Vs Rabbits Rd 24

[Penrose Warrior]

Press conference recap. Kearney and Hoffman in attendance.
SK: we've got some players playing tonight who arent yet ready for NRL firstgrade. We need to recruit players who are ready to get the job done and put a program in place to ensure those players who aren't ready get up to speed. Foran has a back injury and Lillyman has a torn bicep.

Every one of those players, minus Satae, has been in FG for at least 2 seasons. Poor excuse.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

Every one of those players, minus Satae, has been in FG for at least 2 seasons. Poor excuse.

It's pathetic from Kearney, his job as a coach is to get these guys ready to play, they only have to fill certain little roles out there to be of benefit to the team. What he should be saying is that those guys are up against it because they don't have a coach that is First grade standard

Gubb this week comes out and says he is glad he isn't staying around because he can see where the place is going, and I can understand that. Imagine being some of these guys around the fringes, they hear the main guys aren't trying, the next week they hear that he would love to make changes but the guys below aren't good enough, then guys get called out publicly as being reserve grade standard, must create a really positive vibe around the club and be great for morale

And if they don't recruit anyone what happens then ? Already plenty of first grade standard leaving and not much coming in

I didn't see the match, only 10mins of it, but it amazes me how long it takes Luke to get to dummy half for the majority of the sets

 

[Philip_Smith007]

Press conference recap. Kearney and Hoffman in attendance.
SK: we've got some players playing tonight who arent yet ready for NRL firstgrade. We need to recruit players who are ready to get the job done and put a program in place to ensure those players who aren't ready get up to speed. Foran has a back injury and Lillyman has a torn bicep.

He also forgot to mention there is a coach not quite up to NRL level out there.
Edit: needed to refresh page before repeating Beavers statement!

 

[Cold Roses]

Every one of those players, minus Satae, has been in FG for at least 2 seasons. Poor excuse.

We've also been crap for those 2 seasons. And more. Sometimes 2 = 2 does equal 4. It's by no means the only reason. But it's a big one. Do you genuinely believe Kata, Afoa and Tevaga are first grade standard?

 

[Cold Roses]

It's a cop out, Hoffmans defence is terrible.
Foran needs a walking frame after 50mins.
Kata has over 50games to his name, still no idea how to pass or what to do on defence.
Luke improved tonight but still well below his best.

I'll pose the same question then. Do you honestly believe that the guys I mentioned are first grade standard? And none of the old 'it's his job to get them ready', because that's a cop out. First Grade isn't the place to be grooming guys. They need to have certain skills at a certain level before they come into an Nrl squad.

Hoffman. Agree. He's been terrible. I'd argue that a lot of it is overcompensating for the fact that he doesn't trust the guys around him to be making their tackles. Does that make it right? No. Absolutely not. But I think he'd be a lot better if he wasn't feeling like he has to babysit everyone around him.

Kata. No argument from me. I'd drop him to reserves for the next 2 games, and the first half of next year.

Foran. One of the biggest disappointments I can ever remember in a Warriors jersey. And that's saying something. That's squarely on Kearney that he keeps playing someone who is so obviously broken.

Luke. Just f**k off now and I wouldn't care.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

We've also been crap for those 2 seasons. And more. Sometimes 2 = 2 does equal 4. It's by no means the only reason. But it's a big one. Do you genuinely believe Kata, Afoa and Tevaga are first grade standard?

With the right coaching, absolutely

If we want the nose recent case in point, Lolohea was getting worse by the week at the Warriors and not NRL standard, get him under Ivan and week by week you see improvement and touches that prove he belongs at that level

 

[Cold Roses]

With the right coaching, absolutely

If we want the nose recent case in point, Lolohea was getting worse by the week at the Warriors and not NRL standard, get him under Ivan and week by week you see improvement and touches that prove he belongs at that level

This scenario is nothing we haven't seen time and time again though. Young guy leaves the comfort of home in Auckland, gets in a system where the majority of the players around him have better core skills from a young age, and more importantly know how to compete! Sink or swim time. In Auckland it's 'sweet bro' i get free Wendy's cos they know who i am! That sort of high standards competitive culture hasn't been seen at Penrose for a long time, if arguably ever. It's not just a coach problem, its a club problem. My argument is that is exactly what Kearney is trying to instill at the moment. It's not a magic wand overnight process.

