Rumoured and Confirmed signings - Part 4

[mxlegend99]

I think most of us have moved on from Matt Moylan and Bryce Cartwright.

They are no longer part of our club and most fans are accepting of the the fact.

There may well be players that don't like or respect coach Anthony Griffin but the fact is the 'majority' of the playing group had much more dislike and less respect for both Moylan and Cartwright so get over it. They are both gone and we will be the better for it long term.

Youve misunderstood the meaning of the post.

The players that have left are proof that Hook is safe. That's my point. If the club was ever considering getting rid of him. It would have been done already to keep these guys around.

Theres about a 1% chance Hook gets sacked this year. He's as safe as any coach.

 

[franklin2323]

Hard to find any solid info on this off field cap, but my guess it would be a phase in period.

Not that a think Hook is getting sacked anytime soon.

I just read on Fox Sports that Des won't count as he was sacked before it came in. Can't find actual figures though

 

[Abacus]

I have never heard Gus say that we should be all juniors. I have heard him say that he is basing the club's model on the Broncos where we have about 80% local juniors. He also made the point that juniors also means signing junior players from QLD and country areas if the Penrith region doesn't have what you need. He has done this repeatedly.

I 100% support this policy and lament the fact the club hasn't done this for the last 40 years. It is obvious you can't compete with one city clubs like Melbourne and Brisbane and the TPA's they offer, you can't compete with clubs with inner city lifestyle and beaches on offer. So here we are, using the biggest resource we have, our juniors.

If that is the strategy then it becomes about the execution. It is one thing having juniors, its another thing developing them properly so they turn into first graders. We have failed to do this well in the past.

The point should be made that we are early in the proper completion of this strategy because it takes a while to get the development paths working properly, and to fill the gaps in the roster at the junior level, of which there were many. A junior then takes 4 to 5 years to develop so you are in the wilderness until the production line is consistently producing talent and your first batch are now experienced first graders. In your first run, you won't have 80 %, that will take time. Once you reach the tipping point you can manage the age of the team much more effectively. I think we are close to that now. We are now at that point where we are seeing several years of juniors of the right quality, in the right positions that will fill the 80% of positions that our strategy aspires to. The first big group of juniors are now just past or close to the 50 game point (the number which NRL coaches believe a player is a proper first grader), but only just.

I take your point that the team was too young and it is a reason why I repeatedly argue that we have lived up to our potential because people have oversold how good we are (please let's not argue this point again, lets all agree to disagree). Gus could have signed a few more experienced players but he has gone cold turkey to try and boost the number of juniors we have . Brennan has to take a huge wrap for that because he really helped start it off at u20 level. The benefit of this will be realised in the next few years, because we will have 80% local juniors (cheaper and more loyal than outsiders. I know the irony of this statement with the Moylan issue, but lets agree that1 or 2 cases doesn't make that statement invalid) and they will be experienced with more coming through to keep the supply topped up.

It is a balancing act and everybody will have a different opinion on what is the right balance. But the amazing thing is, we have made the semi finals two years running with a very young roster. Those juniors have got finals experience on their way to 50 games. Lets see what happens next.

Great post

 

[Abacus]

I honestly can’t say who was available 2-3 years ago, it was a general point.

I do know we rushed to sign him though after Idris left. Find it hard to believe there were no other options out there.

Point being we signed the best option available - international, from a winning club, young enough to be a Panther for years.
Signing was made in December so most options would already be contracted.
While Hiku didn't work out, at the time it looked like a good signing.

 

[Abacus]

This is bullshit.

If it were true we would have kept Carty and Moylan.. telling them Hook is gone and to wait and see how they feel after he left.

I dont doubt theres players that hate the coach. But our clubs actions tell us he is safe. Players will be gone before him.

Did I miss the part where Bryce left because of Griffin?

 

[Abacus]

Youve misunderstood the meaning of the post.

The players that have left are proof that Hook is safe. That's my point. If the club was ever considering getting rid of him. It would have been done already to keep these guys around.

Theres about a 1% chance Hook gets sacked this year. He's as safe as any coach.

Agree Griffin is probably safe.

Although your suggestion that the coach should be moved to retain players - particularly Moylan who reportedly didn't appreciate discipline or copping a spray - is a dangerous approach any club. If a coach doesn't have the ability to instil discipline, well you may as well get Matt Elliott back.

