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Surely it is time for the NRL.....

Mong

Post Whore
Messages
55,684
Where did i say they were basing any existance on fans travelling 8 hours to home games?

Are you completely incapable of sticking to what is being said? it certainly seems that way.

In any case, i doubt CQ will get a go, not now anyhow, there are other markets that are required first.. None in NSW though and especially none anywhere near Sydney !!
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
Where did i say they were basing any existance on fans travelling 8 hours to home games?
I dunno. You tell me.
You did endorse Didgi when he said it though. Common sense I think you mentioned.



In any case, i doubt CQ will get a go, not now anyhow, there are other markets that are required first.. None in NSW though and especially none anywhere near Sydney !!

Here's the crux of the matter. You are a NSW hater. Of course. There are 1 million people between Kirribill and Doyalson waiting for the Bears go-ahead, but they, for some reason in your mind, wont follow RL as much as 76k in Rocky, another 40ks in the region and another few thousand who will all travel 3-8 hours to see each game.

You are a f*cking nutter.
 

Goddo

Bench
Messages
4,257
Loudstrat - the Bears are a bad idea because there are already 10 teams in NSW fighting for market share. They will compete with NSW clubs for exposure, fans and sponsors while not really adding any new revenue for the game through TV rights/major sponsors. While it might be nice to revive an old brand which still has fans, its not really ecconomically feasible for the NRL to do so (as it heads into renegotiating its media, TV and sponsorship rights), which is frustrating when two or three current Sydney teams are absolute sh!te.

Mong - CQ has some of the same drawbacks as the Bears, plus they are a small population regional area. They will be secure in funding as a club through mining sponsors, but will have crap crowds (prob around 10-12k mark), and don't add as much TV revenue as say Brisbane because its a bigger metro market. Plus, it may hurt the Cowboys, particularily around Mackay (which has a Cowboys Q Cup feeder side).

The NRL has in the past given an indication of where they want teams - Perth, Wellington, Brisbane, Adelaide, Sunshine Coast, Ipswich-Logan corridor and the Central Coast (but have tried to get relocations in the past to some of these locations). All these locations have a common theme - they are in or next to big metro markets.

The favourites have to be

1. South East Queensland with a total regional population around 3.5M, great TV ratings, lots of sponsors and only two sides is a no brainer, and
2. Perth - Australias 4th largest city, mining boom, Oztam Ratings, unique TV timeslot.
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
Goddo, the NSW market is a massive market. Arguably the largest unrepresented market exists in the central coast, combined with the north shore - which is also unrepresented, there is a million people. Unlike the second Brisbane bid - these people do not have a local team.

There is a definite factor favouring new clubs in new areas. Fans of existing teams will only drop them for one reason - the creation of a local side to follow. There are no local options on the north shore or Central Coast. There IS a local option in Brisbane.

The only argument people have for the Bears is the stupid "postcode" argument. If that 1 million people was anywhere outside NSW it would have 100% support. On that point alone it craps on Perth, because there is no AFL influence to overcome.

Perth, of course, like the Bears, has it's sh*t together, and done the hard yards with the juniors. Nothing else at this stage comes close.

Anyway, part of this argument is culling Sydney sides to make way for new teams. With NRL making expansion noises for 2015 to add 2 new teams, a cull is only needed for 3 or more new teams, if the NRL imposes an 18 team ceiling. And to make that call, the new team has to basically guarantee it would do better than the bottom Sydney sides.

Why Sydney sides? Because of double standards. The bottom crowd pulling Sydney sides traditionally mingle with a couple of non Sydney sides in crowd stats. Melbourne and Canberra are the culprits, and the Titans are there as well this year. But no one would think of punting Melbourne, Canberra or Gold Coast, because of the obvious representation of theoir district. Yet Melbourne can cause the code massive damage - big enough basically to declare 2 seasons completely null and void. Cronulla on the other hand is on the chopping block because they survive on a meagre budget?

People fill stadiums, buy tickets, buy merchandise and keep clubs running. Gold Coast is no better than Cronulla ATM. Yet the Titans were brought in for the same reasons people was backing the Bombers and CQ bids. The extra QLD side on TV, the unrepresented population. What has it achieved? At least it wasnt at the expense of another club.

No club should have ever been axed, and no club should be. If a club cannot continue to operate, then so be it. This year, Cronulla actually climbed off the canvas. Expecting every club to make the finals is a rediculous thing when each year every club cannot make the finals.

