. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    You can think that but there's no reason to believe that it is an objective purpose of the universe. Also, propagating the species does not necessarily entail improving conditions for all of humanity. Some people have thought that ignoring who they deem as weak and concentrating on only allowing the strong to reproduce would benefit future generations. On atheistic/evolutionary terms it's hard to argue against.

    I would say the purpose of the Christian is to enjoy God as our supreme treasure. Nothing nihilistic about that at all. In fact it is the exact opposite.

    Wiki is more objective on a religious topic?? Well I've heard everything now.

    No one is lucky when it comes to war. But would you have women and children left alone to starve to death?

    The example I gave of divorce was of regulating something that God disapproved of. If you equate that with condoning then fine, the word condone fits.

    So as a long as a society thinks rape is OK then who are you to so it's not?

    You can make an objective judgement if you believe in objective moral values and duties. If you think rape is never OK under any circumstance or at any time then you think it is objectively wrong and can therefore objectively judge on that basis. Of course someone could argue that it is not objectively wrong or ask you to show how it is objectively wrong in which case you up a certain creek without a paddle.

    Well then surely rape, murder and theft are possibly up for grabs too.

    Two things. First of all, and I repeat, God regulates that which he disapproves of. I believe this to be the case with POWs, divorce, etc. Secondly, from what I can tell, under your moral system, if a society agrees something is fine then it's fine for them and you can't judge them. So why are banging on about what other societies have done/not done.
     
  3. Mr Spock!

    Mr Spock! Coach

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    " First of all, and I repeat, God regulates that which he disapproves of."

    Also called making up shit as you go along.

    Honestly, none of your arguments are the least bit persuasive.

    God regulated homosexuality by killing them.

    And how good it was to be raped and married to your rapist.

    As for pows, well those were the ones they kept alive.

    Because those non-virgins and boys ordered to be executed were the lucky ones.....except for those given to become slaves.....they were even luckier.

    Atheists are right.

    It takes religion for people to do and justify shitty things.
     
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  4. Surely

    Surely Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah yeah God created some massive universe but hes worried about divorce on a planet that wouldn't even be a grain of sand in the grand scheme of the universe.

    So worried he regulates divorce

    Seriously dude take a step back, it's ridiculous
     
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  5. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    But what if we are an important part of the grand scheme of the universe. I mean in your world view there isn't even a grand scheme of the universe. In the Christian worldview what happens here is part of the grand scheme of the universe.

    And yes he is against divorce for a number of reasons. First of all, in many cases divorce does not actually fix any inherent problems and it creates more. It usually screws up the kids and the issues that the individuals in the marriage can't deal with properly that lead to divorce are not fixed and carry over into the next relationship. Now on the other hand divorce is at times necessary because men beat their wives, people cheat on each other, etc etc. So because we screw marriage up regulating divorce becomes necessary. This is the clear teaching of the Bible.
     
  6. Surely

    Surely Moderator Staff Member

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    Righto

    You just stick to that

    God worries about divorce lol
     
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  7. AJB1102

    AJB1102 Juniors

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    What if eating enough Play-doh is the secret to breathing under water?

    Earth isn't even a grain of sand in the grand scope of things in our galaxy, just to round it down. Within an infinite, ever expanding universe our galaxy is even less significant. In the infinity of space the existence of mankind is nothing - losing all of us would be as significant to the universe as me stepping accidentally on an ant is to you.

    Hundreds of years ago people said "what if the Earth circled the Sun? I'll gather some evidence. Oh no, now the church want to burn me alive." Be careful with your 'what ifs' mate.
     
  8. Mr Spock!

    Mr Spock! Coach

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    According to the bible only a man can divorce his wife. The wife had no say at all as she was the man's property. It wasnt later in judaism that women could ask their husbands to divorce them.

    So if a woman is married to someone who rapes and tries to kill her, too bad.

    Its for the woman's good.
     
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  9. Surely

    Surely Moderator Staff Member

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    Another of God’s worries , bum sex, he’s really concerned if you’re out by an inch with your aim, but a rapin sometimes that’s warranted
     
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  10. Bandwagon

    Bandwagon Moderator Staff Member

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    But the bible says...........................

    Is there a less convincing argument than a circle jerk that's been going on for a coupla thousand years or so?
     
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  11. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    That is all true if there is no God. Surely's response assumed God, hypothetically, so my response to him assumed God as well. That God came to earth in the form of Jesus is reason enough to say that what happens here is significant to God.

    Don't be hyperbolic with history mate.
     
  12. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    Yes, "I say ...."
     
