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The TV rights thread part II

Providing the price is right which is your preferred FTA broadcast option?

  • All games on Seven

    Votes: 11 4.2%
  • All games on Nine

    Votes: 17 6.5%
  • All games on Ten

    Votes: 59 22.6%
  • Seven/Nine split

    Votes: 10 3.8%
  • Seven/Ten split

    Votes: 109 41.8%
  • Nine/Ten split

    Votes: 55 21.1%

  • Total voters
    261
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,925
Arguably more FTa = bigger audiences, better exposure for sponsors and bigger profiule for the game. Of course the game needs cold hard cash more but if a FTA could come close to Fox for Super Saturday and Monday Night covg you'd have to be tempted!

Maybe
Ch9 Friday 2 games and Sunday 2 games
Ch10 Saturday 3 games and Monday nights (eventually also a 3 Sunday game or even a Thursday night game upon expansion)

Fox would go into mass panic if it thought it might actually lose NRL coverage and subscribers!
 

Ron Swanson

Juniors
Messages
510
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember several years ago (possibly 2007) Fox actually allowed Seven/10 to buy all the AFL rights when they were up for grabs. Then those networks realised they'd f**ked up and they would need Fox to offload some of the burden. Fox then played hard ball acting like they didn't even want the rights all that much and bought 4 games a week off those networks for a lot less than if they'd dealt with the AFL direct.

Sounds like Fox could follow that strategy again with the NRL rights, because let's face it, a FTA network really doesn't want the burden of funding and broadcasting all 8 games a week.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,511
but without NRL i doubt fox would even still be viable.

It's not.

If Fox wants to see what a tsunami of a churning rate will be to their subscriptions, lose rugby league.
Even if a bare minimum 20% of rl viewers cancelled just their sports subs (not the total package,which no doubt many would cancel) they would bleed I suggest a min $30m pa.

Throw in the additional loss of advertising revenue,and the mind boggles.

Less subscribers. Less ad revenue. Those ad dollars will just shift to F2A and reinforce the cycle.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember several years ago (possibly 2007) Fox actually allowed Seven/10 to buy all the AFL rights when they were up for grabs. Then those networks realised they'd f**ked up and they would need Fox to offload some of the burden. Fox then played hard ball acting like they didn't even want the rights all that much and bought 4 games a week off those networks for a lot less than if they'd dealt with the AFL direct.

Sounds like Fox could follow that strategy again with the NRL rights, because let's face it, a FTA network really doesn't want the burden of funding and broadcasting all 8 games a week.

It was a different scenario. Foxtel weren't relying on the AFL subscriptions to fund their their business model so they could afford to play hardball.

In the current scenario you've got 9 who needs the NRL if it wants to remain #2, 10 who needs the NRL if it wants to stop [FONT=&quot][/FONT] haemorrhaging cash, 7 who has the cash reserves to mess with the other networks and Premier Group who need to achieve their 50% uptake by 2020.

In the centre of all that is the NRL.
 

undertaker

Coach
Messages
10,817
It's not.



Less subscribers. Less ad revenue. Those ad dollars will just shift to F2A and reinforce the cycle.



It was a different scenario. Foxtel weren't relying on the AFL subscriptions to fund their their business model so they could afford to play hardball.

In the current scenario you've got 9 who needs the NRL if it wants to remain #2, 10 who needs the NRL if it wants to stop haemorrhaging cash, 7 who has the cash reserves to mess with the other networks and Premier Group who need to achieve their 50% uptake by 2020.

In the centre of all that is the NRL.

I appreciate reading all your wonderful insights to the next tv rights deal. However, do you think there's a chance we could get screwed over YET AGAIN, like we did in 2005?
 

Bluebags1908

Juniors
Messages
1,258
Doc, you seem to be in the know with the TV rights deal. Just a few questions I'd like to ask:

1. Is there a genuine possibility of having all 8 games on FTA? This seems quite a workload for the networks to take on... albeit if they are split between all 3 commercial networks and spread over their secondary channels it could be workable.

