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Viable option to replace Griffin or should he stay.

Fangs

Coach
Messages
11,415
f**k what a surprise, another thread taken over by the 'Griffin out' mob. The poor old victims of this forum...

You are right to call it a mob. Its growing by the day. Even I'm a part of it now, because its more than obvious that Griffin isn't the right man to the lead the Panthers. That is even if we scrape the 8 this year.

I agree with most of your comments on Gus. If there was a 'Gus Out' thread then I'd be opposed.
 

Fangs

Coach
Messages
11,415
Penrith should be playing finals every year.

As should the Warriors. Says quite a bit about the quality of administrators/coaches in the NRL.

Melbourne, Broncos and maybe the Roosters. Those are the only real powerhouse clubs in the NRL.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,976
Comprehensive. Thank you

That was the revised version as well, I had to cut some passages off.

For instance, it was clear to everyone that replacing Darren Lockyer was going to be a very difficult task and a priority for the club moving forward. Instead of having Hunt and Norman ply their trade in QCup in 2011 to give us options in 2012, Hook ignored it completely. Hunt remained on the bench where he had developed as much as he was going to in that role and Norman was playing in the 20s.

The Under 20s as a developmental competition is great to a certain extent, but when you're a player like Corey Norman or Nathan Cleary the sooner you get out of there, the better you're going to become as a player. Unfortunately he picked up a lot of bad habits and seemed hesitant to ever go off script. It didn't help that the Broncos pet play was hoping that Norman would improvise and pull something off (which he could do from time to time).

As you can see, I can speak all day about Hook and find all of your thoughts on him really informative.
 

greynurse

Juniors
Messages
117
So ashton wanted a Broncos fans perspective on Griffin's time at the club.

So okay, the Broncos relationship with Hook can be traced back to 2006. In the QRL Grand Final, the Broncos feeder Toowoomba Clydesdales took on Hook's Redcliffe Dolphins. The Clydesdales had SMASHED Redcliffe in the prelim final, but on grand final day, Hook upped the ante on the young Toowoomba side, challenging them with speed men around the ruck to take an emphatic 13+ win.

What was especially impressive about the Dolphins' win is that they did it without one of the best players in the QRL that season. He was too busy winning a premiership in the NRL (Perry).

This win caught Bennett's attention, so the Broncos started incorporating more Dolphins' players into their squads (Emmett, Roberts, Simpson, Manihera, Wapau, Watkins etc.) and Hook was offered the role of the Holden Cup coach.

Not a lot was expected from the Broncos in their inaugural season of the Under 20s. Wayne didn't want any of the star rookies (Taylor, Moon etc.) playing 20s and so the side was primarily made up of 18 year olds and a few colts players from the QCup. The Broncos form was like a yo-yo, but eventually after some experimentation, Hook found his groove with the side and they went onto force golden point in the grand final. What set the Broncos apart that season is that they competed till the 80th minute and largely played to the percentages. The pet play was Ben Hunt kicking for Jharal Yow Yeh or Mitch Rivett on the wing, a tactic that remained his bread and butter in the NRL with Lockyer to Reed & Yow Yeh. A lot of these kids played a lot better than what was expected for him and he solved a massive headache the Broncos were having by turning McCullough from a five-eighth/lock into a Smith esque hooker. I've always wondered what would have become of McCullough if he wasn't rushed into first grade and had all of his skills coached out of him, but it is what it is.

Second year, the Broncos decide Hunt, McCullough, McGuire, Beale, Yow Yeh etc. are all too good for Holden Cup and force a new batch of rookies on Hook. They started the season 0-8 and there were all sorts of selection headaches. Who could play fullback? Who could play centre? Who could play halfback? All tough questions, but Hook kept experimenting and eventually found results. Admittedly a big part of the revival was the return of Hunt who was eventually allowed to return to the QCup, but the fullback and centre combos saw Hook turn to unheralded players like Todd Murphy and Rhys Matsen and they did a great job. The Broncos looked to be going one better, but they got beaten by the eventual premiers in the prelim which happened to be hosted on the Storm's home ground. It was a disappointing performance all told, but the way Hook's men fought back from celler dwellers to prelim finalists suggested he had plenty of skills. Furthermore, he was really developing a lot of talent for the club with the likes of Gagai, Copley, Norman, Baptiste, Hala, T. Sims, Lingwoodock all turning heads.

