Discussion in 'St George Illawarra Dragons' started by Frank Facer, Jun 29, 2018.
ALSGI, didn't you hear the news mate?
The sky is falling in!!!
I don't think they will worry too much if Cleary hooks up with his dad.
Question: would he be in our starting side?
Impact off the bench I think.
Oh my dear sweet ouryears, you seem a little worked up?
Like I said before we even played the panthers- they have the best depth in the Comp. What I’ve been doing, and will continue to do, is mock you for not knowing what you are talking about.
Let’s try again - name the 8 players who would be in their first grade team but aren’t?
I’ll start you off
Who else? Who would they replace? Let’s make up, hug it out and have a conversation?
Completely agree, it was definitely the turning point in the game. And while I think the HIA process is really important, graham didn’t display the symptoms to be taken off. And Hoffman did, but played on.
No now Damo, don't tease him. Ouryears is very passionate and I admire him for that but he isn't great with details and simple mathematics.
You see, he was under the impression that Smith would be unavailable for Melbourne this week due to Origin duties. He didn't pick up on the whole retirement from Origin thing.
Ohh and he keeps banging on about dragons losing 3 of the last 5 games.
I know its only minor but its actually 2 of the last 5 games we have lost. Come to think of it, its not a minor error, it's considerable.
As I said, he's good with the ranting not so good with actual fact.
Lots of players not off contract have gone to other clubs within a season so that is a bit of a lame excuse although the post was not aimed at Luai in particular.
The point I am making is that we go for a 28 / 29 year old who has never played NRL as our depth signing and others (not just Penrith) are able to bring in young talent that can easily slip into top grade and perform at a great rate.
Recruitment should never have been contemplating Nicholls they should have had better & younger options available and exercised them.
Every other club can seem to get youth into their side either by design or adversity and benefit from it whereas we seem to have little or no ability and we took the "safe" option of older players.
Nicholls 29, Latimore 32, Graham 33, Hunt 28 are the facts when we look at major signings with Latimore and Nicholls the depth.
We signed Kerr a few years back (lots applauded that one) and either he is complete shit or we don't know how to progress him and to me their is an alarming trend in respect of our purchases and IMO that falls into the realm of giving the coach seniors as he can't do the job with juniors but clearly other systems can and do.
I knew the ranting would start again after our next loss.
Sure enough, right on cue there is ranting on multiple threads. So predictable.
But nah, he’s not a troll.
Reality is we were very much in the game for 65 minutes.
Injuries plus HIA plus fatigue took its toll.
Lawrie, Leilua, Sele and Robson all got game time and will be better players for the experience.
Getting beaten is often the best tonic for the team.
They will come back angry and hungrier next game.
We lost by 22 points , something that nobody wanted - even yhe players who DID try their guts out . Were beaten by a better team which was also coached better on the night.
Lets move on , as the Dragons will play far better football with the SOO players in the squad . We will improve as a team and take plenty of positives from the Melbourne game .
You always learn more from a loss than you do from a win
We were going with them up till the 67th minute.
Then Graham went off with a HIA which meant none of our regular starting forwards were on the park. That and losing Host were killers, in an already decimated forward pack which is our strength.
We were scoring tries at will against the defending premiere at their home ground. As you said, the main positive was that Lawrie, Leilua and Sele got some FG minutes which will help us later in the season.
Agree gizbo71 , whats the old saying - ' from the acorn shall grow the mighty oak ' (?)
I believe that the experience of playing a side such as the Storm , although severly depleted as was our own , those younger players will grow as a result .
In that case, l wish we were totally inexperienced..... almost virginal, right up to and thereafter the GF.
We have won 2 from the last 5.
The two we won we were lucky to win.
Mcstupid puts a tired, old and slow winger into second row resulting in big powerful forwards tearing us apart.
Mcidiot puts two backs onto the bench.
And you are happy with all this.
You are a pal of McNugget, and as irrational and stupid as he is.
Quit justifying stupidity, the slide has well and truly begun.
At what stage of all the losses to come will you disappear?
We have won 3 of the last 5.
We have lost 4 games this year.
I know the facts aren't important to you but at least try to keep up.
You should just exclude the numbers from your rants, be more general.
Instead of saying Penrith beat us with 8 players missing just say many players.
And instead of saying that we have won 2 from last 5 just say we have been inconsistent of late.
Get it? It'll really help your arguments.
Because when you quote incorrect statistics we all just think that you are a doughnut.
It's really not a lame excuse at all because legally we cannot approach a player who is under contract. It is that player's choice to put themselves out there and go fishing for a contract upgrade. So, sure, it would have been nice to sign up a quality junior as our back up half, but the REALITY is...
