The Ultimate Islam Thread

Discussion in 'Four Corners' started by millersnose, Jul 26, 2016.

  1. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    Muslims don't believe in the Virgin Birth? That must be news to them. In the Surah named after Mary, Surah 19, from verse 17 onwards we read the exact same story of an angel announcing to Mary that God will give her a son that will be a blessing to the world even though she is a virgin.

    Ignorance and false accusations irk me from time to time.

    I don't believe any interpretation of Islam, I'm Christian. I do believe and have stated here that Islam contradicts itself and therefore wildly different practices eg. peacefulness/jihad are up for grabs.

    All Muslims want to emulate Muhammad because he is the best of men. Some Muslims use Muhammad's marriage to Aisha as backing for their own desire to marry a young girl.

    At least represent my views correctly.
     
  2. Snoop

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    Two things:

    1. Does every hadith concerning this topic contain Ibn Hisham in the chain or transmission?
    2. I am approaching this as a Sunni Muslim would. I use the best Sunni sources and use ahadith that are labelled sahih. You call them weak but I've not found any expert in hadith that has called them weak.

    A scenario for you. A man comes up and asks me how many sheep I have. I say 21. He says Joe from down that road said he has 10 more than me and he has 40 so I must have 30. I say Joe has said before that he has 10-20 sheep more than me but nevertheless I know how many sheep I have, I have 21. He walks away believing I have 30. Is that rational?

    Yes, there is a contradiction in the age difference between Aisha and her sister. Putting it at 19 as one hadith reports makes sense when compared to other hadith. Putting it at 10 makes it contradict other hadith. Of course if contradicting those other hadith is what you want to do I can see why you choose one over the other.

    No it doesn't and I use Islamic sources.

    That's what you do. I believe the source that doesn't contradict other trusted sources.

    If we are going to analyse hadith you're going to have to post them. I've posted all of mine before.

    Because one of the main doctrines of the Reformation was scripture alone and as I've clearly stated Matthew says Mary and Joseph consummated the marriage and Mark says they had at least 6 other children.

    I don't consider your evidence strong. You haven't even posted links to the ahadith you are using.

    Your claim was that it was a dogmatic belief. It was only a dogmatic belief in the 5th century. Something doesn't become a dogmatic belief unless it has been argued for previously so yes there are church fathers in the 4th century that argued for this doctrine. It is unclear whether Irenaeus believed in it. You have to take Jerome's word for it. Jerome of course was arguing for it so he did have a certain bias.

    The other problem is that not all church fathers had access to all of what we now call the NT. Irenaeus most probably had access to John's Gospel (as a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John) but maybe he didn't have Matthew or Mark. If he didn't have Matthew or Mark then perhaps he may have thought Mary to be a perpetual virgin simply because he had no evidence to the contrary. Issues like this is why Protestants admire and read the church Fathers but we don't hold them as infallible when it comes to church doctrine. Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy rely on tradition just as much as the Bible so that is something we differ on.
     
  3. 2_Smoking_Guns

    2_Smoking_Guns First Grade

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    I stand corrected. I made the assumption that as Muslims considered Jesus to be a prophet like Mohammed thet thought of him as a man, and that is incorrect.
     
  4. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    Well I think they do consider Jesus to be only a man and only a prophet but they also believe in the virgin birth and that Jesus was sinless. Don't ask me how Muhammad who was according to the Quran not sinless and performed no miracles could be a greater prophet than Jesus who was according to Islam sinless and performed many miracles.
     
  5. Game_Breaker

    Game_Breaker First Grade

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    1. The point was to highlight the unreliability of your source.

    2. Here is a breakdown of why Sahih Bukharir and Sahih Muslim aren’t always right:

    https://asimiqbal2nd.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/contradictions.pdf

    They accept contradictory hadith.


