St George Illawarra poll

[legend]

Guys, I am of the opinion St George would not have survived past 1998 as a stand alone club. I have no factual evidence to back up my opinion, just speculation as to why and it all revolves around $$$.

Why would a supposedly successful club, flush with millions of dollars, decide to merge with another less successful club, potentially alienate their supporter base and potenitally lose their identity?

If you were the CEO or a football club member, would you have voted for this merger to go ahead and why?

Surely, if you look at the "rich" tradition of the Dragons, why would any fanatical supporter vote to dilute the clubs identity with another?

 

[Alan Shore]

Guys, I am of the opinion St George would not have survived past 1998 as a stand alone club. I have no factual evidence to back up my opinion, just speculation as to why and it all revolves around $$$.

Why would a supposedly successful club, flush with millions of dollars, decide to merge with another less successful club, potentially alienate their supporter base and potenitally lose their identity?

If you were the CEO or a football club member, would you have voted for this merger to go ahead and why?

Surely, if you look at the "rich" tradition of the Dragons, why would any fanatical supporter vote to dilute the clubs identity with another?

Very well said Legend. They whored themselves out to Illawarra for a reason.....$8,000,000.

 

[beast]

Both Saints and Illawarra were ARL teams..they were teams loyal to league not the whoremongers that we know as Super League clubs. The ARL clubs were the ones being targetted with destruction or merger due to the unfair and biased criteria that the News/NRL were then putting forward.
Neither club could rely on Packer support as he had done the dirty and got into bed with NewsLtd..so they took the safest option and took the cash and the joint venture. Other clubs such as the Bears and Souths tried other options and were severely punished.
None of the ARL clubs had News Ltd granting them soft loans of many millions prior to the criteria or had NewsLtd undertaking to pay all their debts to ensure they made the criteria..if it were a genuine criteria without the backroom corruption involving News Ltd then the teams may well be very different to those running around at the moment.

 

[legend]

Beast, I was lead to believe that Optus shelled out a similar amount of money as News Ltd to keep the ARL clubs flying. This maybe incorrect and I am happy to be proven otherwise but when both sides came back together SL gave up the Hunter Mariners, Western Reds and Adelaide Rams.

While my belief is the Mariners could not have survived regardless of who ran the game, I do think Perth and Adelaide were on the verge of establishing footholds in predominant AFL towns, especially the Rams who were enjoying success at the end of the 1998 season.

Now to the Dragons. When the merger was proposed what steps did the club undertake to seek the backing of the football club members? I'm assuming a vote of both the St George and Illawarra football club members would have been the logical step before any merger could be approved by the NRL.

I'd be interested to hear what reasons board members of the St George football club outlined for a yes vote to merge the two clubs. I'm confident financial security would have been a major platform used by the board to sway members who may have been sitting on the fence.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd be interested to hear what reasons board members of the St George football club outlined for a yes vote to merge the two clubs. I'm confident financial security would have been a major platform used by the board to sway members who may have been sitting on the fence.

Fact is, you don't know.
The joint venture, as it was called (not a merger) was designed to assist Illawarra financially rather than see them go broke and therefore have the area carved up amongst the other NRL clubs. Thats just a small part of it.

How is it that the Illawarra Steelers could provide financial security to St George? It was the other way around.
Next you'll be telling us that Mal Meninga had a long and fruitful political career. :lol:

Add it up. St George were never going broke... if they were going broke in 1999, they would going belly-up now because its been almost 5 years and they're still bank rolling the JV.

If Saints tried to push on past 1999 in their own right, it's pretty obvious they would have gone the way of the Gold Coast.

The above quote is from a duplicate discussion in the Dragons section where there is more on this subject and a detailed response has been given. You were losing the debate over there, so the easy solution is to shift your opinion to another section. :twisted: I have hand it to you... never let the lack of facts get in the way of telling yarn.
Spread enough billshit and something will eventually grow eh?