2. If so, is there a likelihood that the FTA networks will on-sell to Fox, or will there be significant demand for the FTA networks to take on the 'workload' of all 8 games (9 if the comp expands to 18 teams), especially in light of the advent of multichanelling?

3. Doesn't Lachlan Murdoch have a foot in both camps - Ten and Fox (being on the board at Ten, and part ownership links with Fox with his father Rupert & News Ltd)? If so, isn't this a conflict of interest and how could Lachlan Murchoch do the right thing by Ten by buying FTA matches and at the same time resulting in damaging Fox by 'stealing' games off them? Doesn't this reduce the competitive tension between Ten and Fox? Will this disadvantage the NRL in playing hardball with Fox?

4. What are the intentions of Seven? We always hear they want State Of Origin, or is this just lip-service to make Nine nervous? Are they a genuine player for Origin and NRL matches or are they just sitting back enjoying Nine and Ten sweat bricks?

5. Will the representative matches outside Origin be sold separately (All Stars, City vs Country, mid-year test, end of year test, Four Nations, 2013 World Cup) - or will they all be lumped together with origin under a representative package and basically be given away for free? With Origin being the rating equivalent of almost three extra grand finals, I feel it would be a mistake to just lump the other representative games with them because we are missing out on additional revenue if we don't itemise each of these and sell these matches on their own merits. Remember, AFL has none of these extra matches available to sell so we should ram home our advantage.

6. Will Toyota Cup be sold as a separate package, and if so how much do you think it will fetch?

7. With Channel 9 now televising the Queensland Cup, what chance Nine wanting to fill the same timeslot in NSW with the NSW Cup? With the ARLC now overseeing all Rugby League, will the ARLC negotiate this on behalf on the NSWRL or will the NSWRL go at selling the rights alone (I don't have much confidence in the NSWRL doing any sort of decent job selling the rights!).

8. The ARL Commission has very reputable board members with great business acumen. Will they have the balls to take the rights off Fox, or at least significantsly reduce the number of matches on Pay TV from 5 to about 1 or 2 (I would like to see Fox lose all matches, but a reduction from 5 matches to 1 or 2 will still result in a major hit to Fox subscribers in NSW & Queensland).

9. Who on the ARLC or elsewhere (Gallop, LEK, consultants, etc) is doing the actual negotiationg for the ARLC/NRL? Would it be Gary Pemberton?

10. Would Wayne Perce's previous injvolvement with Fox add any significant advantage for the ARLC/NRL at the negotiating table?
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,511
do you think there's a chance we could get screwed over YET AGAIN, like we did in 2005?

Well to be honest anything is possible but I can only think of one previous time when Rugby League rights were so hotly contested and that was the Super League war.

Not trying to suggest that will repeat itself but the concept of a bunch of media tycoons going to war with each other over a sport that has learned from that mistake can only result in good competitive tension, rather than the standard "here's what your gunna get" approach.

1. Is there a genuine possibility of having all 8 games on FTA? This seems quite a workload for the networks to take on... albeit if they are split between all 3 commercial networks and spread over their secondary channels it could be workable.

Yes there is. Though they may not necessarily be available live to all markets at once as they're going to be targeted obviously. That said like on Fridays you'd get that outer market game on delay. Or at best, shown on the non-main concurrently. Depends on the particular timeslots and games available etc. Like a blockbuster may shift and get priority etc.

The Channel 10/Fox concept revolves around airing games to specific markets. Foxtel then essentially become a "premium" ad-free service with viewers having the option of choosing which games they want to watch live.

2. If so, is there a likelihood that the FTA networks will on-sell to Fox, or will there be significant demand for the FTA networks to take on the 'workload' of all 8 games (9 if the comp expands to 18 teams), especially in light of the advent of multichanelling?

7 want to on sell to all networks.
10 want to simulcast.
9 can't even afford to buy the whole package so it's moot.