Good on Lolohea. He's showing improvement. However i'd happily swap almost any of those young inexperienced guys at the Tigers for Kata, Afoa, Tavaga in a heartbeat. They might not be world beaters, but they want it more than our guys do. And as a group, they benefit from having a better base of coaching from well before they got to First grade.

 

[JJ]

If we are honest the development of players and the club has been mismanaged

In addition to some players not being first grade standard the coach patently isn't

Alexander is right, completion rates are good but usually good teams combine that with some good attack and a sound defence, zee fundamentally lack both

 

[Philip_Smith007]

I'll pose the same question then. Do you honestly believe that the guys I mentioned are first grade standard? And none of the old 'it's his job to get them ready', because that's a cop out. First Grade isn't the place to be grooming guys. They need to have certain skills at a certain level before they come into an Nrl squad.

Hoffman. Agree. He's been terrible. I'd argue that a lot of it is overcompensating for the fact that he doesn't trust the guys around him to be making their tackles. Does that make it right? No. Absolutely not. But I think he'd be a lot better if he wasn't feeling like he has to babysit everyone around him.

Kata. No argument from me. I'd drop him to reserves for the next 2 games, and the first half of next year.

Foran. One of the biggest disappointments I can ever remember in a Warriors jersey. And that's saying something. That's squarely on Kearney that he keeps playing someone who is so obviously broken.

Luke. Just f**k off now and I wouldn't care.

Hoff is standing next to (and to close too) Mannering, who he does not need to baby sit.

When it comes to standards, they aren't up to it, but suspect if we had Bellamy he would make them like he does with many who have come from NZ upbringing of weaker competition.

Agree with the comfort these guys may feel, but this must be more present in union players in NZ but can still build a good culture.

 

[Cloudsurfer]

Hogg is standing next to (and to close too) Mannering, who he does not need to baby sit.

When it comes to standards, they aren't up to it, but suspect if we had Bellamy he would make them like he does with many who have come from NZ upbringing of weaker competition.

Agree with the comfort these guys may feel, but this must be more present in union players in NZ but can still build a good culture.

Bellamy gets his kiwi boys BEFORE they've built bad habits - bit different to inheriting a bunch that already have them. Comfort and complacency don't exist in RU at the higher level because there's always someone to take your place, unlike RL here.

 

[Cold Roses]

Hogg is standing next to (and to close too) Mannering, who he does not need to baby sit.

Agree. On that particular occasion from last week? it was pretty inexcusable. Largely though he has to deal with Kata, and either an inexperienced half or a broken one (Foran).

Agree with the comfort these guys may feel, but this must be more present in union players in NZ but can still build a good culture

Again, I think it's more of a case of the competitiveness of the younger grades rather than comfort as such. It a lot more present in NZ junior rugby, much like it is with Junior League in Australia. Nothing like that exists in League comps in NZ.

When it comes to standards, they aren't up to it, but suspect if we had Bellamy he would make them like he does with many who have come from NZ upbringing of weaker competition.

Very possibly. In all honesty I don't believe he could achieve it in the same timeframe that Kearney has had so far though. We may have had a couple more wins on the board, but the underlying problems would still be a work in progress.

 

[Cold Roses]

If we are honest the development of players and the club has been mismanaged

No question in my mind. It's been an ongoing problem for years now.

In addition to some players not being first grade standard the coach patently isn't

He gets one more year from me before I get on the bandwagon.

Alexander is right, completion rates are good but usually good teams combine that with some good attack and a sound defence, zee fundamentally lack both

He's dead right. (for once) But it's quite an ask to get all three working in perfect tandem in the space of one season.

The defence is the biggest issue for me. If we can get that right next year then we're looking up.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

I'll pose the same question then. Do you honestly believe that the guys I mentioned are first grade standard? And none of the old 'it's his job to get them ready', because that's a cop out. First Grade isn't the place to be grooming guys. They need to have certain skills at a certain level before they come into an Nrl squad.