When I asked you to explain how you came to that conclusion, you said it was because a friend of yours, a 'diehard Saints fan' told you as much. When pressed, your sources multiplied into 'several people including Saints fans'. lol.
And lastly, it was your undying belief that 'the majority of RL fans' agreed with you. It just got more ridiculous as time went on.

Now we have a poll. LOL.. and sticky as well. Top stuff. :lol:

 

[beast]

Legend- The Optus crowd made promises to match the News Ltd dough but when Packer jumped ship they reneged and washed their hands of the whole affair. The Mariners were merely a spoiler team..something to irritate the Knights for their loyalty to league.
The other two clubs..Adelaide and Perth should have been persisted with but by that stage the costs of players and running teams had spiralled out of control and I assume it was considered they were too expensive to maintain.
Now that News Ltd or Foxtel has AFL in the bag they are happy to have all the AFL supporters as subscribers..league will not be pushed very much in those regions any more which is a shame.

 

[Alan Shore]

How is it that the Illawarra Steelers could provide financial security to St George?

$8,000,000 from the NRL for whoring out to each other, that's how.

 

[Anonymous]

How is it that the Illawarra Steelers could provide financial security to St George?

$8,000,000 from the NRL for whoring out to each other, that's how.

Where did you get that figure from? I only ask because it was a while ago and I'd like to source it. In any case, are you basing your whole theory on a one-off grant which was quickly swallowed up by players' salaries....? Remember, the JV agreement allowed Saints a larger salary cap and there were a number of other JV costs as well.

There's no way the club could have survived alone on any one-off grant from the NRL. Sure, any grant is an incentive but by and large, this would have been simply revenue to cover the costs of the JV.

There's a similar offer on right now to the first club that relocates to the Gold Coast and this is designed as an incentive but also to cover costs. I'm sure the Sharks are well aware of the relocation grant.

 

[legend]

Fact is, you don't know.
The joint venture, as it was called (not a merger) was designed to assist Illawarra financially rather than see them go broke and therefore have the area carved up amongst the other NRL clubs. Thats just a small part of it.

How is it that the Illawarra Steelers could provide financial security to St George? It was the other way around.
Next you'll be telling us that Mal Meninga had a long and fruitful political career.

Add it up. St George were never going broke... if they were going broke in 1999, they would going belly-up now because its been almost 5 years and they're still bank rolling the JV.

Did I ever say at any time that I knew? That's why I asked the question. Very difficult to comprehend I know but maybe you should read what is being said before you go off in a tangent.

Did I ever say the Steelers could provide financial security to St George? Please outline where I said that and again, are you going off half cocked with your own conspiracy theories in a poor attempt to discredit the discussion?

So by your quote above, St George had absolutely nothing to gain out of the joint venture, it was all for the benefit of Illawarra? You mentioned bullshit, well there's a few tons good enough to make my lawn look great for the next five years.

So by your theory, St George did it as a favour to help the poor old Steelers and risked losing a lot of supporters in the process, all because they wanted to do a favour for another club?

The 8 million was a salary cap I believe but there was also a carrot dangled by the NRL in an attempt to get clubs to merge and this carrot would been in the millions of dollars.

So if it was not for the money, then why did St George agree on a joint venture with Illawarra? If there was no financial incentive from the NRL, do you honestly think St George still would have gone ahead with the joint venture and if yes, please outline your reasons why.

 

[Anonymous]

Did I ever say at any time that I knew?

In the other thread you seemed to think you had all the answers but now you're just asking questions.
So on that point, I agree with you... you don't know... so what's the problem?

That's why I asked the question. Very difficult to comprehend I know but maybe you should read what is being said before you go off in a tangent.

I did answer your question in the Dragons forum but it must have been too much for you because you took off and here we are with your silly poll and you trying to prove something that you know nothing about. LOL
;-)

Did I ever say the Steelers could provide financial security to St George? Please outline where I said that and again, are you going off half cocked with your own conspiracy theories in a poor attempt to discredit the discussion?