    A better analogy is to say Mr Smith told me that Mr Jones told him that Mr Jackson told him that Mrs Butler told him etc. (keep that up for a couple of centuries)



    Umm.. the hadith is from Bukhari and it states:


    Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar was revealed

    The key word being used was girl and not toddler and it was in relation to a specific verse of a specific chapter (so she was old enough to remember)

    We also know this was an early Meccan chapter, so you can’t claim it was revealed in the last couple of years before Muhammad migrated to Medina – he still had 50 Meccan chapters after Al-Qamar




    Here is another Bukhari hadith for you analyse


    Ayesha said: “I have not known my parents except as believers. No day would pass without the messenger of God coming to us day and evening, then when the Muslims were afflicted Abu Bakr emigrated to Abyssinia.” - Sahih Bukhari 3905


    Key thing – she remembers Muhammad would visit her parents and she remembers her had migrating to Abyssinia (modern day Ethiopia – he never actually settled)

    We know the migration to 'Abyssinia' was in 2 phases 613/615AD and 615-616AD (according to you that would make Ayesha 0-3 years old at the time – and I’m being generous with the upper limit of 3)


    So now you have a few options

    A. Claim the hadith is false even though you’ve been praising the authenticity of Bukhari

    B. Claim Ayesha has a miraculous memory and can remember details as toddler

    C. Claim she didn’t mean what she said

    What would it be?


    I thought you said you looked into the hadiths that contradict your claim so I didn’t bother. I guess that’s proof the Islamophobic website you’re copying and pasting from didn’t cover the above

    So Christians are allowed to change dogmas but Muslims aren’t allowed to analyse contradictory historical data


    See above


    A whole lot of maybes and uncertainties in there - I don't know why.

    Jerome also said Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr believed in the ever-Virgin theory.
     
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  6. Mr Spock!

    Mr Spock! Coach

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    Lol, Snoop trying to pass himself off as an expert on Islam because he reads Christian apologetic sites.

    Maybe he should spend more time understanding his own religion such as why God commanded gays to be put to death.

    He's incredibly embarrassed by that.

    How on Earth he can pass himself off as an expert on Islam when he doesn't even understand the books in his own bible is beyond me.
     
  7. Snoop

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    You haven't shown that the hadith concerning the age of Aisha are contradictory. Yes, in collections of 1000's of hadiths there are some contradictions but does that make the whole collection unreliable?

    Two things:

    1. The key word, Jariyah means a little playful girl. I'm not sure if you're a parent but girls (and boys) are playful at least by the age of 3.
    2. There is no certainty of Aisha's age from this hadith nor is there any certainty of the exact year when this particular ayah was revealed. All that we know was that it was revealed in Mecca. Nothing conclusive can be drawn from this hadith.

    D. Abu Bakr didn't attempt to migrate until 1617AD making Aisha 4 at the time.

    I can't know if I've looked into the ahadith you are relying on if you don't actually say which ahadith you are relying on.

    It's a question of sources. The perpetual virginity of Mary is not supported by the best Christian sources i.e the Bible. If you can provide better sources for the age of Aisha then show them. Or if you can reasonably discredit the ahadith found in Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Dawood go for it. So far I don't think you have. You have claimed that the existence of ibn Hisham in any isnad makes the hadith unreliable which might only be true of any hadith narrated in his old age only and we have no idea when he passed on any particular hadith. Additionally not all ahadith concerning Aisha's age contain ibn Hisham in the isnad. You've also tried to use other dates and ages to determine Aisha's age yet those other dates and ages are either unknown or disputed.

    And Matthew and Mark says she's not. As much as I appreciate the church fathers they are not inspired.
     
  8. Game_Breaker

    Game_Breaker First Grade

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    The onus is on you to prove your claim since you're the one making the claim - I'm merely pointing to other sources that cast doubt on the authenticity of your claim.

    I'm approaching this like a historian
    I've produced hadiths showing Aisha recalling events with great detail - events that cannot be recalled from someone as young as you claim her to be at the time

    I've also not limited my self to hadiths - I've shown histroical accounts showing a 10 year age gap with her sister
    Tabari (the Islamic historian) has stated that all of Abu Bakr's children were born before Islam (i.e. 610 AD) - I incorrectly labelled this a hadith previously

    That doesn't mean every hadith is false, it just means there's a giant question mark on the authenticity of a source you're claiming is authentic

    Those contradictions are just the tip of the ice berg
    and if I'm approaching this like a historian then it means I don't just rely on Sahih Bukhari and Muslim - I look at other sources too.

