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Widdop given a serve.

BrissyRedV

Bench
Messages
4,382
All you are doing is rationalizing.
There is no substance to what you say so do your best.
As for if we had a different captain - IN MY OPINION - we would have had more competition points and would have done better.
Soft draw is an absolute fact and if you want to drill down further, Widdop was the captain when we lost to Souths in the second round - watch the way he handled the last 10 minutes of that game..
He was the captain when we had our pants pulled down by Newcastle (twice).
The final embarrassment was the loss to Canterbury in the last round which was the cherry on top.
In all three examples, we had our season on the line.
A win in any one of those games would have seen us playing finals footy.
I'm sorry but I do not agree with your fluffy fan club love affair with Widdop.
So when you condescend to using words like "rubbish" it makes you look childish.
Of course I am rationalizing which is something you are failing to grasp. You're suggesting that the reason that we did not make the finals is because Widdop was captain and the way he played but in the big scheme, he was a major reason we were even in contention. The portion of the blame you are attributing to Widdop, when there are far more glaring issues with the side, is unrealistic and unfair. A different captain out of the 16 other players on the pitch would not have made a difference in any game this season. You put too much value in an on field captain.

Do you know what the top 4 teams have that we don't? It's multiple focal points in attack and good coaches. Storm have Bellamy, Smith, Cronk and Slater and a well developed system. Broncos Bennett, Hunt, Boyd, Nikorima and Milford. Roosters Robinson, Pearce and Keary. And we had what? Mary as coach, McGroan as 7. Widdop and the left side attack was the most potent of any side but there needs to be balance which we didn't have. So when put in perspective and looking at it holistically and as I have stated previously, there are other major issues that are to blame for the sides lacklustre performance with Widdops captaincy playing a minor role if any. But that's my opinion. You take it in or lump it. Matters not to me.
 
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Messages
2,866
Of course I am rationalizing which is something you are failing to grasp. You're suggesting that the reason that we did not make the finals is because Widdop was captain and the way he played but in the big scheme, he was a major reason we were even in contention. The portion of the blame you are attributing to Widdop, when there are far more glaring issues with the side, is unrealistic and unfair. A different captain out of the 16 other players on the pitch would not have made a difference in any game this season. You put too much value in an on field captain.

Do you what the top 4 teams have that we don't? It's multiple focal points in attack and good coaches. Storm have Bellamy, Smith, Cronk and Slater and a well developed system. Broncos Bennett, Hunt, Boyd, Nikorima and Milford. Roosters Robinson, Pearce and Keary. And we had what? Mary as coach, McGroan as 7. Widdop and the left side attack was the most potent of any side but there needs to be balance which we didn't have. So when put in perspective and looking at it holistically and as I have stated previously, there are other major issues that are to blame for the sides lacklustre performance with Widdops captaincy playing a minor role if any. But that's my opinion. You take it in or lump it. Matters not to me.
Your latest diatribe just highlights the fact that you have not read or understood my posts.
I do not blame Widdop for not making the finals and all the other problems we have but he has to shoulder a portion of the responsibility, don't you think?
Let me remind you we finished 11th last year and 9th this year - with Widdop as captain.
When it suits you, I "put too much value on an on field captain..." + "Widdop's captaincy playing a minor role if any..." but these comments can't be taken seriously.
I'm sure Bellamy, Bennet and Robinson would not agree with you.
I recognize Widdop as a fine player (already have) but my focus in this discussion was his ability as a team leader/captain and especially closing out tight games.
I also highlighted critical games where we missed out on competition points and contributed to our final position on the table.
I hope you can grasp my position and the supporting arguments.
For the record, you really annoyed me when you used the word "Rubbish".
 

BrissyRedV

Bench
Messages
4,382
I do not blame Widdop for not making the finals and all the other problems we have but he has to shoulder a portion of the responsibility, don't you think?

It certainly sounds that way in your previous posts hence my stance. All players deserve a portion of the blame but in proportion to their contribution. As I have said, without him we would not have been in the position to make the finals and if you would recall, he closed out the Panthers game well. He also led the comeback against the Knights in round 16 as well.
Let me remind you we finished 11th last year and 9th this year - with Widdop as captain.
I know perfectly well where we finished. But attributing those finishing places is hardly all the fault of the captain when there are other issues at hand. The Bulldogs finished 11th this year. Is that because Graham is a poor captain? Had Tyson or Flo or any other member of our team been captain, would we have finished higher? IMO no.