What? The Steeler's situation is relevant to the answer that you are seeking. Did you want an answer?
It sounds like you agree with me that the Steelers were not financially viable anymore. That being case, you must also concede that St George were providing financial backing to the Joint Venture.

So by your quote above, St George had absolutely nothing to gain out of the joint venture, it was all for the benefit of Illawarra?

I never said that... never ever have I suggested that St George had nothing to gain from the JV. I have gone to great lengths to explain the benefits for both St George and Illawarra. Some of this is in the forum that you ran away from.

So by your theory, St George did it as a favour to help the poor old Steelers and risked losing a lot of supporters in the process, all because they wanted to do a favour for another club?

Once again putting words into my mouth in an effort to drive the discussion.
I thought the question was whether or not St George in 1999 were going to fold in the same manner as the Gold Coast... as you have claimed. I'm showing you how unlikely that scenario is.

So if it was not for the money, then why did St George agree on a joint venture with Illawarra? If there was no financial incentive from the NRL, do you honestly think St George still would have gone ahead with the joint venture and if yes, please outline your reasons why.

I never said there was no financial incentive. READ what I said. Nevetheless, as I have also said, there were other more long term benefits for both parties if the JV went ahead.

In particular, the joint venture would control a larger junior base which was in danger of being carved up on the open market.

Graeme Langlands has often described the Illawarra district as having a 'huge backyard' and it makes sense to try and keep all this under the same roof.

So... in very very simple terms, St George have the money and Illawarra have the 'backyard'.

St George supporters accepted this basic arrangement a long time ago. I find it amusing that several years later I am explaining it someone who by his own admission, doesn't give a shit about St George.

 

[Benny]

Just to clarify i think the grant was around the $8 million mark and i know some of the money went towards Illawarra's debts, some went on paying out players contracts and higher salries etc and the majority of the rest was spent on logistics of setting up the joint venture

St George are one of the wealthier clubs today, Doust has been quoted as saying numerous times of a higher salary cap as they are one of the teams that can afford or are in a position to offer more money to players (other included were Brisbane, Parrmatta and the Bulldogs)

Why would we merge from a St George point of view:

Cause the Illawarra is rich with juniors that the St George area simply cannot provide. We now have the best of both worlds, money and good young talent. Our future is secure and us sydney based supporters still have the emblem, red v, and the name.

 

[legend]

Cause the Illawarra is rich with juniors that the St George area simply cannot provide. We now have the best of both worlds, money and good young talent. Our future is secure and us sydney based supporters still have the emblem, red v, and the name.

Thank you Benny. This was the crux of my argument all along and you just admitted as much. St George simply did not have the juniors and needed to the joint venture to gain access to the Illawarra juniors, most of which make up your first grade side.

So if St George could not provide the juniors which you have just admitted to, how would they have survived long term without the joint venture?

Yes, your future is secure but Willow was making out this was done more to assist the Steelers than the Dragons when, by your own admission, the Dragons needed the Illawarra's nursery to survive.

Thank you gents. No more discussion from me in this thread. I got the result I was after.

Good day!

 

[Anonymous]

So if St George could not provide the juniors which you have just admitted to, how would they have survived long term without the joint venture?

No one has said that St George could not provide juniors. Formalising the Illawarra junior base into a joint venrure merely made the future more secure as Benny pointed out.

Yes, your future is secure but Willow was making out this was done more to assist the Steelers than the Dragons when, by your own admission, the Dragons needed the Illawarra's nursery to survive.

No I never said that. Once again, spread around enough bullshit in the hope that something will grow.

You have raised this in two forums and I have repeatedly pointed out the importance of securing the Illawarra junior base. If the joint venture never took place, St George would have simply gone into the marketplace like any other team and bidded for the ex-Steelers players. The joint venture presented an opportunity to lock up the whole junior base while at the same time, receiving an incentive from the NRL thereby releasing the new JV from any Steelers debts and other JV-related costs.