In 2010, Hook is promoted to assistant coach at a time where Henjak has lost the plot. The young players turn up terribly unfit, the Broncos lose Hodges at the start of the year and the senior players have had just about a gutful. Apart from squeaking out a win against a terrible Cowboys side and smashing the Sharks who were awful, the Broncos could not win any games to save themselves and looked like wooden spoon contenders. Then it comes out that Anthony Griffin has been given more of a senior role, has taken over the defensive aspect of the side and suddenly the Broncos start knocking over quality teams like Melbourne, Gold Coast, Manly, St George Illawarra etc. Eventually Lockyer gets injured and the Broncos hopes of making the finals end but the second half revival is noted by the staff and after a review, Paul White replaces Henjak with Griffin.

The Broncos 2011 season was strange in the sense that it was their best regular season since 2000, but there were still a lot of question marks about the team. The side can be best summed up by their win against Canberra at Suncorp. The Broncos were brilliant for the first 60 minutes, up 24-0, they looked home and hosed. Then they let in a couple of soft tries and suddenly the game is off to golden point. Somehow the Broncos would find ways to invite teams back into it and just did not have the mettle to hold it altogether. In the end, it would come down to individual efforts to squeak out a win, and the Broncos had a top side but they rarely looked convincing.

2012 and the Broncos start a new era without Lockyer. The Broncos make a relatively comfortable start to the season on the back of a friendly schedule. Again, the Broncos are coming up with wins, but the performances are rarely anything to write home about.

This is also where a few things started becoming apparent.

- Hook only believes in his starting 13.
- Hook can develop players into decent NRL players, but beyond that he's out of his depth.
- Hook has a size fetish. The dispute with Gagai started because Gagai couldn't meet Hook's silly weight expectations.
- Hook isn't proactive in the junior scene. In 2013, when the Broncos could have had Cameron Munster in their squad, they cared more about signing QRL players like Joe Bond, Zach Strasser, Delroy Berryman, Paul Ivan & Nat Barnes who went onto???

I'm being harsh. One thing I will say about Hook is that to the man, the players cannot say enough nice things about him. It's funny, reading through Parker's book and reading other interviews, you'd hardly believe Hook is the same person you see behave so mild mannered in press conferences, but he's a riot. He's also very astute and Parker credited him for the decision to become a lock which is where he went from an above average club player to a world class player. I'm not sure if that's entirely true since Parker made the move in 2010 under Ivan, but that could have been Hook's idea as assistant.

Continuing the history lesson, to nobody's surprise 2013 was a shambles. Instead of developing two of the brightest halves prospects, Hook brought Scott Prince in on a bargain basement deal, rendering one of the side's biggest strengths (defence) into a weakness. To nobody's surprise, the recruitment and lack of junior development let the club down and it got so bad the Broncos had to host a Q&A which I've never seen happen as a fan before or since. Eventually the Broncos opened up the purse strings signing the best free agents they could (Milford, Barba, Kennedy) but that backfired spectacularly. Eventually the Broncos had something of a second half revival with Ben Hunt finally earning a shot in the halves but by then it was too little, too late.

2014 should have been the worst year in the club's history. Canberra played hard ball with Milford, so the Broncos entered the season with Kahu/Hunt as the planned scrum combination, but an unfortunate mishap at the Wynnum trial saw Hoffman thrust into the role. This was considered a joke by the Broncos fanbase because Hoffman had a reputation for never passing the ball. The fans wanted anybody else there - Barba, Strasser, Nikorima, Paia'aua, Taylor but the coach wasn't having any of it. Despite never really being in contention, the Broncos were able to jag enough wins thanks mostly to the impressive form of Ben Hunt, Dale Copley and Daniel Vidot - all hot and cold players, to qualify for a spot in the 8, but things could have easily gone the other way if Hunt wasn't there for instance. The players that needed to perform like Barba and Kennedy turned out to be total duds and a lot of players like Gillett, McGuire, Oates, Reed etc. were underperforming.

