The Ultimate Islam Thread

Discussion in 'Four Corners' started by millersnose, Jul 26, 2016.

  1. age.s

    age.s Bench

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    Wtf that Irish incident can't be classified as terrorism even in the most generous reading. Old dude was either enraged in the moment or scared witless. Didn't seem to be a political motivation in any way.
     
  2. millersnose

    millersnose Post Whore

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    islam is an enemy of humanity

    Atheists face death in 13 countries, global discrimination: study


    By Robert Evans | GENEVA

    In 13 countries around the world, all of them Muslim, people who openly espouse atheism or reject the official state religion of Islam face execution under the law, according to a detailed study issued on Tuesday...

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9B900G20131210
     
  3. Pantherjim.

    Pantherjim. Coach

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    Pretty sure I've made it clear in many threads that I did not approve of the IRA's campaign when it involved attacks on innocent people i.e. bombs in urban areas.

    It is possible to be in favour of the cause of an organisation without endorsing their methods
     
  4. millersnose

    millersnose Post Whore

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    which, then, is your favorite IRA bombing then prozacjim?
     
  5. Pantherjim.

    Pantherjim. Coach

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    He was a known loyalist in the orange order driving back after participating in a march. Saw a bunch of Nationalists protesting against the marches (as they've done for generations) and thought that he might plow his car into them.

    Of course it was politically motivated.
     
  6. Pantherjim.

    Pantherjim. Coach

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    Maybe you should ask someone there in the halfway house to read what I posted and convey it to you in a language you can understand.
     
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  7. age.s

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    And yet he's now denying there was any political motivation. Not something that usually occurs wrt politically motivated violence.

    I think at worst he flew in to a fit of rage. Certainly wasn't the planned political violence that terrorism is currently used to describe.
     
  8. Pantherjim.

    Pantherjim. Coach

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    And being the member of a vile, sectarian organisation which is more bigoted than the KKK, I totally believe him.
     
  9. age.s

    age.s Bench

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    You sound a bit like alien here.
     
  10. Pantherjim.

    Pantherjim. Coach

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    If you want to have a discussion surrounding the substance of the arguments I've made without resorting to "you sound like "X"poster, be my guest Age.s. Otherwise count me out.
     
  11. age.s

    age.s Bench

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    "But he's a filthy loyalist" isn't a position of any more substance than "he's a filthy muslim" tbh.
     
  12. Pantherjim.

    Pantherjim. Coach

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    And in the States if a Member of the KKK, after marching in a similar event used his car to plow into a crowd of of Anti-KKK protestors you'd be of similar opinion of that guy's motives yeah?
     
  13. age.s

    age.s Bench

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    Yeah pretty much. I'd think he's an asshole. If he said it was just an accident I'd say he's quite probably an asshole.

    My position is he's either an asshole or a shit driver, not a terrorist.
     
  14. Pantherjim.

    Pantherjim. Coach

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    Well a jury of his peers have convicted him on the basis that his act was intentional, not an accident.

    Violence? Check.

    Motivation: An Orangeman who had just participated in the march, plowing into a Nationalist crowd who were protesting against the march. Therefore political? Check.

    We can agree to disagree on this age.s, but I'm calling it what I see it; a terrorist act.

    I'm sick and tired of the term "terrorism" only being used if it suits a political and/or religious agenda.

    Jihadists bomb a concert in Manchester: "Terrorists"

    White supremacist shoots up a predominantly African-American church in South Carolina: "Arsehole"

    IRA blow up a fish shop in Shankill Road: Terrorists

    Loyalist Paramilitaries shoot up a Catholic pub in Belfast: Arseholes.

    What the f*ck is the difference?
     
  15. age.s

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    You missed one part of that definition, "especially against citizens". Terrorism has the express aim of targeting non participants with violence in a place they would least expect it. I'd argue there needs to be some degree of planning involved too. This was definitely a shitty act but he was targeting people he saw as combatants.

    The problem with expanding the term to include all manner of violent shit done with a vaguely political link is that it dilutes the meaning of the term. The only reason to do that is if you want to obfuscate its meaning, removing some of the societal weight it bears.