1. There was nobody off contract to sign in the first place except Nichols.
2. No young halves were interested in seeking a release from their respective clubs at the time of when we were of the market for a back up for Ben Hunt. None. I checked.
3. Drew Hutchinson was never going to make it. Those knee injuries were awful, and he was never good enough despite his rep pedigree. We had to let him go.
So the fact is, it's a seriously misinformed opinion to say, "well, players are floating around all the time, contracts mean nothing".. Because they do, and Nichols was literally the only player available. We held onto Drew with the hope he would kick on... It didn't happen... So we looked elsewhere. Bit like what happened with Kyle Stanley.
It’s also worth noting that plenty of very good judges, who watch reserve grade, rated Nicholls as the best back up half around, who was very unlucky not to play firsts. He was apparently at the bunnies behind Reynolds the year they won the premiership, and behind Hunt at the broncos when they made the grand final.
I'll have a bit of a look later in the day at player movements but I find it hard to believe that Nicholls was the only option FMD keeping Drew was a better option IMO.
As I pointed out in my previous post we have for a long time had a propensity to sign senior journeymen rather than high quality external youth or properly develop our own.
In recent years we have seen the rise of Cottrick, Hass, Cleary, Mitchell, Ponga, Pangai Jnr, Crichton, Campbell Graham and so the list goes on please tell me where are our equivalents?
Other clubs either buy these guns or develop them internally get them to 1st grade and keep them there please tell me where are ours?
No doubt people will say Dufty & Aitken and whilst I acknowledge they are in the system they have great deficiencies and in fact those deficiencies do not seem to be improving any time soon which rings alarm bells to me re our system.
We purchased Hunt (good buy but is 28), Latimore, Graham, Nicholls all aged players and some consumate journeymen.
We did sign Periera who was a bit younger at 24 with no 1st grade experience and despite all our woes in the back line is still in reggies as was the 29 year old Nicholls until last week.
If people want to really believe there were no other options I think they have their heads stuck in the sands as other clubs seem to be able to get good quality mid season signings or young players who are keen to progress their careers at another venue and that does not seem to ring true at our club.
Teams have a history of purchasing older players to find that balance. For example, for the 2010 squad we bought Smith @ 29 (30 during the premiership year), Fein @ 29 (30 in the premiership year) and Priddis @ 32 (33 during the premiership year). There is value in doing that - especially when it is recognised that we have players coming through that are anticipated to fill those holes in the future. And before you say "..but Bennett", it's something that all clubs do for a variety of situations.
As I've said in previous posts, if you start filling all the spots with young players you end up with a Newcastle scenario where they languish at the bottom of the table and are constantly in a state of rebuild. Additionally, those players you mentioned - at least some of them have deficiencies as well - Mitchell's defense and ability to read plays is questionable, Hess also had defensive issues that he needs to improve. Yes our players have deficiencies but they are starring in a team that had been leading the comp since the beginning of the year. They are future stars that will improve with time - if you haven't seen the gradual improvement in Dufty's defense, you haven't been watching the games close enough.
The bringing through of players depends on a lot of factors - not just "getting them game time in first grade". For example, I have been lead to believe that Lomax has been struggling mentally with the pressure and they have been working with him to over come that. No point playing him in first grade if his mind isn't in the game. But we don't see that in the games or in the training. We see a young player with potential and then scream for him to be brought through immediately because we've seen a couple of games where he's played well. And then when he isn't we bag the f%%k out of the club and the coaching staff for not preparing them early enough. My point is, we don't have enough information to definitively say they have made the wrong decision.
Additionally different players develop better in different environments. Vaughn and Sims are great examples of players that have thrived in our culture and excelled on the field compared to their previous clubs. Kerr on the other hand may not have bought in to the club culture as well as had been expected and so is not developing as well as we would have liked - it may mean we cut him lose at the end of the contract and look elsewhere.
We may also have bought players to buy time knowing there are contracts expiring at certain times. As TRV has mentioned, you can't approach a player who is legally under contract. However if you know a players contract is due to end in a year or 2, you need to fill that gap with someone until you get a chance to officially approach them. I suspect that is what we have done in a number of roles. Nicholls may be one of those roles. we also don't know what their contract offers are and what sort of money they are being offered in comparison. Take LAM for example - everything points to him going to NZ next year. From what I understand the offers were similar but he wants to be closer to his family - so more than likely it would be difficult to sway his mind. Not something we would have been able to foresee but the club sounds as though they have done everything to keep him here.
There are so many factors to take into consideration that the statement "we buy old guys and aren't developing the young guys" is too simplistic to make a valid argument out of. It will be interesting to see what you find during your player movements research so we can see what other options there were as opposed to Nicholls.
PS - apologies for the wall of text - again.
Separate names with a comma.