Then the club signed Bennett which was met with mixed feelings. On one hand, the fans had just about had enough of Hook. On the other, Bennett casts a huge shadow and he was coming off an awful stint at Newcastle where he just tried too hard. Furthermore, we knew his signing would mean the return of Darius Boyd, which meant we were going to have to pay Ben Barba the courtesy of playing for another club. Bennett also seemed interested in signing Russell Packer who literally pissed on Suncorp and committed that awful assault so we were none too pleased and there was almost this sentiment of people who just wanted to see how good a coach Hook was with a world class talent like Milford at the helm.

Fast forward to Hook replacing Cleary and we're all just gobsmacked. Sure, Penrith were one result off a wooden spoon, but the Panthers suffered a horrible year in 2015 and we all knew you guys would bounce back last year. Watching you guys, it was typical Hook. That Round 3 win against us in particular was so typical of how the Broncos would play at that time. Fade in and out of matches, but if the back three can gain good metres and get the team on the advantage then something can happen off the back of it, which is how it went down on that evening.

Watching as somebody who didn't outright hate Hook, it was clear he had learned little. If there was one area he improved in, it was moving talent on and trying to get the
.
Wow thanks buddy that was really indepth. You know your Broncos shit!! Hope we can repay if you get a Panthers ex to the Broncos but unfortunately we just don't seem to produce great coaches. Except from Fittler hahahaha!!!!! Yeah there was Gould but I assume he got his smarts from the Dogs or Newtown.
 

Fangs

Coach
Messages
11,415
This is also where a few things started becoming apparent.

- Hook only believes in his starting 13.
- Hook can develop players into decent NRL players, but beyond that he's out of his depth.
- Hook has a size fetish. The dispute with Gagai started because Gagai couldn't meet Hook's silly weight expectations.
- Hook isn't proactive in the junior scene. In 2013, when the Broncos could have had Cameron Munster in their squad, they cared more about signing QRL players like Joe Bond, Zach Strasser, Delroy Berryman, Paul Ivan & Nat Barnes who went onto???

I think these judgements are pretty close to the mark.

The point on development has been raised a few times by members of the forum. I don't think he has spent enough time at Penrith to make a judgement, but if you consider his history at the Broncos it makes sense.

Size fetish? Different to Ivan Cleary for sure. Dropped Elijah Taylor quicksmart and had our forward rotation playing fairly well in 2016. Particularly Matagi/Latu who I thought were outstanding.

And I expect Gould to fill the gap when it comes to Juniors. Though I don't know what role he played with Edwards/Cleary/CHN and others who have debuted since 2016.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,976
Size fetish? Different to Ivan Cleary for sure. Dropped Elijah Taylor quicksmart and had our forward rotation playing fairly well in 2016. Particularly Matagi/Latu who I thought were outstanding.

Moreso in the backs. There's a joke among Broncos supporters about how Hook loves to fatten players up after Gagai, Maranta, Barba and Korbin Sims (speaking on behalf of Tariq when Tariq was a winger) spoke up about Hook's bulking methods.

Which is why it's no surprise to see Mansour become a world class talent under him. Hook LOVES that style of player. If he could, he probably would have an entire team of backs who just chew through metres from dummy half.

One of Hook's biggest tests came when Yow Yeh suffered his horrific injury. He had two promising backs to choose from: Dane Gagai, a skillful but raw player capable of breaking a game open or Dale Copley who is a strong runner out of dummy half and can be a threat close to the line but beyond that...

So of course he goes Copley and Gagai goes onto Newcastle where he helps them to a prelim final.

And I expect Gould to fill the gap when it comes to Juniors.

I don't think there will be the same hesitancy to blood rookies. One of Hook's biggest faults is that he had worked with a lot of those players since 2008, so it's difficult to make the tough calls when they needed to be made. At Penrith where you've guys have a surplus of juniors, he's shown more willingness to blood new talent.