  13. Mr Spock!

    Mr Spock! Coach

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    It's simple really.

    The Bible was written by Jewish and Christian communities and reflected their attitudes and beliefs.

    It wasn't written or inspired by god.

    It's ridiculous arguing that Bronze Age and Iron Age beliefs are relevant today and quite frankly it's dishonest to try and legitimise them eg you can bet Snoop doesn't think his wife is unclean when she's on her period.

    Do people go around saying yeah but the Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead says.....""??
     
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  14. Mr Spock!

    Mr Spock! Coach

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    Yet didn't have a problem with girl on girl.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  15. Mr Spock!

    Mr Spock! Coach

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    I never wrote any of that.

    But seeing how you've attributed it to me: Is it immoral to execute gay people?

    And who decided that?

    Btw: You've already argued that rapists were doing raped women a favour by marrying them as they were damaged goods. So make your mind up.

    Seems your objective morality isn't so objective.
     
  16. Mr Spock!

    Mr Spock! Coach

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    "Slaves in the OT chose to be slaves as a way to stay alive during bad times."

    You keep hiding behind that but that was not the case with foreign slaves who were bought and sold and who remained slaves even after the death of their master. As did their children.

    Nice try at trying to make slavery a wonderful thing.

    I mean what was Sparticus thinking?

    Actually my desire it's out of honesty and truth.

    While we're on it, Jewish slave owners had to circumcise their slaves. Whether they wanted to or not.

    Look who's being dishonest.....

    Judges 20

    18Now the sons of Israel arose, went up to Bethel, and inquired of God and said, “Who shall go up first for us to battle against the sons of Benjamin?” Then the LORD said, “Judah shall go up first.”

    19So the sons of Israel arose in the morning and camped against Gibeah. 20The men of Israel went out to battle against Benjamin, and the men of Israel arrayed for battle against them at Gibeah. 21Then the sons of Benjamin came out of Gibeah and felled to the ground on that day 22,000 men of Israel. 22But the people, the men of Israel, encouraged themselves and arrayed for battle again in the place where they had arrayed themselves the first day. 23The sons of Israel went up and wept before the LORD until evening, and inquired of the LORD, saying, “Shall we again draw near for battle against the sons of my brother Benjamin?” And the LORD said, “Go up against him.”

    24Then the sons of Israel came against the sons of Benjamin the second day. 25Benjamin went out against them from Gibeah the second day and felled to the ground again 18,000 men of the sons of Israel; all these drew the sword. 26Then all the sons of Israel and all the people went up and came to Bethel and wept; thus they remained there before the LORD and fasted that day until evening. And they offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. 27The sons of Israel inquired of the LORD (for the ark of the covenant of God was there in those days, 28and Phinehas the son of Eleazar, Aaron’s son, stood before it to minister in those days), saying, “Shall I yet again go out to battle against the sons of my brother Benjamin, or shall I cease?” And the LORD said, “Go up, for tomorrow I will deliver them into your hand.”

    29So Israel set men in ambush around Gibeah. 30The sons of Israel went up against the sons of Benjamin on the third day and arrayed themselves against Gibeah as at other times. 31The sons of Benjamin went out against the people and were drawn away from the city, and they began to strike and kill some of the people as at other times, on the highways, one of which goes up to Bethel and the other to Gibeah, and in the field, about thirty men of Israel. 32The sons of Benjamin said, “They are struck down before us, as at the first.” But the sons of Israel said, “Let us flee that we may draw them away from the city to the highways.” 33Then all the men of Israel arose from their place and arrayed themselves at Baal-tamar; and the men of Israel in ambush broke out of their place, even out of Maareh-geba. 34When ten thousand choice men from all Israel came against Gibeah, the battle became fierce; but Benjamin did not know that disaster was close to them. 35And the LORD struck Benjamin before Israel, so that the sons of Israel destroyed 25,100 men of Benjamin that day, all who draw the sword.