This is why the old 20 team comp idea needs to be rethought. Perth and Central Coast are ready to go now - except for recruitment. If given the go ahead for 2013, they could cobble together competetive sides, and if aimed at 2014 they could snare some big names as well.

From there, if the Bombers, CQ or Wellington bidded, and two were selected, there's your 20 team comp. many will say a 20 team comp is a terrible idea. It's only 2 more than 18 ffs, and the calling for an 18 team comp is virtually unanimous. The [roblem is though that RL is not strong enough to pick and choose which areas it wants to represent. It needs Cronulla and the Bears as much as it needs anywhere.

We are he only code in the country who has not consolidated all it's heartland yet. That should be our goal, not decimating it.
 

AlwaysGreen

Immortal
Messages
47,945
The most financially able clubs have always been able to spend a lot more on their football operations thus giving them an advantage over the poorer clubs.

In recent history (2000 onwards) we had a big 4 of wealthy Sydney clubs - easts, canterbury, parramatta and the dragons. Through good management wests and souths have been able to join them leaving penrith, cronulla and manly behind. So it could be said that since 2000 the plight of Sydney clubs has improved. Penrith have the potential to join the big 6. Manly and Cronulla remain in a tight spot.

Unfortunately the cost of running a side will continue to rise, whether the sharks and sea eagles can keep up is difficult to say, hopefully yes.
 

Mong

Post Whore
Messages
55,684
I dunno. You tell me.
You did endorse Didgi when he said it though. Common sense I think you mentioned.





Here's the crux of the matter. You are a NSW hater. Of course. There are 1 million people between Kirribill and Doyalson waiting for the Bears go-ahead, but they, for some reason in your mind, wont follow RL as much as 76k in Rocky, another 40ks in the region and another few thousand who will all travel 3-8 hours to see each game.

You are a f*cking nutter.

What a pile of shite.. I support a NSW team.

Why on earth would a comp looking to expand put yet another team in close proximity to numerous other existing teams.

it simply makes no sense.

Perth and another Brisbane team is what should happen. That's not NSW hating, that's some common sense.
 

Mong

Post Whore
Messages
55,684
Mong - CQ has some of the same drawbacks as the Bears, plus they are a small population regional area. They will be secure in funding as a club through mining sponsors, but will have crap crowds (prob around 10-12k mark), and don't add as much TV revenue as say Brisbane because its a bigger metro market. Plus, it may hurt the Cowboys, particularily around Mackay (which has a Cowboys Q Cup feeder side).

.

I doubt it will hurt the cowboys and i have no doubt their crowds will be bigger than that but over all i agree with you, i haven't said they should be in front of Perth and another Brisbane team.
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
What a pile of shite.. I support a NSW team.
OK. Maybe I misjudged you there. Do you support the introduction of another team at the expense of a NSW side?

Why on earth would a comp looking to expand put yet another team in close proximity to numerous other existing teams.

it simply makes no sense.
Because there is an unrepresented population of 1 million people!!!! Have yopu ever noticed that sometimes Maccas opens an outlet which is near another Maccas outlet - and they both do well? It is because they have the market to do so!
Perth and another Brisbane team is what should happen. That's not NSW hating, that's some common sense.
Bluetongue is too close to Parramatta, ANZ or Ausgrid, but Lang Park is far enough away from Lang Park?

And you aint on an anti NSW agenda?
 

Ausguy

Coach
Messages
14,887
The most financially able clubs have always been able to spend a lot more on their football operations thus giving them an advantage over the poorer clubs.

In recent history (2000 onwards) we had a big 4 of wealthy Sydney clubs - easts, canterbury, parramatta and the dragons. Through good management wests and souths have been able to join them leaving penrith, cronulla and manly behind. So it could be said that since 2000 the plight of Sydney clubs has improved. Penrith have the potential to join the big 6. Manly and Cronulla remain in a tight spot.

Unfortunately the cost of running a side will continue to rise, whether the sharks and sea eagles can keep up is difficult to say, hopefully yes.

You couldn't be more wrong about penrith.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,910
Looking at Penriths income before the support of the leagues clubs (12.5mill) it would suggest they have a very long way to go before they are up there with the top clubs from a financial perspective.
 