    I'd be a pretty bad historian if I say "well since X says so and so it must be true, never mind all other other contradictory things X says on other topics and never mind all the other historical accounts that contradict X's claim"

    There's a reason why non-Sunni Muslims reject Bukhari


    1. Yeah, nah - 3 year olds aren't going to remember when specific verses of a holy book is revealed. I barely have any memories at 4, let alone remembering when specific holy texts were revealed
    2. There is enough to know that it wasn't a late Meccan chapter - it's the 37th chapter (chronologically) - so still 49 more Meccan chapters to be revealed after this


    Because I'm generous I'll give you 4
    Still doesn't explain how a 4 yr old can give such an account - she went into a lot of detail
    Remembering that Muhammad visited her parents every day?
    Remembering the specific details of her dad's persecution in Mecca?

    Either she was a miracle child or older at the time
    The other historical accounts I've produced suggest older.

    You keep going with the miracle toddler theory

    The people quoting Ibn Hashim are Iraqis - and Ibn Hashim didn't move to Iraq until he was an old man
    Point is Bukarii isn't the strong source you claim he is if he's accepting that

    The Catholic Church interpreted it differently though
    For over a millennium a certain dogma was believed - then it was challenged

    Here - we're not even debating religious dogma, we're discussing a history. Yet your point that because it wasn't even challenged earlier renders the challenge irrelevant is hypocritical.
     
  9. Snoop

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    I have given the evidence for my assertion from the major hadith collections. None of these collections contain contradictory data concerning Aisha's age when married and when the marriage was consummated. The ahadith that specifically mention her age are:

    From Sahih Bukhari:
    From Sahih Muslim:
    From Sunan Abi Dawud:
    From Sunan an-Nasa'i:
    Pointing out that there are other ahadith that contradict each other doesn't invalidate the above ahadith. In fact, if anything, the fact that Bukhari included right next to each other hadith that contradicted each other proves that his sole governing principle was the strength of the isnad. It might well be that some of the contradictions in Bukhari could be explained by either a change in practice by Muhammad or that Muhammad simply got things wrong, like the number of wives Solomon had.

    You also try to cast doubt on the ahadith by casting doubt of ibn Hisham and the ahadith that were transmitted in Iraq. This is based on a few opinions that ibn Hisham's mental ability while in Iraq was insufficient to accurately transmit ahadith. But then you have people who say ibn Hisham remembered just fine too. But ultimately not all the ahadith concerning Aisha's age need have ibn Hisham in the isnad.

    So all in all I've presented very early and reliable data that you have not been able to invalidate. Your next step was to provide contrary data from different sources based on different dates and time periods which I'll address below.

    The detail is not great. Muhammad often visited is not a recollection that contains great detail. I can tell you who visited my family and who my family visited when I was four. I can tell you what game I played at preschool and where I rode my bike. I can tell you about the time I fell into an empty pool and when I fell off a skateboard.

    I can also tell you my address when I was four. Did I remember it all by myself? No. My parents helped me remember it. Is there any reason why we shouldn't assume that Abu Bakr or Muhammad himself repeated to Aisha that a particular revelation occurred while she was still a little girl in Mecca?

    And other's have noted that the correct interpretation of Tabari is that he married his wives before Islam. This would make sense since Tabari also says this:

    "'A'ishah states: We came to Medina and Abu Bakr took up quarters in al-Sunk among the Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. The Messenger of God came to our house and men and women of the Ansar gathered around him. My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. Jumaymah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door, she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought [in] while the Messenger of God was sitting on a bed in our house . [My mother] made me sit on his lap and said, "These are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!" Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."

    http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/The History Of Tabari/Tabari_Volume_09.pdf and page 1770

    No the giant question mark is on the person you are relying on to tell you the truth about what Tabari actually said. Since once again you give no sources we are at an impasse.

    Historians like the best sources. I've sourced ahadith from 4 of the 6 most respected hadith collections. You've used Tabari, so have I. He's got four more quotes too saying Aisha was nine when Muhammad had penetrative sex with her.

    But then as a good historian you see that from multiple different sources you are seeing a consistent story so you assume it true unless given greater evidence that it is not. We have multiple ahadith with different isnads in different hadith collections all saying that same thing.