I also think Gould is a better scout than Andrew Gee just quietly.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
So ashton wanted a Broncos fans perspective on Griffin's time at the club.

So okay, the Broncos relationship with Hook can be traced back to 2006. In the QRL Grand Final, the Broncos feeder Toowoomba Clydesdales took on Hook's Redcliffe Dolphins. The Clydesdales had SMASHED Redcliffe in the prelim final, but on grand final day, Hook upped the ante on the young Toowoomba side, challenging them with speed men around the ruck to take an emphatic 13+ win.

What was especially impressive about the Dolphins' win is that they did it without one of the best players in the QRL that season. He was too busy winning a premiership in the NRL (Perry).

This win caught Bennett's attention, so the Broncos started incorporating more Dolphins' players into their squads (Emmett, Roberts, Simpson, Manihera, Wapau, Watkins etc.) and Hook was offered the role of the Holden Cup coach.

Not a lot was expected from the Broncos in their inaugural season of the Under 20s. Wayne didn't want any of the star rookies (Taylor, Moon etc.) playing 20s and so the side was primarily made up of 18 year olds and a few colts players from the QCup. The Broncos form was like a yo-yo, but eventually after some experimentation, Hook found his groove with the side and they went onto force golden point in the grand final. What set the Broncos apart that season is that they competed till the 80th minute and largely played to the percentages. The pet play was Ben Hunt kicking for Jharal Yow Yeh or Mitch Rivett on the wing, a tactic that remained his bread and butter in the NRL with Lockyer to Reed & Yow Yeh. A lot of these kids played a lot better than what was expected for him and he solved a massive headache the Broncos were having by turning McCullough from a five-eighth/lock into a Smith esque hooker. I've always wondered what would have become of McCullough if he wasn't rushed into first grade and had all of his skills coached out of him, but it is what it is.

Second year, the Broncos decide Hunt, McCullough, McGuire, Beale, Yow Yeh etc. are all too good for Holden Cup and force a new batch of rookies on Hook. They started the season 0-8 and there were all sorts of selection headaches. Who could play fullback? Who could play centre? Who could play halfback? All tough questions, but Hook kept experimenting and eventually found results. Admittedly a big part of the revival was the return of Hunt who was eventually allowed to return to the QCup, but the fullback and centre combos saw Hook turn to unheralded players like Todd Murphy and Rhys Matsen and they did a great job. The Broncos looked to be going one better, but they got beaten by the eventual premiers in the prelim which happened to be hosted on the Storm's home ground. It was a disappointing performance all told, but the way Hook's men fought back from celler dwellers to prelim finalists suggested he had plenty of skills. Furthermore, he was really developing a lot of talent for the club with the likes of Gagai, Copley, Norman, Baptiste, Hala, T. Sims, Lingwoodock all turning heads.

In 2010, Hook is promoted to assistant coach at a time where Henjak has lost the plot. The young players turn up terribly unfit, the Broncos lose Hodges at the start of the year and the senior players have had just about a gutful. Apart from squeaking out a win against a terrible Cowboys side and smashing the Sharks who were awful, the Broncos could not win any games to save themselves and looked like wooden spoon contenders. Then it comes out that Anthony Griffin has been given more of a senior role, has taken over the defensive aspect of the side and suddenly the Broncos start knocking over quality teams like Melbourne, Gold Coast, Manly, St George Illawarra etc. Eventually Lockyer gets injured and the Broncos hopes of making the finals end but the second half revival is noted by the staff and after a review, Paul White replaces Henjak with Griffin.

The Broncos 2011 season was strange in the sense that it was their best regular season since 2000, but there were still a lot of question marks about the team. The side can be best summed up by their win against Canberra at Suncorp. The Broncos were brilliant for the first 60 minutes, up 24-0, they looked home and hosed. Then they let in a couple of soft tries and suddenly the game is off to golden point. Somehow the Broncos would find ways to invite teams back into it and just did not have the mettle to hold it altogether. In the end, it would come down to individual efforts to squeak out a win, and the Broncos had a top side but they rarely looked convincing.