For the record, you really annoyed me when you used the word "Rubbish".
For the record, I call things how I see it, and the particular argument you made was rubbish.
 
Messages
2,866
It certainly sounds that way in your previous posts hence my stance. All players deserve a portion of the blame but in proportion to their contribution. As I have said, without him we would not have been in the position to make the finals and if you would recall, he closed out the Panthers game well. He also led the comeback against the Knights in round 16 as well.

I know perfectly well where we finished. But attributing those finishing places is hardly all the fault of the captain when there are other issues at hand. The Bulldogs finished 11th this year. Is that because Graham is a poor captain? Had Tyson or Flo or any other member of our team been captain, would we have finished higher? IMO no.


For the record, I call things how I see it, and the particular argument you made was rubbish.
I can't believe you highlighted the first Newcastle game.
First half was an embarrassment and Joel Thompson (not Widdop) was the one that fired them up in the sheds at half time and then in the second half on the field.
But we were playing the bottom placed team! do you really want to credit Widdop with that win?
What about second time Newcastle beat us???
Stop comparing with other clubs and focus on our club and our performances.
You can't seriously compare Canterbury to us can you??
The have played finals footy every single year for the last 6 years until 2017.
We on the other hand have played finals only once during the same period.
What makes your comparison even sillier is that this year, whilst Canterbury finished 11th - they beat us twice!
If Joel Thompson was the captain or even Nightingale, we would have done better.
You state the obvious, all players deserve a portion of the blame however through the ages, the Coach and the Captain shoulder a much larger proportion when it comes to results.
So at least accept that Widdop must take some of the responsibility for the results.
 

Carlton

Juniors
Messages
1,223
I can't believe you highlighted the first Newcastle game.
First half was an embarrassment and Joel Thompson (not Widdop) was the one that fired them up in the sheds at half time and then in the second half on the field.
But we were playing the bottom placed team! do you really want to credit Widdop with that win?
What about second time Newcastle beat us???
Stop comparing with other clubs and focus on our club and our performances.
You can't seriously compare Canterbury to us can you??
The have played finals footy every single year for the last 6 years until 2017.
We on the other hand have played finals only once during the same period.
What makes your comparison even sillier is that this year, whilst Canterbury finished 11th - they beat us twice!
If Joel Thompson was the captain or even Nightingale, we would have done better.
You state the obvious, all players deserve a portion of the blame however through the ages, the Coach and the Captain shoulder a much larger proportion when it comes to results.
So at least accept that Widdop must take some of the responsibility for the results.

I have been a big critic of Widdops and at times overly harsh but part of the reason for that has been my over reaction to the amount of leeway some fans give him when he has significant deficiencies in his game for the role he is playing.

I do not dislike Widdop as a person, I think he has some very good skills and I think he plays with effort. I don't think he is a good captain or game manager/playmaker. He is in the role in the team that should be directing them around the park and making the decisions that manage the game to their advantage. He does not do this.

I don't care how many LB assists and Try assists the stats credit him with, the thing that I am worried about is the number of missed opportunities that the stats don't report. Many of the assists were just because he was in the play and were not "created" by him at all.

As I've said before I'd like to see him play a role similar to when he was with Melbourne and stop trying to be the main man and playing halfback from 5/8.
 

BrissyRedV

Bench
Messages
4,382
First half was an embarrassment and Joel Thompson (not Widdop) was the one that fired them up in the sheds at half time and then in the second half on the field.
But we were playing the bottom placed team! do you really want to credit Widdop with that win?
Come on now, were you present in the sheds at half time? Do you honestly think Widdop had nothing to say or was not a big part of that comeback? Watch the replay again and come back to us because Widdop along with Thompson are the reasons we came back. Sure that first half was embarrassing but it is not like Newcastle had not ambushed other teams as well including the Storm and Sharks forcing them to come from behind. Newcastle were resurgent this year.
The have played finals footy every single year for the last 6 years until 2017.
We on the other hand have played finals only once during the same period.
What makes your comparison even sillier is that this year, whilst Canterbury finished 11th - they beat us twice!
It's a perfect comparison. A side in decline and they have played a boring, lacklustre style of footy for the past couple of years.