    You do know that ayah that sit side by side in a Surah could have been revealed days, months even years apart and that ayah from a 'later' Surah could be revealed prior to ayah from an 'earlier' Surah. It's not strictly chronological within a Surah.

    I know my home address from when I was three because my parents told me. No miracle required there. Nor do you have to be generous and grant me that she was 4. You simply assumed that Abu Bakr participated in one of the mass migrations to Ethiopia which was not true.

    Old people can still remember things and you can remove all the ahadith which rely on an isnad involving ibn Hisham and there are still plenty of ahadith that affirm Aisha was nine when Muhammad had sex with her.

    And the point is what is the best source. Even setting aside inspiration Matthew and Mark beat Jerome hands down from purely a historical point of view. In a similar way I contend that the Islamic sources used to establish Aisha's age as nine when the marriage was consummated are better than those that argue otherwise. In fact there are no sources until the 1900s that actually argue Aisha wasn't nine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  10. Snoop

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    I'm not sure if it's because rape gangs trafficking 1000s of kids is just par for the course these days in Britain but I'm surprised this story has not been posted yet.

    http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...d/news-story/211aaea49dc0bc183dd2fdfb2409d837

    Horrors of Britain’s ‘worst ever’ grooming scandal revealed with up to 1000 kids drugged and abused
    THE taxidriver first targeted Lucy in 1997 before she gave birth to his child when she was just 14. He then set her home on fire, and killed her family, according to reports.

    Erica Doyle Higgins
    The SunMARCH 12, 201810:54AM
    [​IMG]
    Lucy Lowe, 16, was killed in 2000 along with her mum and sister 'after her abuser set fire to their house'.Source:Supplied

    THE horrors of Britain’s “worst ever” child grooming scandal have been revealed after up to 1000 kids were drugged and abused in a British town, it has been reported.

    Sex gangs in Telford, Shropshire, “targeted and murdered” girls as young as 11 in an abuse scandal set to be even bigger than Rochdale, it is claimed.

    Among the victims were Lucy Lowe, 16, who died alongside her mum and sister after her abuser Azhar Ali Mehmood, 26, set fire to their house, according to the Mirror.

    The taxidriver reportedly first targeted Lucy in 1997 before she gave birth to his child when she was just 14.

    He was jailed for killing the teen, along with her mum Eileen and her sister Sarah, 17 — but was never arrested or charged over sex abuse.

    Another victim, who was drugged and gang-raped, said Lucy’s killing was a warning to others who might speak out.

    [​IMG]
    Mubarek Ali, 34, was one of seven men jailed after a 2013 police operation.Source:Supplied

    The schoolgirl, who remains anonymous, said she was driven to attempt suicide.

    She told the Mirror: “I was scared my family would die like Lucy’s — I thought they’d only be safe if I killed myself.”

    In 2002 another schoolgirl — Becky Watson, 13 — was killed in an unexplained car accident in the Shropshire town.

    Despite the smash being recorded at the time as a “prank” gone wrong, it later emerged she had reportedly been abused by an Asian grooming gang since she was 11.

    [​IMG]
    Ahdel Ali, 27, was jailed for abusing and trafficking kids in Telford.Source:Supplied

    In tragic diary entries she is said to have told of how she was forced to “sleep around”.

    Her mum said she went to cops but claimed her daughter was treated “like a criminal”.

    Becky’s pal Vicky Round is also reported to have been abused by the same group of men — who got her hooked on crack at the age of 12 and heroin by 14.

    She tragically died at the age of 20 as a result of drugs and her family claim “the people who made her life hell still walk the streets”.

    Some of those who were finally brought to justice include seven men jailed in 2013 following Operation Chalice, a police probe into child prostitution in the Telford area.

    Mubarek Ali, 34, and his brother Ahdel Ali, 27, were both jailed for sexually abusing, trafficking, and prostituting teens.

    The paper alleges that some young girls were “lured from their families to be drugged, beaten and raped” in an epidemic that victims have said is ongoing.

    It is also claimed that social workers knew of the abuse in the 1990s but the police took a decade to launch an investigation, council staff viewed victims as “prostitutes”, and authorities failed to keep details of abusers from Asian communities for fear of “racism”.

    It’s alleged that three people were murdered and two others died in tragedies linked to the scandal.

