The Ultimate Islam Thread

Discussion in 'Four Corners' started by millersnose, Jul 26, 2016.

  1. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    Much earlier on in this thread so I repeated them right beneath the part you quoted.

    No

    But not with respect to Aisha's age when married and when the marriage was consummated.

    My argument doesn't rely on the validity of the entirety of Bukhari or Muslim. It relies on the reliability of the particular ahadith within Bukhari, Muslim, Abi Dawud and an-Nasa'i. You haven't shown how these ahadith are unreliable and they certainly are not contradicted by other ahadith found within them.

    Shias don't trust Aisha. This is not shocking news.

    Yep. 16 contradictions in all and none of them to do with Aisha's age.

    So long as you ignore two things:
    1. One of the main problems some people had with him was that he did not give the full isnad
    2. Far more people consider him very reliable than those who don't

    Nope. Hisham is not questionable and even if we leave him out the others aren't

    I reject the 10 year gap because there are contradictions in early Islamic sources on the age gap. Some say 10, some say 10 or so and some say 19. The only differences concerning Aisha's age when married is some say 6 and some say 7 but all say 9 when the marriage was consummated including Tabari.

    And no, Remembering someone visiting everyday is not detailed. Furthermore, such a regular occurrence lends itself to be memorised. Muhammad practically became part of daily life if he was there everyday. As for persecution I can tell you that when I was 3 my Dad was treated unfairly at work by someone who thought they deserved a promotion over him. I can name names. How do I know? I was only three. Mum told me later on.

    This assumption is not required but it is a reasonable assumption. Have your parents never told you about their life or about things you did as a family when you were young. Mine did.

    Again, if Muhammad visited every day then it would be likely that a 4 year old would remember this.

    Hold on. Tabari is relying on other sources in all of his books. You're just deciding that four times he was wrong in one set of volumes and one other time he is right and has been correctly translated. I thought you were looking at this like a historian.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibril_Haddad the guy who wrote a small essay responding to Moiz Amjad, one of the guys you are relying on. As far as I can tell Moiz Amjad has not responded.

    BTW SUNY Press has not translated the particular work of al-Tabari that contains the contested sentence.

    The ahadith I use are from multiple sources. Historians love it when multiple sources say the same thing. Every historian you have used also repeats that Aisha was 6 and 9 when married and plundered. And every age difference and time that you use is in doubt because there are contradictory times from other sources and sometimes even within the same source.

    For example. Aisha, according to various Islamic historians, is somewhere from 10-19 years younger than her sister. Which should be pick? Well Islamic historians also tell us that Aisha was 9 in 1A.H which would make her 19 years younger. So let's go with that.

    Shias reject Aisha. It's not because she is inherently unreliable. They don't like her!

    We don't know when the verse was revealed. There is conflicting data on that.

    A rather reasonable assumption since it involves family and religion, two very common talking points for someone born of Abu Bakr and married to Muhammad to talk about. Like I said I know plenty of things that happened when I was three because I've been told.
     
  2. Game_Breaker

    Game_Breaker First Grade

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    So 'Urwa ibn al-Zubayr and Hisham bin 'Urwa only appear once from all the isnad?


    Umm really?
    But you said this early on in the discussion

    That's a good point
    The don't consider her reliable and view her characteristics an unfavourable- another question mark on your source

    Considering she raised an army against Ali
    Admitted to being jealous to Khadija
    Adulturay accusations against her
    Hypocrisy on Uthmans death
    Jealousy general actions towards Muhammads other wives

    They might have a point

    Thanks for highlighting that


    Just the tip of the iceberg

    and you just ignored his unreliability in his old age


    The fact that early sources question him and call him unreliable in old age makes him questionable


    lol

    You're using my argument now
    Because contradictions exist - you reject the source

    If its good enough for to use, then it invalidates your whole argument

    That's pretty hilarious

    Oh geez

    The fact that your mum told you means you didn't remember it on your own
    Aisha's narration explicitly states "she remembers" and makes ZERO mention of the story being transmitted to her

    If it was transmitted to her, then that is one extra narrator that isn't mentioned rendering the isnad broken and invalid. Bukhari rejects ALL hadiths with a broken chain of narration

    The fact he accepted this means Aisha is narrating from memory and not because of an unnamed source as you claim

    And if I would ever tell a story about me as a toddler I would never start it by saying "I remember ..."