3. Doesn't Lachlan Murdoch have a foot in both camps - Ten and Fox (being on the board at Ten, and part ownership links with Fox with his father Rupert & News Ltd)? If so, isn't this a conflict of interest and how could Lachlan Murchoch do the right thing by Ten by buying FTA matches and at the same time resulting in damaging Fox by 'stealing' games off them? Doesn't this reduce the competitive tension between Ten and Fox? Will this disadvantage the NRL in playing hardball with Fox?

You're correct.

Premier Group isn't in competition with 10 at all - it is joint effort for the reasons I've stated above.

That said Premier Group's first approach is for the existing bid package. In the second round their F&LR rights for specific elements of that package could be voided by the F2A networks targeting their timeslots - think Saturday nights, Sunday afternoons, Monday nights. In which case they end up completing negotiations blind which raises their bar.

If 7 weren't involved in the mix I would be more concerned but what I've heard sounds very promising.

4. What are the intentions of Seven? We always hear they want State Of Origin, or is this just lip-service to make Nine nervous? Are they a genuine player for Origin and NRL matches or are they just sitting back enjoying Nine and Ten sweat bricks?

Both.

There was a meeting some 4 or 5 years ago when they did a review of the NRL rights. There were 4 key points that came up
* The importance of growing the Queensland market share
* Taking Origin to gain an automatic 3 ratings week win from 9
* The power that holding both Friday night AFL & NRL rights would have
* The power that holding both Sunday news lead-in AFL & NRL rights would have - this was the key one, with a double header in NRL targeting (NSW, QLD and one other market) and the AFL game targeting (VIC and and interstate match in WA or SA) - effective having a massive lead in across a minimum of 4 metros plus other regionals

The other factors to consider are Stoke's previous legal fights over the NRL rights and their bending over to Premier during the AFL rights.

5. Will the representative matches outside Origin be sold separately (All Stars, City vs Country, mid-year test, end of year test, Four Nations, 2013 World Cup) - or will they all be lumped together with origin under a representative package and basically be given away for free? With Origin being the rating equivalent of almost three extra grand finals, I feel it would be a mistake to just lump the other representative games with them because we are missing out on additional revenue if we don't itemise each of these and sell these matches on their own merits. Remember, AFL has none of these extra matches available to sell so we should ram home our advantage.

6. Will Toyota Cup be sold as a separate package, and if so how much do you think it will fetch?

The NRL is legally allowed to ask the networks to submit their bids showing the break down of specific element values. So if 9 values City vs Country as $X then it can put to the other networks to see if a great value can be gained.

Nothing is going to be given away for free. As to where these matches end up depends entirely on who gets the rest of the deal elements.

7. With Channel 9 now televising the Queensland Cup, what chance Nine wanting to fill the same timeslot in NSW with the NSW Cup? With the ARLC now overseeing all Rugby League, will the ARLC negotiate this on behalf on the NSWRL or will the NSWRL go at selling the rights alone (I don't have much confidence in the NSWRL doing any sort of decent job selling the rights!).

Very little.

Think of this way. Why is Channel 9 showing the Qld Cup? To boost the Brisbane metros for the NRL game.

What would happen if 9 did get the Sunday double header with 2nd Brisbane team which would have a similar effect?

I have very little faith in 9 maintaining the Queensland Cup coverage. Don't think for a minute that 9 are doing it for some noble reason.

8. The ARL Commission has very reputable board members with great business acumen. Will they have the balls to take the rights off Fox, or at least significantsly reduce the number of matches on Pay TV from 5 to about 1 or 2 (I would like to see Fox lose all matches, but a reduction from 5 matches to 1 or 2 will still result in a major hit to Fox subscribers in NSW & Queensland).

I only know a good deal about one of the commissioners so I can't really comment on their resolve as a whole but I imagine they would realise that they're under a lot of pressure to put up a strong first showing hence a substandard broadcast deal is out of the question.

Will they stick it to Premier if it comes to that? Well there's certainly the competition to do that if need be.

The thing to keep in mind here is that Premier Group and Channel 9, as much as they like to think it, do not own rugby league. They broadcast it at the decision of the NRL - now the ARLC. The ARLC are not beholden to their demands. F&LR mean nothing if the ARLC choose to go in an entirely different direction.

