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Wrestling thread

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
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89,712
In an attempt to slow down discussion of wrestling in the Rumours and Stuff thread I have introduced this wrestling thread into the forum. Consider this first post a chicken wing on all you merkins.

Anyway I found an interesting article (here) from 2014 that lingard will love, because it starts off implying the game hasn't changed since 1962. However among that bullshit designed to appeal to the Luddites, there are a few interesting quotes. There's even a quote from the Bern:

"This rule as it now operates, let me say once more, is the source of many of the modern game's ills: the obsession with possession and the consequent lack of variety in play, the deliberate penalties, the high tackling and, with it, the fierce wrestling for the ball.''

That criticism of the play-the-ball rule by renowned rugby league reporter Tom Goodman appeared in The Sydney Morning Herald on July 17, 1966, but he could just as easily have been writing about the game now.

Goodman's article and another on July 8, 1962, in which he bemoaned dummy half running by declaring the play-the-ball rule had "made the hookers the princes of the game", show there has been debate about the battle to control the ruck for more than 50 years.

The result has been constant rule changes favouring attacking teams, which have been countered by defensive techniques that gave rise to the grapple tackle, the crusher, the cannonball and lifting tackles such as the one that last month ended the career of 22-year-old Newcastle forward Alex McKinnon.

In response, the NRL announced this week that any tackler who lifts the ball carrier into a dangerous position would be charged by the match review committee, but many feel radical solutions are needed to make the game both safer and more entertaining.

There is also a belief that legislating changes that promote fast play-the-balls leads to a rise in injuries and penalties as attacking teams are encouraged to play "pump and dump" football.

With the most crucial element of the game now being the speed of the play-the-ball, former leading referee, administrator and match review chief Greg McCallum believes a reduction of the 10 metres that defences are required to get back would mean tacklers don't need to slow the play-the-ball.

Rugby league historian Sean Fagan has proposed allowing markers to no longer have to stand square as a way of discouraging the reliance on fast play-the-balls to make easy metres or draw a penalty for defenders being offside, while former Roosters chief executive Bernie Gurr believes "lifting should be eliminated" except in a "one-on-one tackle where the ball carrier is not taken beyond the horizontal".

Paul Broughton – the former player, coach and administrator acknowledged as one of the game's greatest innovators – called for "a complete medical examination" of the rules that Fagan says have turned the play-the-ball from "a means to safely and quickly restart the game after a tackle" into "the game itself".

Fagan said: "By the 1950s, American football found that their rule book had come to a point where it needed to be completely rewritten to reflect the sport that they were endeavouring to play, and to make it simpler to officiate and remove as many of the 'grey areas'."

EVOLUTION

The play-the-ball was introduced to rugby league in 1906 – the same year the number of players was reduced from 15 to 13 a side – by administrators in England, who Fagan said viewed it as a "lesser evil" to scrums and mauls.

With the game then played under a one metre rule, the six forwards from both teams would stand around the ruck in a "loosely formed scrum" that encouraged the ball to be passed out. Halfbacks would be positioned behind them like an NFL quarterback and both back lines would stand deep ready to attack as the rucks were contested.

In 1926, further changes were made permitting only the ball carrier, a dummy half and two markers from the opposing team to be in the ruck and, by 1966, all other players were required to stand a minimum of five yards (initially three yards) from the play the ball. By then defensive lines had become set as the attacking team was almost certain to retain possession and the game degenerated into "bash and barge" football.

The introduction of the four tackle rule in 1967, and then six tackles in 1971, was intended as a remedy but by 1993 gang tackling and unlimited interchange led to the 10 metre rule and with it the emphasis on controlling the speed of the play-the-ball as defences struggled to get back onside and attacking teams tried to take advantage or win a penalty from under pressure referees.

In the past decade, wrestling has become endemic as defenders firstly began "dancing" with the ball carrier to hold him on his feet and attacks countered with the "surrender" tackle, in which the ball carrier tried to get to the ground as soon as contact is made in order to effect a fast play the ball.

"The defenders and ball carrier are conducting a private war, with the defensive unit specifically holding," Broughton said. "Attack counters this with the surrender tackle and this is then countered by the grapple, crusher and chicken wing – all to punish the defender for diving at the ground."

McCallum said he could not recall wrestling being an issue when he refereed in the 1980s and 1990s.

"There was holding down at the play-the-ball but that is completely different to applying holds and pressure," he said. "It was probably 2006 that it started and we on the match review committee raised it with the NRL. We got on top of the grappling but it went just progressively around the whole body to the point now where players are really being put at risk."