    I have fragments of memories when I was 4 yrs old, not memories of everyday life
    That's called childhood amnesia
    Adults don't remember details from when they're a toddler

    I didn't decide he was wrong
    Others decided his chain was weak

    as for his volumes regarding Abu Bakr's biography - that's his own independent work. I'm not saying his right - just highlighting the doubt that exists


    So your source is a guy who has some skin in the game and doesn't want to see his life work being contradicted with other sources

    I have 2 separate translations who are not as bias
    SUNY did translate al-Tabari - I read it myself. I suggest you do some research before repeating the lies from whatever Islamophobic site you visit


    From a historian pov, a chain of narrations isn't multiple sources if the head of the narration is the same person - that's one source

    Multiple sources would be is many people from the time witnessed and said the same thing

    And given this source and the narrators that followed haven't been accepted by all sects - it remains doubtful


    That's my argument
    By using it again it pretty much contradicts your whole claim

    Thanks, I'll let you use it



    They've always maintained she in unreliable and they present pretty convincing evidence



    We can rule out late Meccan verse considering the chapters revealed after that


    and yet Aisha never revealed she was told
    so it's ether a broken chain of narrators or she is actually remembering from an older age
    You can't have both
     
  3. Snoop

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    No. The point is that they don't appear in all the isnad.

    I do point to their general acceptance of being very accurate. Never said they were infallible.

    So you're Shia? I thought you were Sunni?

    These are the Shia allegations against Aisha. Are they true? Even if they are are they sufficient reasons to say Aisha always lies. It would perhaps be a good reason to reject any narration from Aisha that paints Khadija or Ali in a bad light but why reject a narration about her marriage?

    Well the guy promised to update it and I couldn't find an update version with heaps more contradictions. More importantly though there are no contradictions concerning Aisha's age. 6 and 9 is constant within all four hadith collections I have referenced.

    The alleged unreliability which was based more on his laziness in not giving the full isnad.

    Only if those sources have a credible reason right. Simply being questioned doesn't make you questionable.

    This is not your argument. Your argument is that since there are 16 contradictions in Bukhari we can't trust Bukhari. My argument is that because there are contradictions specifically concerning the age difference between Aisha and her sister we have to either say it is an unreliable data point or figure out which is the more likely number. 10 is less likely since it results in Aisha being 18 when the marriage was consummated yet plenty of sources state that she was 9 when that happened and 18 when Muhammad died and there are no other ages given for these life events.

    Yes. But the things she specifically remembers herself is the everyday event of Muhammad visiting her house. No need for any parental help to recollect such a common occurrence.

    Others have also decided his chain is strong.

    But it's no more his independent work that anything else Tabari wrote about events that happened well before his birth.

    Your guy has skin in the game since he wants to prove Muhammad didn't have sex with a 9 year old.

    Moiz Amjad is biased.

    My apologies. I assumed that because of the different names given to his volume of work that they were different. Which volume is the reference in btw?

    That's not right. The multiple sources confirms what the head of the narration said. Yes there is one narrator but multiple people confirming that one narrator. That's when historians can be confident that the narrator said what the multiple sources all attest to.

    Again, the reason why Shias do not accept narrations from Aisha needs to be scrutinised.

    No it's not. There is not one source that says Aisha and Muhammad didn't get married when she was 6 or 7 and that the marriage wasn't consummated when she was 9. Not one source contradicts this. No source says she was 14 or 18.

    Of course they've always maintained she is unreliable. They've always hated her. Could that be part of the reason for trying to discredit her?

    Again, verses with in a chapter were not necessarily revealed chronologically.
     
  4. Game_Breaker

    Game_Breaker First Grade

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    But they appear in more than one, which was my point


    But there isn’t a general acceptance and you used their ‘authenticity’ to form an argument

    It was your argument, I merely exposed the holes


    I just look at the facts
    People who actually met Aisha said she was unreliable

    Bukhara didn’t meet her


    The contradictions exist in the areas I already posted


    Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq.”

    He never narrates the Aisha Hadith once in Medina
    Only as an old man in Iraq
    Questionable


    I’m pretty sure I know what my argument was
    I even said this



    But there is a need for parental help to recollect other details

    I don’t remember who/when visited my parents when I was 3/4


    And others have decided it isn’t

    Well he is a historian

    Why don’t we let a third party decide?