 

[OldPanther]

Agree Griffin is probably safe.

Although your suggestion that the coach should be moved to retain players - particularly Moylan who reportedly didn't appreciate discipline or copping a spray - is a dangerous approach any club. If a coach doesn't have the ability to instil discipline, well you may as well get Matt Elliott back.

I don't think mx is saying they should be moved on to retain players just that the club backed the coach in this situation.

 

[mxlegend99]

Did I miss the part where Bryce left because of Griffin?

Bryce didnt like playing 6 and he had spent the preseason training there. He knew he would get limited minutes here as a benchie.

Not saying Bryce disliked him. But in an article on why he left a big part of it was related to his role with us. Thrre were other reasons obviously, but the point had nothing to do with him or Moylan anyway. They were just used as evidence on how we know Hook is safe.

The club has backed him ahead of players already. There's simply no way they go and sack him now. The story is obviously bullshit. That's the point.

 

[Abacus]

Bryce didnt like playing 6 and he had spent the preseason training there. He knew he would get limited minutes here as a benchie.

Not saying Bryce disliked him. But in an article on why he left a big part of it was related to his role with us. Thrre were other reasons obviously, but the point had nothing to do with him or Moylan anyway. They were just used as evidence on how we know Hook is safe.

The club has backed him ahead of players already. There's simply no way they go and sack him now. The story is obviously bullshit. That's the point.

Moylan was reportedly trouble, bad attitude, etc.
Bryce the junior superstar struggling to fit into NRL. External forces contributing to his move out of Sydney.

Maybe theres more to both exits than we've been told, the club wants a clean slate for any new coach or some new development between Gus, Griffin and/or players.

Or maybe your denial is you just not wanting to get your hopes up

 

[mxlegend99]

Why is everyone reading between the lines into something that wasn't said at all?

Rumour is Hook is being sacked. I use club actions recently that show he's safe and that rumour is bullshit yet people are still trying to twist it and argue with it.

It's that simple. The club extended Hook recently. Players who were unhappy with him/the direction of the club are now gone. Hook is safe. Sacking him now would look so stupid and raise even more questions about what was going on.

 

[Pomoz]

Hence I said almost totally juniors.

80% is a massive figure.

And 80% is also wildly unrealistic. We will not win titles with 80% local juniors.

My point wasn’t just limited to juniors though, it was to the age of the team.

2003 Grand Final team was 55% players who debuted for the club. 1991 was 75%. Although I’d argue the comp was very different in 1991.

The Broncos have been wildly successful by following this strategy. They produce most of their players and top up their team with superstars. You shouldn't be dogmatic about 80%, it is an aspiration, sometimes it could be 60%, but that doesn't matter. The first thing is to make sure you have the pathways in place that you are actually producing juniors that are good enough. After 1991 we were hopeless at this. We signed a load of journeyman for the next ten years until we finally become competitive again and then back to the wilderness for ten years.

I quoted your point about the age of the team and as I said, I think Gus kick started us with juniors to get the production line working. Gus could have signed more experienced players and reduced the numbers of juniors and it would have increased the age of the team, but it would also have delayed our juniors getting opportunities. We don't know, but I think once Gus knew he couldn't get an absolute top quality half when Thurston and Carney turned us down, he realised we couldn't win a premiership so there was no benefit in adding more experience. Soward and Wallace were Ok and helped the youngsters develop, but we were never going to win a premiership with these two as halves.

As it turns out, even with the second youngest roster in the comp we could make the eight two years in a row. Luck? Maybe. Soft competition? Maybe. Easy draw? Maybe. Regardless we still managed to turn up and do what it took to make week two.

So here we are, still a young roster but at least we have an experienced schemer at 5/8th and Cleary will be in his second full season. This year will be the most interesting of the last few years for a number of reasons:

• Will Hook be able to improve our attack? The worst conversion in the red zone last year. Stone motherless last. The view is he can't coach attack. He has to deliver, because this goes to the heart of why we don't beat top 8 sides. We pin them down, toil away, get frustrated and then they score after being without the ball for 10 minutes. Arrgh!;
• Can Cleary step up? He has to take some responsibility for the poor conversion rate. Is he just an average halfback but with El Masri like goal kicking qualities?;
• Can Edwards step up his all round game? His running game was NRL quality last year. Now we need to see if he can provide for others which is an important part of the fullback's game;
• Do we have an NRL quality hooker lurking inside Egan? Katoa is OK, but Egan shows much more potential.
• Is Maloney past it? F*ck, I hope not!