If Joel Thompson was the captain or even Nightingale, we would have done better.
I disagree. They were present during those games and are part of the leadership group. But anyway, we are going around in circles. I do not believe his captaincy played a major role in final position and you do.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,691
As I've said before I'd like to see him play a role similar to when he was with Melbourne and stop trying to be the main man and playing halfback from 5/8.

I believe this was due to our deficiencies in other positions. Additionally, the structures we used were too 1 dimensional - Duges and to a degree Aitken stifled the attack and limited our options for set plays. If you look at the games, we played exactly the same set play nearly every game and rarely deviated from it. Once it started, you knew where it was heading. And primarily down the left edge - placing even more responsibility on him. And if an alternative was required, it was up to him and him alone to create. It's just too much for 1 person to take on. He needs to be free to play a more natural game.

Additionally how many times did he clean up out the back due to bad positioning? Dufty needs work on his defensive positioning and to a lesser degree Duges. He was often in the back cleaning up and defending.

I think he is taking on too much because he is forced to due to poor coaching and selections. Hopefully Hunt makes a huge impact but work needs to be done with the fullback and hooker roles too. There needs to be more variation.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,691
It's a perfect comparison. A side in decline and they have played a boring, lacklustre style of footy for the past couple of years.

So if a poor season boils down to the coach and the captain taking ultimate responsibility, and the bulldogs finished below us, why are we calling for Des to coach us and Graham to lead us? Am I living in some parallel universe or something? Stranger Things Upside Down?
 

BrissyRedV

Bench
Messages
4,382
So if a poor season boils down to the coach and the captain taking ultimate responsibility, and the bulldogs finished below us, why are we calling for Des to coach us and Graham to lead us? Am I living in some parallel universe or something? Stranger Things Upside Down?
Not me should be talking to about this one. I am of the belief that our poor season boils down to our coach, his game plans, selections and use of interchange. It seems some others blame it on Widdop and his captaincy hence the comparison to the Grubs.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,691
Not me should be talking to about this one. I am of the belief that our poor season boils down to our coach, his game plans, selections and use of interchange. It seems some others blame it on Widdop and his captaincy hence the comparison to the Grubs.
Yeah I know mate - just replying to your post as yours was the last in the thread. I'm just trying to understand some of the logic.
 

Carlton

Juniors
Messages
1,223
I believe this was due to our deficiencies in other positions. Additionally, the structures we used were too 1 dimensional - Duges and to a degree Aitken stifled the attack and limited our options for set plays. If you look at the games, we played exactly the same set play nearly every game and rarely deviated from it. Once it started, you knew where it was heading. And primarily down the left edge - placing even more responsibility on him. And if an alternative was required, it was up to him and him alone to create. It's just too much for 1 person to take on. He needs to be free to play a more natural game.

Additionally how many times did he clean up out the back due to bad positioning? Dufty needs work on his defensive positioning and to a lesser degree Duges. He was often in the back cleaning up and defending.

I think he is taking on too much because he is forced to due to poor coaching and selections. Hopefully Hunt makes a huge impact but work needs to be done with the fullback and hooker roles too. There needs to be more variation.

I think our biggest problem is the coach.
Next is the game management/playmaking.
Next is the captaincy.

To blame the other players in the team for poor game management/playmaking is not reasonable. This is the role Widdop supposedly wanted and has been given and has fallen short. We have had different "coaches" and playing rosters while Widdop has been at the club and the whole time game management/playmaking has been an issue. He has skills but this is not one of them and needs to be recognised.

Dugan's defense and positioning at the back was first class and he did not need Widdop covering for him.
 

Slippery Morris

First Grade
Messages
7,395
Surely it could not have been McCrone giving Widdop a serve, How would the reporter understand what he said anyway with his mouth guard on.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,691
I think our biggest problem is the coach.
Next is the game management/playmaking.
Next is the captaincy.

To blame the other players in the team for poor game management/playmaking is not reasonable. This is the role Widdop supposedly wanted and has been given and has fallen short. We have had different "coaches" and playing rosters while Widdop has been at the club and the whole time game management/playmaking has been an issue. He has skills but this is not one of them and needs to be recognised.

Dugan's defense and positioning at the back was first class and he did not need Widdop covering for him.