    Dylann Roof fits the description of terrorist decently enough but hate crime is the going term used to describe violence on the basis of race/gender/sexuality. Frankly I think it better describes his motivation but you could make the argument either way. Not sure of the Catholic pub incident you're referencing but that certainly sounds like terrorism. The troubles were an excellent blueprint for the modern Islamist to study.
     
  16. Pantherjim.

    Pantherjim. Coach

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    So you're saying that if the intended victims of the act are combatants themselves then it doesn't constitute a terrorist act?

    How so?

    In the lead up to the Shankill Road bombing, the Belfast Brigade of the IRA had deemed that Frizzell's Fish Shop was a military target as the UDA's top brass including Johnny Adair frequently met in their HQ directly above the shop. Adair was in Command of the UDA's West Belfast Brigade which was notorious for sectarian attacks on Irish Catholics in Belfast. The IRA decided to go into action when one of their scouts spotted Adair entering the building on the morning of the bombing. The Plan was for the IRA to enter the shop, force the shop's customers out at gunpoint and plant the bomb which was designed to send the blast upwards and had an 11 second fuse set enabling them to evacuate the building of innocents, but not enough time for the UDA leaders to get away. Unfortunately it didn't pan out that way, the bomb detonated prematurely killing 8 innocent people and injuring 57 others. Unbeknown to the IRA, the UDA meeting had finished early and it's leaders, including Adair had left hours before they decided to go into action.

    So the intended targets were Adair and the UDA leadership (Combatants) and from all accounts it would seem that if everything went according to plan the IRA were planning to evacuate the shop of anyone who wasn't UDA, does this make the Shankill Road Bombing any less of a terrorist attack?


    And to a certain extent I agree, but I hardly think that the motivation for a guy deliberately plowing his car into a bunch of people protesting against the Orange Order marches, when he is a member of the OO, and has participated in the march himself is "vague" at all

    Nor do I think the notion that he saw these people as "combatants" somehow redefines this as "just a shitty act". For me it's almost as if you're implying that these people can't even be categorised as victims of crime because as protestors, even non-violent protestors, they're participants?
     
  17. millersnose

    millersnose Post Whore

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    amazingly i am going to side with prozacjim on this

    in the context of the event attacked and the identity and membership of the attacker it is a terrorist attack pure and simple
     
  18. age.s

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    Because that's the meaning of the term. It's not just a blanket term to describe political violence. The deliberate targeting of civilians is part and parcel of it. I think the targets being soldiers, politicians or political activists with whom you've been fighting all day does mean it shouldn't fall under the same umbrella.

    That only matters if you want to leverage some of the stigma we have for terrorism for your own particular cause.

    As for the Shankill Road bombing I'd say it doesn't fall into the category of terrorism, but it's close. It was certainly a reckless act that showed callous disregard for civilian life, but civilians were not the target.

    Of course they should be categorised as victims. They deserved to be able to peacefully protest without being subjected to physical harm like anyone else. I'm saying the intentions of the perpetrator matter when defining something as terrorism.

    Should every Antifa/Reclaim fistfight be classed as terrorism?

    For example I'd say the crazy lady who randomly assaulted Muslims in Ultimo a few weeks back is much closer to the definition.
     
  19. Pantherjim.

    Pantherjim. Coach

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    Well, at least you're consistent with your viewpoint I'll give you that.

    But unfortunately I just can't agree. Regardless of whether the victims weren't seen as intended targets, or whether they were actively protesting against the cause of the other side, to me terrorism is still terrorism.

    I'm sure the families of the victims of the Shankill Road bombings aren't comforted by the fact that the IRA never intended their loved ones to be targets, and by the same token I'm also certain that they don't regard Thomas Begley and Sean Kelly any less as Terrorists for having carried the bomb into Frizzels.

    Even as a Republican/Nationalist sympathiser, I can't really blame them either.
     
  20. Collateral

    Collateral Moderator Staff Member

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    How could anyone in their right mind not deem this a terrorist attack?
     

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