 

[Black Magik]

From a club that let Brennan go!

Unless they are signing Belamy

 

[OldPanther]

The Broncos have been wildly successful by following this strategy. They produce most of their players and top up their team with superstars. You shouldn't be dogmatic about 80%, it is an aspiration, sometimes it could be 60%, but that doesn't matter. The first thing is to make sure you have the pathways in place that you are actually producing juniors that are good enough. After 1991 we were hopeless at this. We signed a load of journeyman for the next ten years until we finally become competitive again and then back to the wilderness for ten years.

I quoted your point about the age of the team and as I said, I think Gus kick started us with juniors to get the production line working. Gus could have signed more experienced players and reduced the numbers of juniors and it would have increased the age of the team, but it would also have delayed our juniors getting opportunities. We don't know, but I think once Gus knew he couldn't get an absolute top quality half when Thurston and Carney turned us down, he realised we couldn't win a premiership so there was no benefit in adding more experience. Soward and Wallace were Ok and helped the youngsters develop, but we were never going to win a premiership with these two as halves.

As it turns out, even with the second youngest roster in the comp we could make the eight two years in a row. Luck? Maybe. Soft competition? Maybe. Easy draw? Maybe. Regardless we still managed to turn up and do what it took to make week two.

So here we are, still a young roster but at least we have an experienced schemer at 5/8th and Cleary will be in his second full season. This year will be the most interesting of the last few years for a number of reasons:

• Will Hook be able to improve our attack? The worst conversion in the red zone last year. Stone motherless last. The view is he can't coach attack. He has to deliver, because this goes to the heart of why we don't beat top 8 sides. We pin them down, toil away, get frustrated and then they score after being without the ball for 10 minutes. Arrgh!;
• Can Cleary step up? He has to take some responsibility for the poor conversion rate. Is he just an average halfback but with El Masri like goal kicking qualities?;
• Can Edwards step up his all round game. His running game was NRL quality last year. Now we need to see if he can provide for others which is an important part of the fullback's game;
• Do we have an NRL quality hooker lurking inside Egan? Katoa is OK, but Egan shows much more potential.
• Is Maloney past it? F*ck, I hope not!

Based on the small sample size of yesterday I'd say all of your dot pounts are covered. Look at the first backline move in the highlights. Smoothest I've seen us since 2016.

 

[OldPanther]

From a club that let Brennan go!

Unless they are signing Belamy

I wish.

 

[herbert henry1908]

The Broncos have been wildly successful by following this strategy. They produce most of their players and top up their team with superstars. You shouldn't be dogmatic about 80%, it is an aspiration, sometimes it could be 60%, but that doesn't matter. The first thing is to make sure you have the pathways in place that you are actually producing juniors that are good enough. After 1991 we were hopeless at this. We signed a load of journeyman for the next ten years until we finally become competitive again and then back to the wilderness for ten years.

Broncos are a one team town in a city of 2 million, totally different dynamics.

It’s not dogma, it’s being realistic. We simply won’t be able to produce the talent required to win a competition with 80% juniors. We produce some great talent to be sure, but modern professional sport needs the widest net possible.

I quoted your point about the age of the team and as I said, I think Gus kick started us with juniors to get the production line working. Gus could have signed more experienced players and reduced the numbers of juniors and it would have increased the age of the team, but it would also have delayed our juniors getting opportunities. We don't know, but I think once Gus knew he couldn't get an absolute top quality half when Thurston and Carney turned us down, he realised we couldn't win a premiership so there was no benefit in adding more experience. Soward and Wallace were Ok and helped the youngsters develop, but we were never going to win a premiership with these two as halves.

If there’s been a best or nothing strategy in regards to recruitment I think that’s a mistake. Plenty of average, experienced players have a lot to contribute to junior development. Could be their work ethic at training, might be their ability to get the little things done in games. Many things.

Juniors don’t learn from other juniors in my experience. Young teams across a wide range of professional sports struggle, no matter their talent level.

Asit turns out, even with the second youngest roster in the comp we could make the eight two years in a row. Luck? Maybe. Soft competition? Maybe. Easy draw? Maybe. Regardless we still managed to turn up and do what it took to make week two.