2012 and the Broncos start a new era without Lockyer. The Broncos make a relatively comfortable start to the season on the back of a friendly schedule. Again, the Broncos are coming up with wins, but the performances are rarely anything to write home about.

This is also where a few things started becoming apparent.

- Hook only believes in his starting 13.
- Hook can develop players into decent NRL players, but beyond that he's out of his depth.
- Hook has a size fetish. The dispute with Gagai started because Gagai couldn't meet Hook's silly weight expectations.
- Hook isn't proactive in the junior scene. In 2013, when the Broncos could have had Cameron Munster in their squad, they cared more about signing QRL players like Joe Bond, Zach Strasser, Delroy Berryman, Paul Ivan & Nat Barnes who went onto???

I'm being harsh. One thing I will say about Hook is that to the man, the players cannot say enough nice things about him. It's funny, reading through Parker's book and reading other interviews, you'd hardly believe Hook is the same person you see behave so mild mannered in press conferences, but he's a riot. He's also very astute and Parker credited him for the decision to become a lock which is where he went from an above average club player to a world class player. I'm not sure if that's entirely true since Parker made the move in 2010 under Ivan, but that could have been Hook's idea as assistant.

Continuing the history lesson, to nobody's surprise 2013 was a shambles. Instead of developing two of the brightest halves prospects, Hook brought Scott Prince in on a bargain basement deal, rendering one of the side's biggest strengths (defence) into a weakness. To nobody's surprise, the recruitment and lack of junior development let the club down and it got so bad the Broncos had to host a Q&A which I've never seen happen as a fan before or since. Eventually the Broncos opened up the purse strings signing the best free agents they could (Milford, Barba, Kennedy) but that backfired spectacularly. Eventually the Broncos had something of a second half revival with Ben Hunt finally earning a shot in the halves but by then it was too little, too late.

2014 should have been the worst year in the club's history. Canberra played hard ball with Milford, so the Broncos entered the season with Kahu/Hunt as the planned scrum combination, but an unfortunate mishap at the Wynnum trial saw Hoffman thrust into the role. This was considered a joke by the Broncos fanbase because Hoffman had a reputation for never passing the ball. The fans wanted anybody else there - Barba, Strasser, Nikorima, Paia'aua, Taylor but the coach wasn't having any of it. Despite never really being in contention, the Broncos were able to jag enough wins thanks mostly to the impressive form of Ben Hunt, Dale Copley and Daniel Vidot - all hot and cold players, to qualify for a spot in the 8, but things could have easily gone the other way if Hunt wasn't there for instance. The players that needed to perform like Barba and Kennedy turned out to be total duds and a lot of players like Gillett, McGuire, Oates, Reed etc. were underperforming.

Then the club signed Bennett which was met with mixed feelings. On one hand, the fans had just about had enough of Hook. On the other, Bennett casts a huge shadow and he was coming off an awful stint at Newcastle where he just tried too hard. Furthermore, we knew his signing would mean the return of Darius Boyd, which meant we were going to have to pay Ben Barba the courtesy of playing for another club. Bennett also seemed interested in signing Russell Packer who literally pissed on Suncorp and committed that awful assault so we were none too pleased and there was almost this sentiment of people who just wanted to see how good a coach Hook was with a world class talent like Milford at the helm.

Fast forward to Hook replacing Cleary and we're all just gobsmacked. Sure, Penrith were one result off a wooden spoon, but the Panthers suffered a horrible year in 2015 and we all knew you guys would bounce back last year. Watching you guys, it was typical Hook. That Round 3 win against us in particular was so typical of how the Broncos would play at that time. Fade in and out of matches, but if the back three can gain good metres and get the team on the advantage then something can happen off the back of it, which is how it went down on that evening.

Watching as somebody who didn't outright hate Hook, it was clear he had learned little. If there was one area he improved in, it was moving talent on and trying to get the team to gel. That's what happened with your lot in the second half of last year when you finally gave Soward and Segs the flick and backed some different combinations. It was like Hook became the coach we all saw at Holden Cup, making positive changes and turning a bad situation into a positive one.