Thank you gents. No more discussion from me in this thread. I got the result I was after.

Good day!

LOL. Thats code for: Better run away... I seem to be losing the argument here as well. :lol:

 

[legend]

No one has said that St George could not provide juniors. Formalising the Illawarra junior base into a joint venrure merely made the future more secure as Benny pointed out.

Is Benny no one?

This is what Benny said:

Cause the Illawarra is rich with juniors that the St George area simply cannot provide. We now have the best of both worlds, money and good young talent. Our future is secure and us sydney based supporters still have the emblem, red v, and the name.

Benny's comments seem a little different to yours. Is your say absolute and no else matters?[/b]

 

[legend]

Willow, I have to congratulate you. You are the master of jumping to conclusions and trying to put words in people's mouth. :roll:

 

[Benny]

i'd like to think i was a somebody

It is true that we cannot provide the juniors Illawarra can, but i never said that we couldn't provide them ( i mean we could of still had players such as Lance Thompson, Daniel Wagon, Joel Caine, Anthony Mundine etc) and had other players such as Mark Gasnier, Garry McBride, Craig Stapleton and might have held onto some other players such as Michael Korkidas, Junior Langi and sure to be some other ones that i forgot about

So i don't think it would be all doom and gloom and like other clubs such as Melbourne and the Roosters who seem to be able to survive and prosper go out into the market place and buy players and have a sound development recruiting process which has seen players such as Gordon Tallis, Nathan Brown and Amos Roberts identified and brought to the club

Though now we don't really have to go into marketplace and can rely on juniors coming through (which puts us in a stronger position)

Legend i know it may have been black and white what i posted but you seem to have taken me out of context. Though if you do take my comment as what i said, you never mentioned anything bout the money (money makes the world go round and with money you'll survive)

 

[Anonymous]

Legend, I think it's clear that you have misread Benny's post... for that matter, you've misread just about every post on this subject... across two forums.

i'd like to think i was a somebody

It is true that we cannot provide the juniors Illawarra can, but i never said that we couldn't provide them ( i mean we could of still had players such as Lance Thompson, Daniel Wagon, Joel Caine, Anthony Mundine etc) and had other players such as Mark Gasnier, Garry McBride, Craig Stapleton and might have held onto some other players such as Michael Korkidas, Junior Langi and sure to be some other ones that i forgot about

So i don't think it would be all doom and gloom and like other clubs such as Melbourne and the Roosters who seem to be able to survive and prosper go out into the market place and buy players and have a sound development recruiting process which has seen players such as Gordon Tallis, Nathan Brown and Amos Roberts identified and brought to the club

Though now we don't really have to go into marketplace and can rely on juniors coming through (which puts us in a stronger position)

Legend i know it may have been black and white what i posted but you seem to have taken me out of context. Though if you do take my comment as what i said, you never mentioned anything bout the money (money makes the world go round and with money you'll survive)

Benny, I agree with everything you said and you've brought clarity to the discussion.
Of course, its not as black and white as Legend says.

We have a strong monetary situation... just as we did in 1998. And we also have a stronger junior base because of the JV. That is, the combination of the St George junior base and the large Illawarra junior base.

Despite the shuffling of opinion, Legend's view was that St George would have not have survived past 1999. I think we've successfully debunked that theory.

 

[Dragon Fanatic]

Legend have you ever been out to a club game at Renown Park or Hurstville oval or Evatt park on a aSaturday or Sunday afternoon? Your comments on no juniors is we dont have a lot. That is true to some extent, the St George Juniors aren't the biggest but we have emmense talent running around for their club! Have you ever heard the saying it Quality not Quantity!

 

[Mr Angry]

I think St.George would have survived on there own - would have struggled but survived.

Merging with Illawarra was a great move for them, now to get the Sharks to die or relocate.

Then the master plan complete.

Less Sydney teams needed.

 

[millersnose]

it is sad that st george did not survive

all that history

"sigh"