Hence why this year is make or break, we need to see signs of genuine improvement & not resting on the young team reasoning.

 

[Abacus]

Why is everyone reading between the lines into something that wasn't said at all?

Rumour is Hook is being sacked. I use club actions recently that show he's safe and that rumour is bullshit yet people are still trying to twist it and argue with it.

It's that simple. The club extended Hook recently. Players who were unhappy with him/the direction of the club are now gone. Hook is safe. Sacking him now would look so stupid and raise even more questions about what was going on.

Rumours thread MX. Voice your opinion but try not to get frazzled when others voice a conflicting 1.

Sometimes there may be aspects any of us haven't considered. Hence why we post on a forum.

 

[mxlegend99]

Rumours thread MX. Voice your opinion but try not to get frazzled when others voice a conflicting 1.

Sometimes there may be aspects any of us haven't considered. Hence why we post on a forum.

I dont care about a different opinion. This place would be pointless if there was no discussion.

I gave my opinion on why I thought that rumour is bullshit. Disagree with my opinion on that. I dont care. I never said I did. If its true... well that would be weird. But whatever.

But everyone has been reading what I said as some sort of Carty/Moylan based agenda when they were never the point of the post. They were only ever used as evidence to why I don't believe the rumour. Nothing more. I dont know why people are do fixated on that and ignoring the actual point I used them to make.

We're going around in circles here. I dont think we even have a different opinion on this. Do you think Hook is getting sacked?

 

[Abacus]

Broncos are a one team town in a city of 2 million, totally different dynamics.

It’s not dogma, it’s being realistic. We simply won’t be able to produce the talent required to win a competition with 80% juniors. We produce some great talent to be sure, but modern professional sport needs the widest net possible.

If there’s been a best or nothing strategy in regards to recruitment I think that’s a mistake. Plenty of average, experienced players have a lot to contribute to junior development. Could be their work ethic at training, might be their ability to get the little things done in games. Many things.

Juniors don’t learn from other juniors in my experience. Young teams across a wide range of professional sports struggle, no matter their talent level.

Hence why this year is make or break, we need to see signs of genuine improvement & not resting on the young team reasoning.

I don't disagree with your points but it reads as though your trying to apply a generic approach. Key in applying any strategy is understanding the current resourcing. If new recruits are more expensive and/or no better than you already have coming through, then why bother?

I see the current approach as building our foundation. As you said "Young teams across a wide range of professional sports struggle, no matter their talent level." However as those young teams gain experience and access to key, top level recruits, then you have a talented team able to compete with the best.

I understand the eagerness to have a successful season. I guess I'm happy to show more patience if we can establish success over a number of seasons. Also important to understand the difficulties in achieving a successful season:

2014 was good because we kept our spine together all season. 2015 was shit because they only played a handful of games together.

We had neither a settled nor experienced spine for 2016 or 2017 through injuries, reshuffles and debuts. Genuine improvement will need at least a consistent spine.

 

[Abacus]

I dont care about a different opinion. This place would be pointless if there was no discussion.

I gave my opinion on why I thought that rumour is bullshit. Disagree with my opinion on that. I dont care. I never said I did. If its true... well that would be weird. But whatever.

But everyone has been reading what I said as some sort of Carty/Moylan based agenda when they were never the point of the post. They were only ever used as evidence to why I don't believe the rumour. Nothing more. I dont know why people are do fixated on that and ignoring the actual point I used them to make.

We're going around in circles here. I dont think we even have a different opinion on this. Do you think Hook is getting sacked?

I think he could be getting replaced - yes.

My point was that sometimes a sequence of events is just that. I think poor timing (or good work by the Titans) saw Latu released before Bryce. Similarly, despite Moylan et al being released, I could still see Griffin being replaced - particularly if rumours of Gus at training are also true.

If it were true we would have kept Carty and Moylan..

I don't see how this could be interpreted as anything other than the players left because of the coach.

 

[hindy111]

Look at Hiku's signing. The club side of they were signing a test player. People on here have said they should of not signed him and had faith in the kids.

Either way the club is damned. Personally I'd prefer a few journey men at the lower end of the squad. Though on the other side of it they would. They would take a NSW Cup spot of someone like Sivo. So I see both sides

Dumb signing I agree. Should of front loaded some other guys contracts. He was needed and was poor cap management for future.