Unfortunately that's where the lessons stopped and all the tell-tale signs emerged. Clueless red-zone attack, dumb mistakes, dumb defence, dumb penalties, players being overlooked, poor bench rotation and so on...

I really enjoyed reading that.
 

Frankus

Juniors
Messages
1,943
There are a lot more guys out there who want to be nrl coaches than there are nrl teams. We had Barret and Brennan on staff so there is two options, my choice in hindsight would've been to keep Cleary.

Yep I'm well aware of that but do you want to give the top job to someone with 0 NRL experience or someone with a solid track record. I mean there are fans like you baying for blood and a new coach demanding instant success. Do you want a rookie or a seasoned performer? Of those with a decent record who would you want? And most importantly which of those would actually want to come here? We didn't know how Barrett would turn out, he wasn't setting the world on fire with the kids. For Brennan a caretaker role with view to becoming permanent is an option. But if he was good enough surely he would have got a gig already?

Of the current NRL coaches I would happily take Bennett, Bellamy, Robinson, Flannagan and maybe Macguire or Green. The rest I am kind of meh on, and that includes Cleary.
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,863
.
Wow thanks buddy that was really indepth. You know your Broncos shit!! Hope we can repay if you get a Panthers ex to the Broncos but unfortunately we just don't seem to produce great coaches. Except from Fittler hahahaha!!!!! Yeah there was Gould but I assume he got his smarts from the Dogs or Newtown.
Tim Sheens, Des Hasler all ex Panthers.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
Yep I'm well aware of that but do you want to give the top job to someone with 0 NRL experience or someone with a solid track record. I mean there are fans like you baying for blood and a new coach demanding instant success. Do you want a rookie or a seasoned performer? Of those with a decent record who would you want? And most importantly which of those would actually want to come here? We didn't know how Barrett would turn out, he wasn't setting the world on fire with the kids. For Brennan a caretaker role with view to becoming permanent is an option. But if he was good enough surely he would have got a gig already?

Of the current NRL coaches I would happily take Bennett, Bellamy, Robinson, Flannagan and maybe Macguire or Green. The rest I am kind of meh on, and that includes Cleary.

Watne Bennet can stay away after what he did to the knights.
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,863
That was the revised version as well, I had to cut some passages off.

For instance, it was clear to everyone that replacing Darren Lockyer was going to be a very difficult task and a priority for the club moving forward. Instead of having Hunt and Norman ply their trade in QCup in 2011 to give us options in 2012, Hook ignored it completely. Hunt remained on the bench where he had developed as much as he was going to in that role and Norman was playing in the 20s.

The Under 20s as a developmental competition is great to a certain extent, but when you're a player like Corey Norman or Nathan Cleary the sooner you get out of there, the better you're going to become as a player. Unfortunately he picked up a lot of bad habits and seemed hesitant to ever go off script. It didn't help that the Broncos pet play was hoping that Norman would improvise and pull something off (which he could do from time to time).

As you can see, I can speak all day about Hook and find all of your thoughts on him really informative.
Your point about u20's is exactly what Gus said. It is too big a step up to first grade and as soon as he took over players started getting rotated up through the 20's into NSW cup and into first grade. Lo and behold we actually have seen some juniors come through who have been able to make the step up into first grade.

Thanks for your brilliant commentary. I think it is clear that Hook's limitations mean we need to move on, but I want no part of the 'Gus out" campaign. He makes mistakes. Bennett makes mistakes, Paul White makes mistakes. It would be crazy to punt somebody with his experience with all the good things we are seeing. One bad year in first grade (I'm prepared to say it is bad year after last week. We have stagnated) is no reason to overturn the whole administration. I don't think people understand just how bad the club was when Gus joined. I read people saying "Manly turned it around in one year and so did Canberra'. Really? Canberra turned it around in a year? What about Manly last year?

Success takes time to build and if we get the right coach, we can still win a premiership in the next few years.
 

martielang

Bench
Messages
3,385
So of course he goes Copley and Gagai goes onto Newcastle where he helps them to a prelim final.