    And we’ll let be the third party
    A team of academics translating historical text

    Volume 11 from memory

    The head narrator is one source
    If other head narrators independent of Aisha who were also present narrated the same thing then that would make it a seperate source

    If I go on a speaking tour around Australia and 1000s of people go to my event about my life - they’re not all sources

    There’s only one source, and that’s me


    Historians don’t need explicit sources like that to come to a conclusions

    You said Mary had other children, yet not one source explicitly says that


    There have been narrators who have been rejected for less
    Raising an army against both a Sunni accepted Rightly guided Caliph and a Shi’a Imam is a pretty big deal


    We don’t need the exact year
    We can still determine if it was late Meccan or not

    Her remembering relies on the sura being late Meccan
     
  5. Snoop

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    So.

    There is. Ask any Sunni what are the two best hadith collections.

    And other people who met her said she was reliable. Sort of depends where you fall on the Sunni/Shia debate doesn't it.

    I don't think you understand what I am saying. There is no source that claims Aisha was 14 or older when married. None. No one directly contradicts the ages of 6/7 and 9. The contradiction has to be formulated from other dates and times. These other dates and times are disputed since there are contradictory values for them. For example some say the age difference between Aisha and her sister was 10 and some say 19.



    And Yaqub goes on to say "at which time he narrated overly from his father and was criticized for it." In other words he didn't give the full isnad.

    First of all we don't know at all that he never narrated from Aisha in Medina, simply that we don't have narrations from him in Medina. But others did.

    I don't see how you can't see how our arguments differ.

    Did you visit someone every day or where you visited by someone every day?

    Who also reports on at least 4 occasions that Aisha was 6 and 9.

    One academic translated each volume by the way and the academic who translated volume 11 noted that this contradicts the notion that Aisha was 6 when married. Did the translator of volume 9 get it wrong where Tabari said Aisha was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her?

    Mark does.

    No you can't for the reason I stated.
     
  6. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    Here's another question. If Aisha was 14 when Muhammad married her why did he wait three years to consummate the marriage? In that day and age 14 was quite an acceptable age to engage sexually.
     
  7. Game_Breaker

    Game_Breaker First Grade

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    So, they're diluting the isnad


    I can ask any Sufi and they might give me a different answer too
    If there's contention within Islam about the issue, then you can't claim is as strong evidence

    While you're at it, why not tell us who Muhammad left as his successor

    So there is contention about her reliability

    As I said earlier, I guess that happens when you raise an army against a Sunni accepted Caliph and a Shi'a Imam



    The contradiction exists
    That's my point
    and the source and narrator you use is not accepted by all of Islam as you incorrectly claimed

    I would consider a source strong if both Sunni and Shi'a schools of through consider it strong

    In other words?
    He said he relied too much on his father and his Iraqi hadiths are unreliable - that's it
    guess who Ibn Hisham narated the hadith from and where was he at the time?

    Even Malik ibn Anas didn't use hadiths from Ibn Hisham when in Iraq

    He is a weak link in the chain


    That's a pretty piss poor response
    We're talking about evidence here



    You're right

    You're using contradiction to reject
    I use contradictions + early rejection from people who were alive before Bukhari



    Probably, but I don't remember


    and it's been well documents the sources he uses are incredibly weak



    We've established that

    That is a big difference from 'SUNY didn't translate it' though


    Where does Mark explicitly say Mary had other children of her own?

    It's a surah that followed a specific incident, many Quran commentators say this was 5 years before hijrah
     
  8. Game_Breaker

    Game_Breaker First Grade

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    You're asking me why waited 3 years, a claim made by your source which I don't accept as fact?
     
  9. Snoop

    Snoop Coach

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    My sources also makes the claim that Muhammad married Aisha and had sex with her. Do you reject this claim as well?
     
  10. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    Fundamentalist Islam is not compatible with civilisation:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-05/call-for-jihad-against-sukarno-daughter-over-poem/9624324

    Indonesian hard-line Islamic group calls for jihad and protests against ex-president's daughter


    One of Indonesia's most respected Islamic clerics has issued a call for calm as religious conservatives attack the daughter of the nation's first president, Sukarno.

    One hard-line group has issued a "call for jihad" against Sukmawati Sukarnoputri for allegedly insulting Islam in a poem.