Hoffman. Agree. He's been terrible. I'd argue that a lot of it is overcompensating for the fact that he doesn't trust the guys around him to be making their tackles. Does that make it right? No. Absolutely not. But I think he'd be a lot better if he wasn't feeling like he has to babysit everyone around him.

Kata. No argument from me. I'd drop him to reserves for the next 2 games, and the first half of next year.

Foran. One of the biggest disappointments I can ever remember in a Warriors jersey. And that's saying something. That's squarely on Kearney that he keeps playing someone who is so obviously broken.

Luke. Just f**k off now and I wouldn't care.

Yes I believe they are first grade standard, I believe McFadden was an extremely poor coach, but if we use Kata as an example, Kata was far more than adequate last season at first grade level and showed huge gains from week 1 to week 26. Under Kearney now, I'd struggle to keep him in the side. We extend that out, Fusitua is another guy in that exact category, patches of absolute brilliance last season, awful this season. It isn't a cop out at all to say it's Kearneys job to get them ready, he has had more than enough time to improve basics in every single player in that squad, and as a collective, I'm not sure you could find more than 1-2 players that have improved over the course of the season. Daniel Anderson came in, and he made them carry around balls non stop, only a small simple thing, but made a difference. From the 1st training session, he started from scratch, teaching them how to pass and catch the ball correctly. May sound like stupid, simple things, but they improved every single player in that squad, and in the same time frame Kearney had, with a side he hadn't handpicked which is the other line trotted out about Kearney a lot, every player improved and the Warriors soared up the ladder

I can agree to a certain extent about not coming through a better development system etc, NZ junior game based on power and running over people compared to Aussie being based on skill. but some of the key players in the side have been through that, RTS, Foran, Luke to name a few, and they are a shadow of themselves now, and the 2 mentioned last are far more of the problem than guys like Afoa and Tevega. There is more than enough experience in that side to work together to cover up the new guys

The Warriors have put themselves between a rock and a hard place at the moment, and they can't win. They have sacked so many coaches that sacking another is an extremely poor look, but for many people also it is plainly obvious that Kearney is not an NRL standard coach. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong on that but it's not a statement I'm worried about making

Mentioned in another topic a few weeks back about watching a game with Frank Endacott a few weeks back, and he said the people they have looking for talent now have absolutely no idea compared to Ackland and can't argue with that when the 20s results are looked at. Heard on the radio today that Iro said to someone that in the early days of 20s, the TV exposure was a huge draw card that league had, now that union have televised school games it's harder to get guys across and I do see some merit in that

 

[Cold Roses]

Yes I believe they are first grade standard, I believe McFadden was an extremely poor coach, but if we use Kata as an example, Kata was far more than adequate last season at first grade level and showed huge gains from week 1 to week 26. Under Kearney now, I'd struggle to keep him in the side. We extend that out, Fusitua is another guy in that exact category, patches of absolute brilliance last season, awful this season. It isn't a cop out at all to say it's Kearneys job to get them ready, he has had more than enough time to improve basics in every single player in that squad, and as a collective, I'm not sure you could find more than 1-2 players that have improved over the course of the season. Daniel Anderson came in, and he made them carry around balls non stop, only a small simple thing, but made a difference. From the 1st training session, he started from scratch, teaching them how to pass and catch the ball correctly. May sound like stupid, simple things, but they improved every single player in that squad, and in the same time frame Kearney had, with a side he hadn't handpicked which is the other line trotted out about Kearney a lot, every player improved and the Warriors soared up the ladder

I can agree to a certain extent about not coming through a better development system etc, NZ junior game based on power and running over people compared to Aussie being based on skill. but some of the key players in the side have been through that, RTS, Foran, Luke to name a few, and they are a shadow of themselves now, and the 2 mentioned last are far more of the problem than guys like Afoa and Tevega. There is more than enough experience in that side to work together to cover up the new guys

The Warriors have put themselves between a rock and a hard place at the moment, and they can't win. They have sacked so many coaches that sacking another is an extremely poor look, but for many people also it is plainly obvious that Kearney is not an NRL standard coach. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong on that but it's not a statement I'm worried about making

