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To all fathers and men on fathers day.

miguel de cervantes

First Grade
Messages
7,468
the chemical imbalance

look it up

I Googled "depression chemical imbalance". Out of the top 8 results 6 or so are somewhat critical of the chemical imbalance explanation saying it is a major simplification of a complex condition. I would suggest that the drugs that meddle with these chemicals don't treat the underlying cause of depression in the majority of cases, and only produce a somewhat superficial and temporary improvement (sort of like a cough lolly for a cough).

I reckon only a minority of cases where for some genetic reason (unrelated to other genetic causes of depression to do with the hard-wiring of the brain) there is a production of a chemical imbalance in the same way a minority of obese people are obese because of a genetic glitch that prevents the correct breakdown of certain elements of food even though they may a have a diet similar to much less obese people.

---
Linkys:

http://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression
http://www.portlanddepressiontreatment.com/is-depression-just-a-chemical-imbalance/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-depression-just-bad-chemistry/
http://psychcentral.com/news/2006/11/09/depressions-chemical-imbalance-explained/398.html
https://www.beyondblue.org.au/the-facts/depression/what-causes-depression

etc...
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
56,108
I Googled "depression chemical imbalance". Out of the top 8 results 6 or so are somewhat critical of the chemical imbalance explanation saying it is a major simplification of a complex condition. I would suggest that the drugs that meddle with these chemicals don't treat the underlying cause of depression in the majority of cases, and only produce a somewhat superficial and temporary improvement (sort of like a cough lolly for a cough).

I reckon only a minority of cases where for some genetic reason (unrelated to other genetic causes of depression to do with the hard-wiring of the brain) there is a production of a chemical imbalance in the same way a minority of obese people are obese because of a genetic glitch that prevents the correct breakdown of certain elements of food even though they may a have a diet similar to much less obese people.

---
Linkys:

http://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression
http://www.portlanddepressiontreatment.com/is-depression-just-a-chemical-imbalance/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-depression-just-bad-chemistry/
http://psychcentral.com/news/2006/11/09/depressions-chemical-imbalance-explained/398.html
https://www.beyondblue.org.au/the-facts/depression/what-causes-depression

etc...

The term "chemical imbalance" is a gross oversimplification of the process of depression, but it isn't necessarily the incorrect theory (and, as are so many other ideas in medicine, they are theories, because science doesn't burden its practitioners with the concept of absolutes, unlike mathematics).

When humans are happy, and relaxed, they release certain hormones into their bloodstream. It's actually a similar process to when you hold your loved one in your arms, or when a mother holds her newborn.

But when a mother suffers from postnatal depression, the prevailing theories jot it down to hormonal changes in the mother's body - she's not releasing the correct hormones into her body so she's not feeling the love for her child, even though logically she knows she does love her child.

I don't really see the distinction here - a mother feels empty towards her newborn, and society says, "Hormones - not get fault."

But a man of 30, rich in finance, family and friends, ends his life because he feels nothing towards his beautiful wife and child, and society immediately questions how he could be depressed if his life was that great.

Sure, to people who have regular brain function - but if your brain isn't allowing you to feel the highs of life, wouldn't you reach a point of no return?

As a sufferer of depression for many years, I want to clear up the idea that people must be unhappy when they're depressed.

I've never felt sad - I have had a great life, and I'm truly fortunate.

But I've felt anger at friends and family for totally illogical (to mist people's minds, anyway) reasons, and I've felt complete nothingness towards partners and friends that I logically know mean the world to me.

People, let's process that for a second - imagine looking into the eyes of your wife/husband/partner, and knowing you love them, but feeling nothing.

There seems to be a taboo with depression and suicide, but I have to day - that inability to feel feelings, despite therapy and medication, nearly pushed me over the edge. It truly is hell.
 

miguel de cervantes

First Grade
Messages
7,468
I like the way you describe this. The processing of emotions/feelings or the inability, incorrectness or inefficiency in doing so. This is where I feel the secret lies. Are the normal environmental triggers not triggering emotions? Are the emotions being triggered but being incorrectly processed or transfered to other parts of the brain? Probably the latter.

But I've felt anger at friends and family for totally illogical (to most people's minds, anyway) reasons

And this is a telling anecdote. Agitation and aggression as a symptom of depression whilst it may seem unrelated, and not necessarily related to feeling sad. Again, I suggest it stems from a disruptive or incorrect processing of emotions. Are emotions being pent up until they reach a breaking point, leading to seemingly radical behaviour?
 

Misanthrope

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
47,604
Eele hits the nail on the head.

By all accounts I should be the last person who should be depressed. I've got a fantastic family who are there for me at the drop of a hat if I need them, I have very close friends who would do the same, I travel the world either for free or get paid to do so, and I'm healthy.

The only thing 'missing' from my life is a romantic interest, but in the past I have had that and it hasn't made a huge impact. If anything, my depression has tended to worsen when I was in a relationship for the reasons Eele described. I'd find myself feeling worse because I couldn't love my partner the way they loved me and I couldn't feel happiness despite everything I had going for you.

I think that is what makes depression so insidious in western culture. In second and third world countries those who are depressed either don't know it or they know and they can see reasons why in their lives. In the first world, we can find no reason and so there is no 'wishful thinking' we can engage in.