    It is the same blasphemy offence that led to a two-year jail term for Jakarta's Christian governor "Ahok" Basuki.

    The head of the Indonesian Ulema Council, Ma'ruf Amin, has called for compassion and compromise as Ms Sukmawati's critics attempt to escalate the issue into a major crisis.

    "We need to solve our differences through dialogue, to find solution and agreement … we don't want conflict like in other countries," said Ma'ruf Amin, who held a joint press conference with Ms Sukmawati.

    The hard-line Islamic Defenders Front (FPI), who issued the "call for jihad", has asked its supporters to protest against Ms Sukmawati after this week's Friday prayers.

    The group complained to police about a poem written by the younger sister of former president Megawati Sukarnoputri.

    The complaint focused on two lines of the poem, written in 2006.

    "I don't know Islamic Sharia, what I know is that the essence of Mother Indonesia's konde (a traditional hairstyle) is very beautiful, more so than the veil on your face.

    … I don't know Islamic Sharia, what I know is that Mother Indonesia's song is so pleasing, more so than your call to prayer."

    Ms Sukmawati, like her father and sister, is Muslim.

    Ms Sukmawati has apologised to "all the Muslims in Indonesia" for offending them but her apology has not satisfied groups like the FPI.

    Behind the criticism of Ms Sukmawati is a complex web of revenge and political alliances ahead of general elections in 2019.

    The FPI has loathed Ms Sukmawati since she made a complaint to police last year about FPI leader Habib Rizieq Shihab, saying the cleric had insulted Indonesia's founding principles.

    Rizieq fled the country during a police investigation into the complaint, and remains in self-imposed exile in Saudi Arabia.

    It is possible he will be prosecuted over the offence if he returns.

    Ms Sukmawati and her sister Megawati are also political allies of Indonesia's president Joko Widodo.

    Ms Megawati is chair of Jokowi's PDIP party. The president is up for re-election next year and his campaign would be damaged by protests or criminal charges against Ms Sukmawati.

    One potential rival candidate against Jokowi, former military commander Gatot Nurmantyo, has joined in the controversy with a poem of his own.

    "Beautiful and lovely Mother Indonesia is not her real face.

    "Hers is that way because of the beaming glow that glorifies her beauty with songs of praise for God, the guidance of the Koran and the calling of the Lord, which is the call to prayer, in every corner of the archipelago."

    The FPI says it will hold protests on Friday outside Jakarta's police headquarters.
     
  11. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-14/qatar-abattoir-suspended-over-animal-welfare-concerns/9658780

    Qatari abattoir suspended over animal welfare concerns, as new vision shows sheep beaten

    The Federal Agriculture Department has suspended shipments of Australian sheep to an abattoir in Qatar over new allegations of animal welfare violations and breaches of supply chain rules.

    Last week the Nine Network broadcast video of 2,400 sheep that had died of heat stress on board an export ship bound for the Middle East.

    On Saturday the Department said it had received new information and vision from advocacy group Animals Australia, raising serious concerns about the abattoir's operations and compliance with the Federal Government's Exporter Supply Chain Assurance System (ESCAS).

    "The allegations include apparent on-selling of sheep to private buyers from the approved supply chain, and mishandling of sheep at an ESCAS-approved abattoir in Qatar," the department said in a statement.

    "Supply of animals to the abattoir was immediately suspended and any animals already at the abattoir have been removed.

    "In effect, this means no further Australian sheep can be transported to or slaughtered at this abattoir."

    It is understood the Nine Network has a deal to broadcast more vision which shows sheep being thrown around in the abattoir's holding pens and beaten with a stick.

    Figures from Meat and Livestock Australia show Qatar as one of the largest export markets for Australian sheep.

    In the 12 months to February, 661,000 sheep had been exported to the Middle Eastern nation.

    The Agriculture Department says this is the first complaint about sheep exports to Qatar since the regulatory scheme was introduced in 2011.

    Animals Australia has made a series of complaints about the live export trade since the beginning of March, including allegations of "non-compliant handling practices" in the United Arab Emirates and Oman in addition to the current complaint in Qatar.

    The Australian Maritime Safety Authority blocked a shipment of 65,000 sheep leaving Fremantle on Monday, amid ongoing animal welfare concerns.

    The Awassi Express is the same vessel, operated by Emanuel Exports, linked to the death of 2,400 sheep last August.