I've said it before but if it takes a two year 100% entirely F2A deal but with a smaller pay day then it may be worth it just to force Premier Group into a weaker negotiation platform later on.

Make no mistake - Foxtel only existing because of Fox Sports and Fox Sports is only sustainable because of subscriptions driven by Rugby League viewers. Every other statement to the contrary is just a bluff. They've only been able to get away with it previously because the NRL has been weaker than the networks. Right now though the roles are reversed and it's the NRL that has the upper hand.

9. Who on the ARLC or elsewhere (Gallop, LEK, consultants, etc) is doing the actual negotiationg for the ARLC/NRL? Would it be Gary Pemberton?

Well there's been quite a few different hands in this. There was a group of club CEO's on a subcommittee, several NRL board members, LEK, GMS. It'll mostly come down to Elliott, Grant, Smith, Ferrarin and co. I had found out about Elliott's commission appointment through LEK.

10. Would Wayne Perce's previous injvolvement with Fox add any significant advantage for the ARLC/NRL at the negotiating table?

Probably not.
 
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Ray Mosters

Juniors
Messages
237
Unfortunately, the tough talk of going all FTA for a year or two for a lower pay day is the NRL bluffing, big time. There are too many important stakeholders that would have to agree

With player wages going up, the RLPA in the mix, club grants with many clubs being against the wall, and no NRL money in the bank or assets to speak of... there is basically no way for the leagues economy to gracefully contract.

The players and clubs would have to sign off on the strategy, and I just can't think of a scenario where they would.

Say we have 20% contraction, lost purely due to the lack of not having a PayTV component.

Thats a 20% paycut for the players, who all believe they are in line for pay rises. The players could MAYBE be bought off for a year with a shortened season, but you just can't shorten the season. A free to air broadcaster needs content as their revenue comes from advertising, and a shortened season would mean a further drop in revenue beyond 20%. Plus clubs have stadium and sponsorship deals all keyed around how many times they turn out, it would be contractural chaos, as every agreement at every club would need to be reviewed. So thats straight out impossible.

On top of that a decrease in the grant would seriously impact the poorest clubs, putting them at great risk of collapse. And with no central help available to help manage the situations, losing a club becomes a real possibility. The clubs would never agree to those types of risks being taken.

On top of all that, you would need a free to air broadcaster that would be willing to hugely expand it's broadcast infrastructure, enough to produce 8 games a week, then lose most of that infrastructure a year later.

The football industry is just not that agile.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,511
Unfortunately, the tough talk of going all FTA for a year or two for a lower pay day is the NRL bluffing, big time. There are too many important stakeholders that would have to agree

With player wages going up, the RLPA in the mix, club grants with many clubs being against the wall, and no NRL money in the bank or assets to speak of... there is basically no way for the leagues economy to gracefully contract.

The players and clubs would have to sign off on the strategy, and I just can't think of a scenario where they would.

Say we have 20% contraction, lost purely due to the lack of not having a PayTV component.

Thats a 20% paycut for the players, who all believe they are in line for pay rises. The players could MAYBE be bought off for a year with a shortened season, but you just can't shorten the season. A free to air broadcaster needs content as their revenue comes from advertising, and a shortened season would mean a further drop in revenue beyond 20%. Plus clubs have stadium and sponsorship deals all keyed around how many times they turn out, it would be contractural chaos, as every agreement at every club would need to be reviewed. So thats straight out impossible.

On top of that a decrease in the grant would seriously impact the poorest clubs, putting them at great risk of collapse. And with no central help available to help manage the situations, losing a club becomes a real possibility. The clubs would never agree to those types of risks being taken.

On top of all that, you would need a free to air broadcaster that would be willing to hugely expand it's broadcast infrastructure, enough to produce 8 games a week, then lose most of that infrastructure a year later.

The football industry is just not that agile.

I have to disagree on all of that for the simple reason that a 2 year F2A exclusive deal would not necessarily mean a contraction from the last deal.