We can't think to ourselves: "I'm depressed, but if I could just find a way to feed my family, it will all be worth it". Instead, we have all we feel we should need to be happy, and we still fail at what everybody else seems to do with such ease.

You are right that being away from your 'day to day life' by being elsewhere does help. When I am not constantly reminded of my failings by being surrounded by shiny, happy people - I am much less bothered by the fact I am unable to be happy like 'normal people'.
 

sportive cupid

Referee
Messages
25,047
http://www.newphilosopher.com/articles/is-the-promotion-of-happiness-making-us-sad/

Just putting this out there fir you guys to think about.This article talks kinda to what you are saying.The expectation that the state of happiness ahould be always our goal may be making us sad.

I would point some of you to the mindfulness concept in therapy..iIts the new wave idea this artcle refers to and is basically learning to accept and sit with the entire range of human emotion s we feel as normal.

It really works ,but id suggest soeaking to a professional counsellir for an individual plan.
 

sportive cupid

Referee
Messages
25,047
It's not new age ...it's based on quite ancient thought.

It has some similarities to CBT but some crucial differences .

It's not a wank but its backed up by clear peer reviewed research and positive outcomes -particularly with anxiety and depression.

The similarities come from the addressing of thoughts and feelings ,but the difference comes basically from the less emphasis on the mind and more on the feeling ( physical and mental) .More on the present and less on the judging of feelings as good or bad but happening.

Mediation has been around for ages and has some similarities to mindfulness practices.
*.
I might be oversimplifying things but this is a lay forum.

I wonder if you have been swayed by the "counsellors" who say they practice therapies based on mindfulness but have no real qualifications...there are lots out there.

Mindfulness is very much in the mainstream of therapy these days.Even some pharmaceutical peddler so use it


btw ..I have university qualifications in counselling which are recognised by Medicare.I don't practice mindfulness therapies or CBT professionally,but I know the research and work with people who do practice both.

I do use mindfulness in my everyday life though
 
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Misanthrope

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
47,604
I've found it useless on the multiple occasions it's been recommended to me.

It could be that it works for people who don't already have a great deal of emotional awareness or familiarity with the way their mind works, but if I could think my way out of clinical depression - I would have a decade or so ago.
 
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sportive cupid

Referee
Messages
25,047
Sounds like you tried the self help type .

It's not really just about the mind and knowing your own mind .At least the peer reviewed type isn't.

you wouldn't take prescription drugs across the counter self medicated and expect them to work the same way they did if a psychiatrist prescribed them for you would you?

As I said there are plenty of quacks who have done a bit of reading on the Internet or a short course and think them can do this .

It's not that simple .

Btw ,the reasearch indicates it works for more than just the unaware .

It may not work for you -that's ok .Doesnt mean it doesn't have scientifically positive results for many .
 

Misanthrope

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
47,604
I've yet to find a therapist I could stomach for more than 3-4 sessions. It all tends to devolve into rosy platitudes and self-help BS by session #2. Rather frustrating.
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
56,108
Sounds like you tried the self help type .

It's not really just about the mind and knowing your own mind .At least the peer reviewed type isn't.

you wouldn't take prescription drugs across the counter self medicated and expect them to work the same way they did if a psychiatrist prescribed them for you would you?

As I said there are plenty of quacks who have done a bit of reading on the Internet or a short course and think them can do this .

It's not that simple .

Btw ,the reasearch indicates it works for more than just the unaware .

It may not work for you -that's ok .Doesnt mean it doesn't have scientifically positive results for many .

That's an important point - everyone is different.

Mindfulness hasn't helped me out in the slightest.
 

sportive cupid

Referee
Messages
25,047
Not wishing to start therapy here Eel,and acknowledging your pain, your previous posts here don't sound a lot like someone who has explored mindfulness in the evidence based sense .

But you have to find what works for you ..I genuinely hope you do.

It sounded like you struggle with making sense of your feelings ,or maybe making sense of others reactions to your feelings? ( like you are made to feel like you shouldn't feel like you do or depressed people are meant to feel sad and not angry ) This is still about analysing feelings rather than feeling those feelings and becoming aware of how they feel for you


I just think that mindfulness has been given a bum rap because of its association with wanker new age[quackery .its not really that at all .Its highly mainstream and can be -and is - used in conjunction with other more tradition methods of therapy for depression for many.
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
56,108
Not wishing to start therapy here Eel,and acknowledging your pain, your previous posts here don't sound a lot like someone who has explored mindfulness in the evidence based sense .

But you have to find what works for you ..I genuinely hope you do.

It sounded like you struggle with making sense of your feelings ,or maybe making sense of others reactions to your feelings? ( like you are made to feel like you shouldn't feel like you do or depressed people are meant to feel sad and not angry ) This is still about analysing feelings rather than feeling those feelings and becoming aware of how they feel for you


I just think that mindfulness has been given a bum rap because of its association with wanker new age[quackery .its not really that at all .Its highly mainstream and can be -and is - used in conjunction with other more tradition methods of therapy for depression for many.

I gave it a red hot go, because I don't want to live my life life this.

But it didn't work for me.
 
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