    Earlier this week, Agriculture Minister David Littleproud argued a thorough investigation of the capabilities of the live export regulator would be undertaken in the wake of the scandal, but resisted calls for a live export ban.

    RPSCA offers to place independent observers on ships
    The RSPCA has offered to place independent observers on board the next eight long-haul shipments of sheep, in a bid to avoid further animal welfare scandals.

    "At this point in time, we are very concerned the Department is making decisions that do not reflect the gravity of the situation or the seriousness of the risks to animal health and welfare," the organisation's chief scientist Dr Bidda Jones argued.

    "It's clear from the outpouring of concern we've received from the public that they no longer trust the regulator to act to protect the welfare of exported animals.

    "That's why the RSPCA is stepping up to provide this important oversight."

    The organisation said it had many staff capable and qualified in assessing animal welfare.

    Dr Jones alleged other live export ships crowded with sheep had left port while the Awassi Express had been blocked from beginning its journey to the Middle East.
     
  12. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-...o-maximum-four-years-nine-months-jail/9702536

    Mehmet Biber jailed for four years after travelling to Syria to fight with jihadist organisation

    A 25-year-old Sydney man sentenced to four years in prison for travelling to Syria to fight was affected by religious lectures at school, his father said.

    Mehmet Biber was sentenced to a maximum of four years and nine months in jail after pleading guilty to a foreign incursion offence in Syria.

    In the judgement handed down on Friday at Sydney Supreme court, Gaven Biber described his son Mehmet Biber's former school, Parramatta High School, as a "religious hothouse".

    "Visiting mullahs and prayer groups and school-employed emirs were a constant feature of education there. All of them it seemed legitimising a strain of Sunni fundamentalism," Gaven Biber's statement read.

    Mehmet flew to Turkey then crossed the border into Syria with the Islamist rebel group al-Sham in July 2013, leaving behind his pregnant wife.

    He was arrested in 2016 and pleaded guilty to entering a foreign country intending hostile activity earlier this year.

    Mehmet 'embarrassed of his Alawite heritage'
    Mehmet went with the intention of battling forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad, but did not participate in any fighting.

    His father said: "We were very happy that Australian public schools were totally secular and gladly sent Mehmet to one. We were misinformed."

    "It became clear too late to me that Mehmet was being made to be embarrassed of his Alawite heritage — a situation which worsened when Assad began to massacre civilians."

    The man said he believed his son wanted to be seen as opposing Assad in order to make up for the religious and cultural associations of his family.

    Gaven Biber said he did not support Assad, but he felt that all Alawites in Australia were suspected of doing so.

    During sentencing submissions last week the 25-year-old told the court he only "ate, slept and kicked a football" in Syria.

    He said he was not involved in any fighting, but rather spent his time at a rural guest house and playing soccer.

    Justice Christine Adamson said Mehmet posed no risk to the public and had excellent prospects of rehabilitation.

    The NSW Department of Education said it "categorically" rejected the "unfounded and unsubstantiated historical allegation".

    "Where concerns about anti-social and extremist behaviour do arise in NSW schools, the schools are required to report them to a dedicated hotline which is available seven days a week.

    "The department has five specialist support teams in place to work with public and non-government schools to develop strategies to reduce the opportunity for anti-social and extremist behaviour to develop in the school environment."

    Father went to Turkey to bring son home
    The court also heard Mehmet's father contacted authorities four times and went to Turkey to bring his son home.

    Outside court Gaven Biber said that decision saved his son's life.

    "Any parent would have done the same thing that I did," he said.

    "We did everything in our power to stop him. Unfortunately the authorities gave us no help whatsoever.

    "We had to travel in Turkey and persuade him to come back, which we achieved that goal. We're very proud of ourselves."
     
  13. mackdadday

    mackdadday Juniors

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    FYI and the general knowledge banks of all, 'Biber' is the Turkish word for pepper.
     
  14. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    Did this guy suffer from a mental illness, or did he suffer from religion? Where do the two conditions overlap and/or reinforce one another?

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-30/minto-stabbing-sees-accused-terrorist-on-trial/9712110

    Sydney terrorism accused Ihsas Khan wanted police to kill him, court hears

    A man charged with committing a terrorist attack in Sydney wanted to be a martyr, egging on police to shoot him after he stabbed his neighbour with a hunting knife, the Supreme Court has heard.