Remember - the private estimates for ad revenue for a 3 game F2A package are around the $140 million a season mark. That is a marked improvement on the previous deal of around $83 million a season combined.

Now more games on F2A the larger the ad revenue and the more the networks can afford to bid.

It is actually possible to set up a F2A package that generates over $200 million+ a season in ad revenue.

That would see a F2A exclusive deal in the range of $180 million+ minimum a year for 2 years ($360 million total). They could even reserve one game for an exclusive internet/mobile coverage.

So not as large as multi-platform deal (which would be $200-$250 million a year over 5 years), but it's a 2 year option that could hurt foxtel's bottom line.
 
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Canucks

Juniors
Messages
168
Television viewership has gone through the roof for the Warriors, but armchair fans may soon have to suffer games disrupted by regular commercial breaks.
The Sunday Star-Times understands Warriors ratings are up 84 per cent on this time last season, with NRL match viewing rising around 55 per cent.
Sky Television last night confirmed "a lot of interest in the NRL" and that numbers were up on last year, but didn't release any figures.
Warriors CEO Wayne Scurrah is also aware of a 2012 spike.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/6594207/NRL-plans-to-increase-ads-could-reap-90M-a-year
 

Tommax25

Bench
Messages
2,959
Slightly off topic but I don't like it that shows on the afl channel also play later on on the foxsports 1, 2, and 3 channels. I noticed something called "eddie mcguire live" on the afl channel, and a few hours later it was a replay of it on foxsports 1. They ave a f**king 24/7 channel dedicated to them ffs, keep that shit off the main channels, this is why they have their own channel. I'm sure there was a replay of an nrl game that they could have shown, or content from ANY other sport that doesn't get 24 hours of non-stop coverage. Pissed me off.
 

undertaker

Coach
Messages
10,817
Slightly off topic but I don't like it that shows on the afl channel also play later on on the foxsports 1, 2, and 3 channels. I noticed something called "eddie mcguire live" on the afl channel, and a few hours later it was a replay of it on foxsports 1. They ave a f**king 24/7 channel dedicated to them ffs, keep that shit off the main channels, this is why they have their own channel. I'm sure there was a replay of an nrl game that they could have shown, or content from ANY other sport that doesn't get 24 hours of non-stop coverage. Pissed me off.

I 100% agree with you, but this should come as absolutely no surprise to you after you think about the amount of money Fox forked out for the AFL rights. Before the Fox Footy channel was launched, other ppl and myself knew this was going to happen: Fox would really flog their AFL channel and personalities as much as they could. Unless the NRL gets its own channel at the next rights deal, you can expect this to be the status quo for the next 5 yrs.
 

CC_Roosters

First Grade
Messages
5,221
Doc, will the NRL be moved to Fox sports 1 when the a-league finishes? Its bloody ridiculous its not there as it is now
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
Slightly off topic but I don't like it that shows on the afl channel also play later on on the foxsports 1, 2, and 3 channels. I noticed something called "eddie mcguire live" on the afl channel, and a few hours later it was a replay of it on foxsports 1. They ave a f**king 24/7 channel dedicated to them ffs, keep that shit off the main channels, this is why they have their own channel. I'm sure there was a replay of an nrl game that they could have shown, or content from ANY other sport that doesn't get 24 hours of non-stop coverage. Pissed me off.

it's been rating so poorly Fox have become desperate to try and draw viewers to Fox Poofy by using their other channels

we know it's there

it's just garbage and Eddie can go f**k himself
 

dontito

Juniors
Messages
13
It's outrageous, they have so much content, so many options and all we get is afl 360 4 times in 3 hours on 2 different channels, WTF?
 

undertaker

Coach
Messages
10,817
it's been rating so poorly Fox have become desperate to try and draw viewers to Fox Poofy by using their other channels

we know it's there

it's just garbage and Eddie can go f**k himself

How poor have the ratings been?

And yes, Eddie Everywhere sucks but the person who I equally cannot stand everytime I see him is Gerard Whateley (he's also on the ABC's Sunday morning sports programme).
 
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