Wasn't Gagai in the shit pretty much every other weekend & was sacked/shown the door discretely?

Overall, iteresting read but there's a lot more to the Gagai v Copley thing then what you've said.

TBH i thought Copley was going to be a star too. How wrong I was.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,474
Your point about u20's is exactly what Gus said. It is too big a step up to first grade and as soon as he took over players started getting rotated up through the 20's into NSW cup and into first grade. Lo and behold we actually have seen some juniors come through who have been able to make the step up into first grade.

Thanks for your brilliant commentary. I think it is clear that Hook's limitations mean we need to move on, but I want no part of the 'Gus out" campaign. He makes mistakes. Bennett makes mistakes, Paul White makes mistakes. It would be crazy to punt somebody with his experience with all the good things we are seeing. One bad year in first grade (I'm prepared to say it is bad year after last week. We have stagnated) is no reason to overturn the whole administration. I don't think people understand just how bad the club was when Gus joined. I read people saying "Manly turned it around in one year and so did Canberra'. Really? Canberra turned it around in a year? What about Manly last year?

Success takes time to build and if we get the right coach, we can still win a premiership in the next few years.

I can live wit Gus making mistakes, that is not the issue for me. The issue is it seems Gus is refusing to address his mistakes and instead giving out excuses. I will not accept excuses just because its Phil Gould giving them. Admit Griffin isn't getting the job done and fix it before next season, if he wont do that he should be fired or step down. Its a results driven business and he got a pass for our poor results for good reasons over the last five years but this year there are no good reasons why our results are so poor, even Gus cannot talk his away around that. Perform or f**k off should be the mantra. How long will we have a squad as talented as we have now? The salary cap is designed to stop teams stockpiling talent, our premiership window with this squad is right now and it wont stay open for long, we cannot waste it due to incompetence, that is unforgiveable.

If Manly stay competitive they have done much better than us tbh. Ive bagged them a lot for signing Barret but they are playing much better footy than us, much better. The west tigers and knights are performing better against the top 8 teams this year than we are, we are that bad.
 
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Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,863
I can live wit Gus making mistakes, that is not the issue for me. The issue is it seems Gus is refusing to address his mistakes and instead giving out excuses. I will not accept excuses just because its Phil Gould giving them. Admit Griffin isn't getting the job done and fix it before next season, if he wont do that he should be fired or step down. Its a results driven business and he got a pass for our poor results for good reasons over the last five years but this year there are no good reasons why our results are so poor, even Gus cannot talk his away around that. Perform or f**k off should be the mantra. How long will we have a squad as talented as we have now? The salary cap is designed to stop teams stockpiling talent, our premiership window with this squad is right now and it wont stay open for long, we cannot waste it due to incompetence, that is unforgiveable.

If Manly stay competitive they have done much better than us tbh. Ive bagged them a lot for signing Barret but they are playing much better footy than us, much better. The west tigers and knights are performing better against the top 8 teams this year than we are, we are that bad.
I think this decision will define his second reign. I don't believe he has done anything wrong by allowing Hook to continue thus far. The last few months and our track record against the best teams has probably indicated to anybody awake that we have a bit of a problem. In spite of what anybody says, you don't sack coaches after a bad run of a few games, that will just lead to a downward spiral. Once it becomes clear there is a pattern and we are unlikely to get out of that pattern, then fair enough.

A good coach would be salivating at the thought of having a Cleary, Edwards, Moylan spine. They will also be thanking Hook for the great work he has done in bringing through JFH, Edwards, CNH and Kikau. It's not all bad and it's a shame Hook doesn't have the nous to turn that spine into champions.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,976
Wasn't Gagai in the shit pretty much every other weekend & was sacked/shown the door discretely?

Overall, iteresting read but there's a lot more to the Gagai v Copley thing then what you've said.

TBH i thought Copley was going to be a star too. How wrong I was.

From what we know, Hook set Gagai a really stupid goal with his weight and since he couldn't meet it, he was punished. The two of them were never on the same page and after multiple incidents he was shown the door half-way through the year.