Billythekid

First Grade
Messages
6,570
Why Sydney sides? Because of double standards. The bottom crowd pulling Sydney sides traditionally mingle with a couple of non Sydney sides in crowd stats. Melbourne and Canberra are the culprits, and the Titans are there as well this year. But no one would think of punting Melbourne, Canberra or Gold Coast, because of the obvious representation of theoir district. Yet Melbourne can cause the code massive damage - big enough basically to declare 2 seasons completely null and void. Cronulla on the other hand is on the chopping block because they survive on a meagre budget?

No one would think of punting Melbourne because of how much they add to the value of our comp. Did you see the ratings we got in Melbourne this year for the finals games where it was shown? Not to mention what they got for tests and SOO. Melbourne is a huge growth area for the NRL and we need the storm in the comp for this to happen. This not only affects our tv deal but also every teams ability to attract sponsors.

In terms of being financially viable the storm are lightyears ahead of teams like the sharks. The storm pull in huge amount of sponsorship dollars and are one of the top teams in this regard. I'm pretty sure the club does quite well with merchandise sales as well.

Fair enough the storm have been under-performing with crowds but at least there is room for growth. The sharks and Manly have been around for a long time in RL heartlands. If their crowds were going to go up surely we would have seen it by now.

The storm are in an area with a growing RL presence which should see crowd numbers being able to rise. They also have a stadium with a high enough capacity to facilitate this.

The storm are also one of the leading teams when it comes to memberships.

I also don't see how there is any comparison with the titans. They represent a much larger area than the sharks and have shown a much greater potential for crowds and the ability to bring in revenue from other means.

Before you start calling me a Sydney hater i am not saying we should kick out a Sydney team and i would love to see the bears in the comp. I'm just arguing with the BS that the sharks have anywhere near as much value as the titans or the storm.
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
Would agree with all of that if News Ltd didnt pump - what - $12 million into the Storm each year?
 

Ausguy

Coach
Messages
14,887
Exactly

As for cronulla as Newman said somewhere you can eiminate cronulla from the discussion. It's very clear cut. Approval of their development proposal in march will rule out any fold merge or relocation. No approval and there will be 15 teams. Simple really
 

Billythekid

First Grade
Messages
6,570
Would agree with all of that if News Ltd didnt pump - what - $12 million into the Storm each year?

The amount news ltd pump into the storm is irrelevant. Without that money the storm would still easily be better off than the sharks. They simply wouldn't be able to spend like the broncos. I thought it was closer to 6 million that is actually pumped into the storm.

Also even IF we assume that the storm are only equal footing with the sharks, it still doesn't change the fact that having a presence in Melbourne is far more important than having one in the shire.

The potential for growth in terms of tv ratings, crowds and even juniors (yes i know you will laugh at this) is far greater in Melbourne.

Why do you think they are willing to put that money into the storm in the first place? It's because they know just how valuable the storm are when it comes to ratings on foxtel.
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
Looking at Penriths income before the support of the leagues clubs (12.5mill) it would suggest they have a very long way to go before they are up there with the top clubs from a financial perspective.
What's your income like if we dont count your wages?
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
The amount news ltd pump into the storm is irrelevant. Without that money the storm would still easily be better off than the sharks. They simply wouldn't be able to spend like the broncos. I thought it was closer to 6 million that is actually pumped into the storm.

Also even IF we assume that the storm are only equal footing with the sharks, it still doesn't change the fact that having a presence in Melbourne is far more important than having one in the shire.

The potential for growth in terms of tv ratings, crowds and even juniors (yes i know you will laugh at this) is far greater in Melbourne.

Why do you think they are willing to put that money into the storm in the first place? It's because they know just how valuable the storm are when it comes to ratings on foxtel.
Potential. The most misused word in expansion threads.

Surely Tokyo has more potential still?

As for the Pay TV - how many Melburnians fork out for Pay TV to watch the Storm compared to watching AFL?

About 12% of 1/4 of 3/5 of sweet f*ck all.
 

AlwaysGreen

Immortal
Messages
47,945
You couldn't be more wrong about penrith.

I could be more wrong about penrith - I could suggest that the relocate to Antartica and play basketball.

I think what you are driving at though is that they cannot be financially viable. At the moment they are struggling but this isn't due to a lack of resources but due to poor management of these resources. On the football side Gould has come in and if he puts away his agendas and paranoia should be able to get the most out of their huge junior base. Then it's up to the bean counters to get the leagues club finances up to the standard they should be. IMO Penrith remains Sydney's sleeping giant.
 
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