Mentioned in another topic a few weeks back about watching a game with Frank Endacott a few weeks back, and he said the people they have looking for talent now have absolutely no idea compared to Ackland and can't argue with that when the 20s results are looked at. Heard on the radio today that Iro said to someone that in the early days of 20s, the TV exposure was a huge draw card that league had, now that union have televised school games it's harder to get guys across and I do see some merit in that

The Daniel Anderson story is well known. Gets repeated a lot. It worked at the time. The difference between the NRL then and the NRL 15 years later though is pretty significant. Preparations, levels of professionalism, defensive styles and structures, everything is light years ahead of where it was then. There's a lot to be said for stripping things back to basics, and maybe it would work for this bunch, but it's also somewhat idealistic to think it's going to turn them into The Storm or The All Blacks in a short space of time. The game has moved on too much since then for a short and intensive program to be that effective. I'd be very surprised if ball drills and basic skills drills weren't a part of any side in the NRL anyway, including The Warriors. It just comes back to junior development. Usually pre NRL. Again. That shit needs to be learned before NRL level in this day and age. Everyone and everything is too big and too fast and too strong. It's pretty obvious that guys like Afoa and Lisone are out of their depth defending at NRL level.

RTS, Foran, Luke. It always comes back to this, but really, how much of it is down to Kearney, and how much of it is the reality that we just got those players at the wrong time. Foran is busted. That's obvious. The argument all year has been that Kearney should be playing a younger guy to develop for the future and f**k Foran off to reserves. But in a side short on confidence and very short on leadership, would most other coaches in the NRL do any different? An experienced half or a reserve grade one with less than a handful of games under his belt? Especially since Johnson went down injured. Luke just isn't the player he was. That doesn't get coached out of you by one new coach in 10 months. That comes from inside. Besides, these problems, again, pre date Kearney. Something that gets conveniently forgotten. RTS I'd argue is no better or no worse than he was last year as well. He was hardly setting the world on fire at the start of the season. He was running big meters then, he's running big meters now. It is possible that he just actually isn't quite as world class as everyone thought he was. Not James Tedesco carrying the Tigers level anyway. Just very good.

The story you tell about Endacott. Again, that is just symptomatic of deeper problems within the club that have never been addressed properly. Elliott attempted to rectify things, but feathers got ruffled and not enough progress was made.

Like you said, they are between a rock and a hard place at the moment. There is no easy fix for it. Super coaches are few and far between. I don't actually think that Kearney will win us a premiership. But I do believe that he is the guy that is stripping things back to the point from which success can be built. Quick fixes aren't going to work.

The progress made in reducing error counts and retaining possession is no small achievement. It's scoffed at a lot around here, but that's a good foundation to build on. It's pretty obvious that some guys aren't up to the task of getting all the pieces of the puzzle into place straight away, and that's why next year will the true test of where we are at with Kearney.

 

[vvvrulz]

The progress made in reducing error counts and retaining possession is no small achievement. It's scoffed at a lot around here, but that's a good foundation to build on. It's pretty obvious that some guys aren't up to the task of getting all the pieces of the puzzle into place straight away, and that's why next year will the true test of where we are at with Kearney.

The problem with NRL stats, in general, is that they rarely tell a true story. A low error count and strong completion rate are of course excellent metrics, however, it is also utterly pointless when the 3-4 errors we make per game are on our own 20m line and lead directly to tries. We usually concede 2-3 tries per match off the back of a completely avoidable error, and that's often the game because we don't have the toughness or skill to fight back.

And secondly, what good is a solid completion rate if we don't score tries and usually don't even look like scoring them? We pick up most of our points in the first 10 minutes of each half and then clock off when it really matters. We need tries to wrap up a half before going into the sheds with our tails up, we need tries in the last 20 when the opponents are running red-hot. No point if we die with the football or directly hit the fullback. It's still a "finished" set.

There's no metric for the qualitative things that also matter out there; pride, passion, intent, of which there is none right now. We can compare our numbers to the Storm, but it takes something special to get through their defense and they're the masters at getting ahead and then shutting the opponents down. We get ahead and then bend right over and open up. Stats don't measure context.