Of course as luck would have it, the Broncos would suffer more injuries in the backs and when we really needed a player like Gagai he was off in Newcastle helping them move forward as a club.

What the Gagai v Copley selection taught us is that...

1. Hook is a disciplinarian and won't take any excuses. While this isn't necessarily bad, there are times where he'll put those standards above the team and he'll punish players for things other clubs wouldn't be that fussed over.

2. Hook would rather the 'power' player than the 'skillful' player. Gagai was faster, more agile and more co-ordinated than Copley, but since Dale was better out of dummy half that was the end of the section as far as Hook was concerned.

The other problem was as well is that once he got rid of Gagai, Hook didn't think to sign anyone as a replacement. Even though the club had effectively lost Yow Yeh, Beale and Gagai in one season, Hook never thought to hit the open market and bring in a few NYC prospects or talented NSW Cup prospects to help fill the gap. Instead, the club brought in Denan Kemp from the Steelers (where he never played any first grade) and the QRL players I mentioned before like Delroy Berryman & Nathaniel Barnes.

One point I forgot about, and it's perhaps the most relevant pattern so far is his inability to teach seniority in his team. There were so many occasions under Hook where the game would get down to the wire, and the Broncos would just lose their heads and let the opposition squeak out an undeserved win. The club just didn't have the players to lift the team in those moments and guys like Hoffman, Wallace, McCullough, Thaiday etc. would go missing.

I look at a player like Matt Moylan, one of the clutchest players in the competition and it boggles my mind how he's yet to improve since 2014. Outside of that win against Canberra, Matt has yet to show the consistensy needed to be considered an elite player and it's so frustrating to see him make such silly mistakes like that long ball to nobody against Souths which effectively changed the course of the entire match. The same thing can be said about Mez and Tamou who have yet to find the consistency needed to really lead a forward pack around.
 

OldPanther

Coach
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From what we know, Hook set Gagai a really stupid goal with his weight and since he couldn't meet it, he was punished. The two of them were never on the same page and after multiple incidents he was shown the door half-way through the year.

Of course as luck would have it, the Broncos would suffer more injuries in the backs and when we really needed a player like Gagai he was off in Newcastle helping them move forward as a club.

What the Gagai v Copley selection taught us is that...

1. Hook is a disciplinarian and won't take any excuses. While this isn't necessarily bad, there are times where he'll put those standards above the team and he'll punish players for things other clubs wouldn't be that fussed over.

2. Hook would rather the 'power' player than the 'skillful' player. Gagai was faster, more agile and more co-ordinated than Copley, but since Dale was better out of dummy half that was the end of the section as far as Hook was concerned.

The other problem was as well is that once he got rid of Gagai, Hook didn't think to sign anyone as a replacement. Even though the club had effectively lost Yow Yeh, Beale and Gagai in one season, Hook never thought to hit the open market and bring in a few NYC prospects or talented NSW Cup prospects to help fill the gap. Instead, the club brought in Denan Kemp from the Steelers (where he never played any first grade) and the QRL players I mentioned before like Delroy Berryman & Nathaniel Barnes.

One point I forgot about, and it's perhaps the most relevant pattern so far is his inability to teach seniority in his team. There were so many occasions under Hook where the game would get down to the wire, and the Broncos would just lose their heads and let the opposition squeak out an undeserved win. The club just didn't have the players to lift the team in those moments and guys like Hoffman, Wallace, McCullough, Thaiday etc. would go missing.

I look at a player like Matt Moylan, one of the clutchest players in the competition and it boggles my mind how he's yet to improve since 2014. Outside of that win against Canberra, Matt has yet to show the consistensy needed to be considered an elite player and it's so frustrating to see him make such silly mistakes like that long ball to nobody against Souths which effectively changed the course of the entire match. The same thing can be said about Mez and Tamou who have yet to find the consistency needed to really lead a forward pack around.

I agree with everything there except the part about Moylan. In 4 games he has 9 try involvements, some line break assists, linebreaks etc. Everyone throws 1 bad pass from time to time.
 

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