    Tory MP for Telford Lucy Allan demanded a public inquiry and said the findings were “extremely serious and shocking”.

    [​IMG]
    Tory MP for Telford Lucy Allan demanded a public inquiry into the scandal.Source:Supplied

    One girl, who was groomed and abused after her phone number was sold to paedophiles, told the paper: “I hated what was happening and my abusers made my skin crawl but I was told that if I said a word to anyone they’d come for my little sisters and tell my mum I was a prostitute.

    “Night after night, I was forced to have sex with multiple men in disgusting takeaways and filthy houses.

    “I must have been getting the morning after pill from a local clinic at least twice a week but no one asked any questions.”

    The teen also said the “worst moment” came after her 16th birthday when she was “drugged and gang raped” by five men, and days later the ringleader came to her house and said he’d burn it down if she told anyone.

    A police investigation called Operation Chalice identified more than 100 potential victims abused between 2007 and 2009.

    The probe by the paper found two predatory paedophiles began targeting girls from a local children’s home in 1981.

    One report commissioned by local Telford and Wrekin Council in 2013 admitted that from the late-1990s professionals “had concerns about the nature of some of the child sexual abuse cases presented to them”.

    But it blamed the failure to act on “understanding and learning at that time and existing procedures”.

    A spokesman for Telford and Wrekin Council told the paper that their approach to child sexual exploitation is now “very different from 10-20 years ago”.

    They said they have “learned lessons” and are constantly on the lookout for indicators of child sex abuse so they can pass information to police.

    Martin Evans, Assistant Chief Constable for West Mercia Police, told the Sunday Mirror that they’re boosting police numbers to tackle the “horrific offences is their number one priority ... whether that offending took place today, yesterday or decades ago”.
     
  11. 2_Smoking_Guns

    2_Smoking_Guns First Grade

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    I'm surprised too, but why is it in a thread about Islam?
     
  12. Game_Breaker

    Game_Breaker First Grade

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    Really? when?

    Are they using the same chain of narrators?
    and I've pointed to their hadiths that contain contradictory data


    LOL

    Your entire argument rests on the validity of your source. YOU are arguing for its complete validity, I'm not saying they're invalid - just you have to take it with a grain of salt
    If your own is shown to be contradictory in other areas then it means they're NOT 100% authentic, as you claim

    That doesn't mean its complete BS - it just means your argument that if its in Bukhari and Muslim then it must be true is nonsense

    All you've shown is your claim is complete conjecture


    He actually had more than one criteria

    and he even failed in the isnad with a lot of his hadiths - which is precisely why other sect hadith experts have rejected the above hadiths - they don't trust the narrators

    They rejected them over 1000 years ago too

    and the other 35 pages I posted?
    Did you read those as well

    That means there's enough doubt to question his reliability - that's my point
    Not only him but Muhammad ibn Amr was another narrator who was considered weak
    Abu Huraira was another questionable source (was only a Muslim a few years before Muhammad died) and he literally narrated thousands of hadiths

    From questionable narrators

    I guess you have to take a leap of faith believe in the word of a 3/4 year old to believe that
    as well as rejecting the 10 yr age gap between Aisha and her sister


    Remembering someone visiting your house everyday is very detailed
    not to mention the detailed account of her dad's persecution

    At no point did she say "my father told me" there's no room for assumptions here
    If that were to case then it needed to be included in the hadith - that's what they're based on. If you're saying there's a missing narrator then it is not sahih
    She explicitly refers to her memory when narrating

    But hey, if you think there's a weakness in your source then that's just another nail in the coffin for Bukhari


    and he uses an 'unnamed' narrator and other weak narrators to back it up
    Well I'm convinced

    I prefer to focus on his independent work where he clearly states that Aisha was born before 610
    That puts further doubt to your claim and your "100% authentic hadiths

    But you stick to those 'unnamed narrators'

    SUNY Press Translation 1993 - A whole team of academics an translators worked on that book (volume 11 to be exact)
    Moiz Amjad in a 1979 translation as well

    Who's your source - some guy off the internet?