I love your optimism, especially since you take the time to back it up. I hope you're right, I really do, but I'm just struggling to find any confidence in Kearney based on what I see out there.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

We've also been crap for those 2 seasons. And more. Sometimes 2 = 2 does equal 4. It's by no means the only reason. But it's a big one. Do you genuinely believe Kata, Afoa and Tevaga are first grade standard?

Yes/no/no - and that's in term of should be FG standard. Tevaga doesn't count, played F all first grade. Bunty isn't improving at all. He plays in the same position the coach did, shouldn't he be? And Kata was FG standard last year but has regressed ridiculously.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

It's pathetic from Kearney, his job as a coach is to get these guys ready to play, they only have to fill certain little roles out there to be of benefit to the team. What he should be saying is that those guys are up against it because they don't have a coach that is First grade standard

Gubb this week comes out and says he is glad he isn't staying around because he can see where the place is going, and I can understand that. Imagine being some of these guys around the fringes, they hear the main guys aren't trying, the next week they hear that he would love to make changes but the guys below aren't good enough, then guys get called out publicly as being reserve grade standard, must create a really positive vibe around the club and be great for morale

And if they don't recruit anyone what happens then ? Already plenty of first grade standard leaving and not much coming in

I didn't see the match, only 10mins of it, but it amazes me how long it takes Luke to get to dummy half for the majority of the sets

Great post, agree with it all. Ricky Stuart used to say the same thing, 'our guys aren't FG standard'. It's a cop out for shit coaching. Lucky for Sticky he got better recruits...we aren't. If our environment didn't suck, people might come. That's on you, coach Kearney. They see your 27% winning record. Trying to wash your hands of any blame by saying the players aren't up to it, then rubbishing a ressies side that puts in every week and gets results from a talented group.

And on Luke, I watched a whole game of that in Hamilton v the Dragons. It blew me away.

 

[jaseg]

Completion rate means nothing if you can't defend when you don't have the ball - we concede an average of over 4 tries a game despite our completion & possession numbers. That puts us just under the Titans as the 2nd worst defensive team in the game according to my numbers (and it's close) - and the Titans have been carrying 3 absolute speed bumps in their defensive line for most of the season (Elgey and the centres) along with significant injury tolls that have lasted the whole year, not just concentrated in the back end like us.

 

[Cold Roses]

I hope you're right, I really do, but I'm just struggling to find any confidence in Kearney based on what I see out there

I guess i'm just looking at things as pieces of a puzzle rather than isolated stats. He's broken a few things down, and is trying to rebuild them all to the point where completions, defence and offence all start to come together at once. I don't know if it's going to work either, and maybe never to the level it does for the Storm for example, but I can see some good coming of it. Hopefully to the point where the next guy can get a premiership out of it. He hasn't gone for the quick fix. And it may cost him in the short term, but also maybe not.

And I don't know if I'd call it optimism as much as a desperate need to believe that things are going to get better at some point.

 

[Cold Roses]

Yes/no/no - and that's in term of should be FG standard. Tevaga doesn't count, played F all first grade. Bunty isn't improving at all. He plays in the same position the coach did, shouldn't he be? And Kata was FG standard last year but has regressed ridiculously.

I don't consider any of them First Grade standard.

Kata, Junior Union, 2 years in NYC and then he gets a First Grade call up. Never learned the skills he needed. Some success in his second year, but he got found out by opposition coaches and players pretty quickly and has nothing to fall back on. Don't know whats wrong with him this year, but i doubt it's just coaching.

Afoa. NYC player mostly at prop for 2 years. Never learned to defend at a decent level. Got Elevated to First Grade level at second row, not middle forward late in the season last year. The results of his first full season are painfully obvious see. He's not up to it yet.

Tevaga. No disrepect, but he's an undersized tackle bot. I really hope he has some success, but if it's at lock, for us, we are in trouble.

That's some of our depth. That's a big part of why we are still struggling badly. Not the only reason. But a big part of it. You can only coach guys on an individual level so much throughout the season when they are playing catch up so badly.