    Ihsas Khan, 22, was charged with committing a terrorist act with the intent to influence the Australian Government. He was also charged with attempted murder.

    The crown prosecutor told the court there was no disputing that Mr Khan stabbed his neighbour Wayne Greenhalgh on September 10, 2016 on Ohlsen Street in Minto, but that he was pleading not guilty, because of mental illness.

    In his opening address on Monday, crown prosecutor Peter Neil SC said there was evidence to suggest Mr Khan had been planning to attack a civilian at random on September 11 to coincide with the anniversary of the Al Qaeda attacks on the United States.

    But the crown said on September 10, Mr Khan picked out his neighbour, Mr Greenhalgh, because he believed he was wearing a shirt with some sort of American motif on it.

    The jury heard Mr Greenhalgh was walking his dog when Mr Khan attacked him with a hunting knife, telling him he was going to kill him and saying: "You rape our women, you rape our children, you bomb our countries".

    Mr Greenhalgh sustained life-threatening injuries, but managed to run into a local hairdressers.

    When Mr Khan saw the blood he was heard to say: "What a beautiful sight this is".

    Locked out of the hairdressers, the court heard Mr Khan stabbed at the glass door, saying: "They killed our people, he should be killed too," "Allah Akbar" and "they tried to kill my brothers and sisters in Iraq".

    The crown prosecutor said Mr Khan "wanted to be a martyr" and was heard to say "I want to die today, I'm going to die today".

    He said Mr Khan wanted the police to kill him and when they arrived he confronted them with his knife and said: "What does it take to be shot by a cop?"

    The crown prosecutor told the jury there was no dispute over what happened that day, but the real issue was what the accused's state of mind was when he did it.

    Mr Khan had severe obsessive compulsive disorder at the time but the crown was set to argue that he would have known his conduct was wrong and he could have controlled himself.

    The crown described him as a "self-radicalised extremist Muslim".

    The court heard Khan was an academic high achiever who attended the selective Hurlstone Agricultural High and got high distinctions in his pharmacy degree at the University of Sydney.

    However in 2013 he told his GP he thought the world was against Muslims and that he suffered anxiety attacks after watching violent videos on the internet. He subsequently spent 10 weeks in Campbelltown Hospital for psychiatric treatment.

    He was born in Australia in 1993 a few months after his parents moved from Bangladesh. He had little contact, if any, with his father since he was 14. His mother died of cancer in 2015.

    The trial is expected to run for four weeks.
     
  15. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    The religion of peace

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-13/indonesia-explosions-outside-churches-in-surabaya/9756260

    Explosions outside churches in Surabaya, Indonesia's second biggest city

    Suicide bombers attacked three churches across Indonesia's second-largest city Surabaya on Sunday, killing at least two people and injuring a dozen others, police said.

    "The victims are still being identified," East Java police spokesman Frans Barung Mangera said.

    Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim-majority country and has seen a recent resurgence in homegrown militancy.

    Police told media the attacks were carried out by "suicide bombers" and that at least two people were killed and 13 were injured in the blasts.

    Television images showed debris scattered around the entrance of one church and police cordoning off areas as crowds gathered.

    Authorities were also investigating whether there was an explosion at a fourth church.

    More to come.

    Reuters/ABC
     
    Smack likes this.
  16. Bandwagon

    Bandwagon Moderator Staff Member

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    These f**kbags will never learn.
     
  17. Smack

    Smack First Grade

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  18. t-ba

    t-ba Coach

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    Oddly enough there was also a prison riot in West Java orchestrated by ISIS returnes that wound up killing 5 members of DENSUS88 a few days ago.

    And there has been an attack on police HQ in Surabaya this morning. Obviously a big pre-Ramadhan push going on from ISIS returnees, which I don't think Indonesia was ever prepared for.


    Hope Iran gets the bomb and levels Riyadh tbh...
     
  19. magpie4ever

    magpie4ever First Grade

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    f**k Iran, they are dogs also - let Israel level both.
     
    Smack likes this.
  20. Game_Breaker

    Game_Breaker First Grade

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    Perhaps nuke Jeruselam?
    Another Muslim holy site

    But anyway, the Saudis and Israel changed their facebook status from ‘its complicated’ to ‘in a relationahip’
     

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