If you look at my post you will see that the first thing I stated was deficiencies in other positions. There's more than 1 play maker on the field and none of Widdops partners this year provided any viable alternative in attack or closing out the game. You have 2 play makers and a hooker who should be able to play a role here. However, we don't. It all falls to 1 player and based on that, our set moves are limited (and hence are only successful down the left side of the field). So based on that I think it is reasonable to blame other players for poor game management and playmaking when none of them have the skills to contribute to this aspect of the game and fail to compliment Widdop. Melbourne are good because they have 4 players who contribute to the attack and are creative in this space. We have 1 who has to do everything. That's why we are limited in attack - we have 1 option and we have to structure our plays around that option. It severely decreases our potency and play options.

I see Hunt relieving some of this pressure and down the line hopefully Dufty finds more confidence and can also contribute more in attack. This should free Widdop up to play a more natural game.

Additionally I stand by my point about defence. I said Dugan to a lesser degree because I don't agree his defence is world class. It's very good, don't get me wrong. But he has been caught out at times and has been covered by other players.

Actually, early in the year Widdop did close out games and he was attempting to again towards the end of the year. Was it the Souths game where we were keeping them down their end towards the end of the game? The skills are there, he just needs the support on field to be able to work it and sustain it.
 
Messages
2,866
I have been a big critic of Widdops and at times overly harsh but part of the reason for that has been my over reaction to the amount of leeway some fans give him when he has significant deficiencies in his game for the role he is playing.

I do not dislike Widdop as a person, I think he has some very good skills and I think he plays with effort. I don't think he is a good captain or game manager/playmaker. He is in the role in the team that should be directing them around the park and making the decisions that manage the game to their advantage. He does not do this.

I don't care how many LB assists and Try assists the stats credit him with, the thing that I am worried about is the number of missed opportunities that the stats don't report. Many of the assists were just because he was in the play and were not "created" by him at all.

As I've said before I'd like to see him play a role similar to when he was with Melbourne and stop trying to be the main man and playing halfback from 5/8.
Well summarized
It's what I have been unsuccessfully trying to convey to Brissy Red V
 
Messages
2,866
Come on now, were you present in the sheds at half time? Do you honestly think Widdop had nothing to say or was not a big part of that comeback? Watch the replay again and come back to us because Widdop along with Thompson are the reasons we came back. Sure that first half was embarrassing but it is not like Newcastle had not ambushed other teams as well including the Storm and Sharks forcing them to come from behind. Newcastle were resurgent this year.

It's a perfect comparison. A side in decline and they have played a boring, lacklustre style of footy for the past couple of years.


I disagree. They were present during those games and are part of the leadership group. But anyway, we are going around in circles. I do not believe his captaincy played a major role in final position and you do.
At this point it is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.
No more time to waste.
All the best.
 
Messages
2,866
If you look at my post you will see that the first thing I stated was deficiencies in other positions. There's more than 1 play maker on the field and none of Widdops partners this year provided any viable alternative in attack or closing out the game. You have 2 play makers and a hooker who should be able to play a role here. However, we don't. It all falls to 1 player and based on that, our set moves are limited (and hence are only successful down the left side of the field). So based on that I think it is reasonable to blame other players for poor game management and playmaking when none of them have the skills to contribute to this aspect of the game and fail to compliment Widdop. Melbourne are good because they have 4 players who contribute to the attack and are creative in this space. We have 1 who has to do everything. That's why we are limited in attack - we have 1 option and we have to structure our plays around that option. It severely decreases our potency and play options.

I see Hunt relieving some of this pressure and down the line hopefully Dufty finds more confidence and can also contribute more in attack. This should free Widdop up to play a more natural game.

Additionally I stand by my point about defence. I said Dugan to a lesser degree because I don't agree his defence is world class. It's very good, don't get me wrong. But he has been caught out at times and has been covered by other players.

Actually, early in the year Widdop did close out games and he was attempting to again towards the end of the year. Was it the Souths game where we were keeping them down their end towards the end of the game? The skills are there, he just needs the support on field to be able to work it and sustain it.
So if we take your arguments at face value, what happened in 2016 with Benji as hi partner?
McCrone was chosen to support Widdop's game because he felt more "comfortable" with him as halves partner.
I have nothing against Widdop, I think he's a great player but let's not sugar coat things.
Maybe Hunt will be his perfect foil. Let's see.
But for the time being, I still can't believe that our results are so bad.
He has to shoulder some of that responsibility together with McGregor.
 
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