    You've used hadith - and your argument is "its true because they say its true"

    That's pretty weak. That's not how you look at it from a historical POV
    I've used hadiths as well historical accounts from different people to show there is doubt to your claim
    I've pointed to Islamic scholars who've rejected your hadiths from over a thousand years ago


    That have been rejected by other sects for over a thousand of years


    No, but for a little girl to remember a specific verse she will need to be a specific age

    Your theory of 4 is ludicrous, even 6 is stretching it and the verse wasn't revealed that late

    and yet Aisha never mentioned someone told her
    You're simply making an assumption


    and there are still other narrators which I have mentioned who also have questions on their credibility

    those questioned weren't asked recently, but over a thousand years ago as I've already stated


    Now you're just making stuff up
    Enough doubt existed that allowed many to outright reject the hadiths in the early Islamic period
     
  13. Snoop

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    Why is Catholic kiddie fiddler news articles in a thread about ridiculing religion?
     
  14. 2_Smoking_Guns

    2_Smoking_Guns First Grade

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    Because the perpetrators are Catholic priests, yet the article you posted makes no mention of any religion let alone Islam or Muslims. So why have you posted it here?
     
  15. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    Because fear has corroded the press's ability to speak plainly about the effects of belief on behaviour. ie Islam devalues a) non-believers and b) women. Mix serious belief, sexual repression and an unwillingness to seriously police the issue and this is what you can expect.
     
  16. 2_Smoking_Guns

    2_Smoking_Guns First Grade

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    So it's just your assumption that the perpetrators are Muslims?
     
  17. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    That is my assumption yes. At the very least, they are likely to be "lapsed" Muslims if there is such a thing. Unfortunately the article doesn't inform me one way or the other, which is my point.

    Be honest - if you were forced to wager for your life on guessing the religious upbringing of guys from "South Asia" with names like Mubarek Ali, what would you say?

    Anyway, I looked it up. The very first line of the wikipedia article on Operation Chalice:

    The Telford child sex abuse ring consisted of a group of British South Asian Muslim men[1][2][3]grooming local children for sex between 2007 and 2009 in Telford in the English county of Shropshire.

    So my point stands, the press are taking it upon themselves to self-censor, out of fear, and I think it's a bad thing.
     
  18. Game_Breaker

    Game_Breaker First Grade

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    If these guys were sheiks you might have a point

    These guys are deranged maniacs who happen to be Muslim
    The press doesn’t report on the religion/beliefs of every criminal in every article, unless it’s relevant

    But how would that look like?

    Joe Smith (who happens to be Christian) was sentenced to life for his rape crimes

    Adam Jones (who is an atheist) was caught on CCTV in an armed hold up at a service station

    Mohammed Khan (who is Muslim) was sentenced to 2 years in prison for assaulting his neighbour
     
  19. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    I think that's a fair enough point in general, but I contend that in this case it actually is relevant. Just like it's relevant to point out that Catholic child rapists are Catholic, Christian abortion clinic bombers and the KKK are Christian, Buddhist and Muslim antagonists in Myanmar belong to their respective tribes, etc.

    Do I really have to make the usual disclaimers about most Muslims around the world being perfectly excellent human beings?

    Beliefs breed behaviours, and it's no accident that the ringleaders of all of these British sex rings belong to a particular faith and/or come from a part of the world where that faith is all-powerful at every level of society, because that faith teaches that unbelievers and women are worth less in the eyes of Allah.

    A sociopathic rapist doesn't need much more justification for his actions than the wasp nest that passes for his brain but if you inculcate the above teachings into the mix and wrap it up with sexual repression and then transplant it to a more liberal society, the results are hardly surprising.

    We have to be able to look at this stuff squarely and name it. That's the only way to find out if the pattern we see is incorrect. The Catholic church argues their teachings on abstinence for clergy is not to blame for their world wide child rape crisis. The discussion is open and debatable but the clock is ticking on when they will repeal it to try to stay relevant to an increasingly sceptical West.
     
  20. Snoop

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    The names of the men convicted in Telford are:

    Ahdel Ali
    Mubarek Ali
    Mohammed Islam Choudhrey
    Mohammed Ali Sultan
    Mohammed Younis
    Mahroof Khan
    Tanveer Ahmed

    I'm guessing Mormons, Dutch Reformed or Shinto.
     

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