    36So the sons of Benjamin saw that they were defeated. When the men of Israel gave ground to Benjamin because they relied on the men in ambush whom they had set against Gibeah, 37the men in ambush hurried and rushed against Gibeah; the men in ambush also deployed and struck all the city with the edge of the sword. 38Now the appointed sign between the men of Israel and the men in ambush was that they would make a great cloud of smoke rise from the city. 39Then the men of Israel turned in the battle, and Benjamin began to strike and kill about thirty men of Israel, for they said, “Surely they are defeated before us, as in the first battle.” 40But when the cloud began to rise from the city in a column of smoke, Benjamin looked behind them; and behold, the whole city was going up in smoke to heaven. 41Then the men of Israel turned, and the men of Benjamin were terrified; for they saw that disaster was close to them. 42Therefore, they turned their backs before the men of Israel toward the direction of the wilderness, but the battle overtook them while those who came out of the cities destroyed them in the midst of them. 43They surrounded Benjamin, pursued them without rest and trod them down opposite Gibeah toward the east. 44Thus 18,000 men of Benjamin fell; all these were valiant warriors.45The rest turned and fled toward the wilderness to the rock of Rimmon, but they caught 5,000 of them on the highways and overtook them at Gidom and killed 2,000 of them. 46So all of Benjamin who fell that day were 25,000 men who draw the sword; all these were valiant warriors. 47But 600 men turned and fled toward the wilderness to the rock of Rimmon, and they remained at the rock of Rimmon four months. 48The men of Israel then turned back against the sons of Benjamin and struck them with the edge of the sword, both the entire city with the cattle and all that they found; they also set on fire all the cities which they found.

    I know you won't engage me on the whole "God said to kill gay people" issue because it's a complete embarrassment for you.
     
  17. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    I'm not hiding behind anything. Foreigner who sold themselves into slavery would see out their agreed upon time even if the owner died. That was not the case for Israelites. They could buy themselves out of slavery just like Israelite slaves could.

    I'm not trying to make it out to be a wonderful thing. It was a last resort. Last resorts are rarely if ever wonderful things. The regulations in the Bible did make being a slave in Israel far better than anywhere else though. Would you rather they just starve to death?

    You are, trying to pass of what happened in Judges 20 as the same as Judges 21 when Judges 21 explicitly states that it was the Israelite's decision to go up against Jabesh Gilead, not God's. God was not consulted at all concerning Jabesh Gilead.

    I've stated my reason
     
  18. Mr Spock!

    Mr Spock! Coach

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    "Foreigner who sold themselves into slavery would see out their agreed upon time even if the owner died. "

    That is complete and utter false.

    Leviticus 25

    ". 44‘As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 45‘Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46‘You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another."

    Men, women and children were taken in slavery during war.

    The 'last resort' defence is a fairly poor justification especially when God had no problem creating miracles which saved others. Is owning people immoral or not? Apparently ok by your standards, which are the same as the Bronze/Iron Age.

    That's what it boils down to.

    "The regulations in the Bible did make being a slave in Israel far better than anywhere else though."

    I think you'll find Jewish slavery was very similar to other ancient cultures which owned slaves eg Egyptians, Babylonians.

    This article shows that Babylon had pretty similar laws.

    Slavery in Babylonia
    https://ililarbel.weebly.com/the-golden-rule-the-life-of-hillel-the-elder/slavery-in-babylonia


    I mean this practice of piercing a slave's ear was common throughout the Ancient Middle East....

    Exodus 21

    "5“But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,’ 6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently."

    Yeah just like they just cut gay people's and kids' throats....Hey it was quick and painless.

    Dude, the whole war in Judges 20 was about Jabesh-gilead. At least read the book.

    Judges 20

    12Then the tribes of Israel sent men through the entire tribe of Benjamin, saying, “What is this wickedness that has taken place among you?13“Now then, deliver up the men, the worthless fellows in Gibeah, that we may put them to death and remove this wickedness from Israel.” But the sons of Benjamin would not listen to the voice of their brothers, the sons of Israel. 14The sons of Benjamin gathered from the cities to Gibeah, to go out to battle against the sons of Israel. 15From the cities on that day the sons of Benjamin were numbered, 26,000 men who draw the sword, besides the inhabitants of Gibeah who were numbered, 700 choice men. 16Out of all these people 700 choice men were left-handed; each one could sling a stone at a hair and not miss.

    aaannnddd that was because of that wonderful account in Judges 19 where the Levite cuts up his concubine after he gave her to be raped to leave his guests alone. (a story paralleling Sodom and Gomorah)

    Once again your dishonesty is astounding.

    "I've stated my reason"

    Yes, your reason for why God wanted to kill gay people....it wasn't terribly convincing either.
     
  19. Bandwagon

    Bandwagon Moderator Staff Member

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    It's almost as if the words of god are not the words of god at all, but rather the words of man written within the prism of the moralities of their time, and it must be that in order to find some consistency to the word of an eternal god, that man must forever re-interpret these words within the prism of the morality of the current day.
     
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  20. AJB1102

    AJB1102 Juniors

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    Wasn't Galileo forced to recant his belief that Earth revolved around the Sun or be burned alive?
     

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