Times are a changing

Discussion in 'Four Corners' started by DiegoNT, Jul 7, 2017.

  1. Surely

    Surely Moderator Staff Member

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    What does it compare with in the current fossil fuel powered range ?
     
  2. Danish

    Danish Referee

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    They claim about 350km, so real world that is like more like 300km in lots of traffic.

    Funnily enough electric cars actually get much worse economy on the highway than they do in the city as well. So if you travel at 100km/h or more regularly, your range will be worse.
     
  3. Bandwagon

    Bandwagon Coach

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    The economy's roughly the same, it's the comparison against that suffers.
     
  4. Danish

    Danish Referee

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    You may be right.

    Point is thought electric cars max range is rarely achievable, whereas bettering a petrol cars advertised fuel economy figure is very easy.

    From what I read on Tesla owner forums the only way you get the max range is if you drive on the highway..... but stick to 80km/h or so. Reading about how they have to plot their trips when driving long distance is also pretty terrible i.e. taking 8-9 hours to do a journey that would take 4-5 in a petrol car.

    Definitely still a lot of ironing out to do with electric cars before they can replace petrol completely
     
  5. Bandwagon

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    Obviously depends on the usage, Australia and America will have problems with range far more than will most European countries, because we do drive long distances. We also don't mind our large gas guzzlers, so that's a thing.

    But on the other hand, I'd guess for most people living in the major cities a few hundred k's range would be far more than enough for 99% of their driving.
     
  6. Danish

    Danish Referee

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    Certainly will. Personally an electric car would suit me down to the ground, and I'm sure it would most city dwellers.

    Commercial vehicles will need to remain diesel for some time to come though. The energy needed to shift freight and such is well beyond the reach of electric for the foreseeable future (although hydrogen could be an option)
     
  7. Surely

    Surely Moderator Staff Member

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    I drive a little fiesta St, can get from maryboring to the Goldy and back on one tank.

    I'd have to save a f**k load of fuel to make up for the 30k price difference.
     
  8. Parra

    Parra Coach

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    Hybrids will smash it though. Look what is being done in F1 and LMP1 cars with recovery of both heat and kinetic energy and using it when it is required - no reliance on coal either - just more efficient use of existing energy.
     
  9. Danish

    Danish Referee

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    I don't think hybrids aren't the long term answer. Lugging around 2 x drive trains is a massive waste of energy since you are basically doubling the weight having twice as many engines.

    Hydrogen will be the fuel source for long range and commercial vehicles IMO. It gets similar economy and range as petrol, just doesn't have the distribution at the moment but that could be sorted with some investment
     
  10. bazza

    bazza Coach

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    Main issue with hydrogen is that due it being the least dense gas you need huge space to store it

    There has been some research into using ammonia to carry the hydrogen, which could potentially improve that scenario

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-...uld-fuel-renewable-energy-export-boom/8518916

    Ammonia is approximately 10x more dense than hydrogen, however, petrol is 10x more dense again
     
  11. myrrh ken

    myrrh ken Bench

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    I thought the main issue with hydrogen is the boom boom
     
  12. Bandwagon

    Bandwagon Coach

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    Yeah me too, something about "oh the humanity" seemed to dampen the enthusiasm for it's use in transport
     
  13. Danish

    Danish Referee

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    We've managed for a century driving around with extremely flammable petrol powering our cars. We have also seemed to be able to drive tankers full of pressurised LPG all over the world without any catastrophic events. I'm sure the adaption is not difficult.

    And if you want to talk flammable, try googling what happens when a lithium ion battery has a failure. Richard Hammond experienced such an issue first hand a few weeks back when he rolled an electric supercar and the thing burnt to a crisp (thankfully after he'd cleared the vehicle).

    Honda are leading the way with hydrogen cell vehicles at the moment. Do some reading on the Honda Clarity FCV. Besides a smaller boot because of the hydrogen tanks (as the cell tech improves this will become less of a problem) it is a regular production car with a range that destroys any electric vehicle on the market (and many petrol cars as well).

    It will be an excellent technology to compliment electric vehicles for when you need to drive long distances. Trucks, delivery vans, buses, and other commercial vehicles IMO will all be hydrogen powered in the future while your basic commuter car moving around the city will be electric.

    I also highly doubt any vehicle by the year 2040 or so will be driven by a human but that is another story.
     
  14. Parra

    Parra Coach

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    Hope we don't have to wait for 2040 for that
     
  15. Danish

    Danish Referee

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    I think we'll get autonomous vehicles well before 2040. I'd be absolutely shocked if they weren't on the roads in some form by 2020 and widespread by 2025 or so. I just think the time line from when they hit the roads to when human piloted vehicles are phased out is going to take quite some time.

    IMO it will be 10-15 years from when they hit the market to when they take over it completely. First you have to get people comfortable with having them on the streets and riding in them, and then you need to create a robust and affordable pricing model so that you can move everyone across to the system.

    Something along the lines of a subscription based service offered by car manufacturers (companies like Uber will get f**king destroyed by the automakers and no longer exist). You won't own a car, you'll just pay for access to Ford's fleet of auto-vehicles. You'll then summon a car (with different rates depending on size, ride comfort, shared/private, etc), it will take you where you need to go. You'll either have a monthly/annual subscription with a set amount of built in kms, or can just PAYG like you would a taxi/uber today.

    Wealthy people will be able to purchase their own vehicle of course, but it will not be a practical use of space for most people (imagine how much bigger your home would be if you didn't have to dedicate so much space to a bloody garage).
     
  16. Surely

    Surely Moderator Staff Member

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    Good point 500 degree fire underneath you is not good.

    Meanwhile I'm just working out how many years driving 30k of petrol gets me

    Its around 20 years
     
  17. TheVelourFog

    TheVelourFog Bench

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    not great for you now, but if you had more than 20 years of driving ahead of you then its a no-brainer
     
  18. Surely

    Surely Moderator Staff Member

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    Not really , I doubt you'll get through 20;years without a battery change.

    And I haven't even factored in the recharge costs which I think based in the us is around $12 per week.
     
  19. millersnose

    millersnose Post Whore

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    and about a billion tonnes of emmisions from the original power source which will inevitably be from fossil fuels
     
  20. Bandwagon

    Bandwagon Coach

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    You're not comparing apples with apples though, I don't think you can compare a 5K car with a 35k car
     

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