OTHER SPORTS

Broughton, who along with Jack Gibson was the first coach to borrow ideas from NFL in the 1970s, said American football and rugby league had both grown out of rugby union and were continuing to evolve.

"The NFL and the NRL change their laws constantly, and in most cases for valid reasons," he said. "The changes are driven by player safety due mainly to a critical media and the fans who drive the need for changes. The laws of these games bear little resemblance to those of their founding fathers."

As a result, the NFL has dealt with many of the issues being faced by the NRL and a career-ending cervical spinal fracture suffered by Buffalo Bills tight end Kevin Everett in 2007, who began walking 10 months later, sparked similar debate about rule changes as the injury to McKinnon in a three-man tackle.

The most significant was the banning of the "wedge", a manoeuvre in which three players form a blocking triangle to shepherd the kick returner from defenders. Under the rule change, no more than two attacking players could line up shoulder to shoulder to lead blocking.

Gurr, who has a website titled ''Thinking Rugby League'', said: "The current trend is where 2 tacklers are holding an attacking player and [a] third defender comes in and lifts the leg. This immediately has a pivot effect where the ball carrier can be very quickly tipped into a dangerous position. This action by the 'third man in' needs to be eliminated".

SOLUTIONS

There has been a 300 per cent increase in lifting tackles from 2012, with Sportsdata statistics predicting the number to rise from 45 to 120 this season based on 29 incidents in 48 matches so far. In contrast, there has only been seven penalties for dangerous throws in the 99-game history of State of Origin.

Some believe that is partly due to the third defender being banned from tackling below the knee this season in a bid to eradicate the "cannonball" tackle, as well as the ball carrier trying to "spear in" to effect a quick play the ball.

"The 10 metre rule is counterproductive for what the game is about," McCallum said. "I think it has had a more negative impact and it would be better if defences had to get back five metres or seven metres.

"If you go back to the 1990s, there wasn't a real need for defenders to restrain the ball carrier because they weren't trying to get up and play the ball fast anyway, but now you have got players who are turning in a tackle so they can get into a good position to play the ball before they get on the ground."

Fagan wrote a submission to the NRL in 2007 proposing the play-the-ball be "de-powered" in importance.

"If an attacking team chooses to play the ball before the markers have had a reasonable time to obtain their positions then they should lose any benefit from running at [an] offside defender," wrote Fagan, who also suggested an end to referees calling "dominant" or "surrender" rather than "held" after each tackle.

So what do youse think of that you f**ken dumb merkins? I am interested to hear your opinions.
 

Poupou Escobar

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I think McCallum was right about the 10 metre rule. It has outlived its usefulness, and is the reason for defences wrestling to protect the integrity of their line.

"The 10 metre rule is counterproductive for what the game is about," McCallum said. "I think it has had a more negative impact and it would be better if defences had to get back five metres or seven metres.

"If you go back to the 1990s, there wasn't a real need for defenders to restrain the ball carrier because they weren't trying to get up and play the ball fast anyway, but now you have got players who are turning in a tackle so they can get into a good position to play the ball before they get on the ground."

Fagan wrote a submission to the NRL in 2007 proposing the play-the-ball be "de-powered" in importance.

"If an attacking team chooses to play the ball before the markers have had a reasonable time to obtain their positions then they should lose any benefit from running at [an] offside defender," wrote Fagan, who also suggested an end to referees calling "dominant" or "surrender" rather than "held" after each tackle.
 

Gary Gutful

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52,606
I'm normally the one writing dumb unrelated shit but seeing as everyone else is doing it in this thread, I'm going to answer the question.

All of the suggestions by Fagan, McCallum and Gurr have merit to be honest. Anything that gives defences a bit more comfort that they aren't going to be completely steam rolled if they don't wrestle is a good thing.

McCallums is an easy one - just go back to a 5m rule.

Gurr's 'no lifting' could work but is a bit more complicated and adds another thing that refs have to worry about. There are some instances where a collision and tackle will force a player off the ground so it would be difficult at times to determine whether someone is actually lifting.

Fagan's 'markers not being square' could also work but equally it could be exploited by defences hanging around in the ruck and getting in the way. At least being square is something that is measurable.

Difficult one. I'm not sure a perfect solution exists but clearly the wrestle was much less of an issue under the 5m rule and that seems like the best way getting some balance back in the ruck.
 

Noise

Coach
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18,034
Why would the 5m rule suddenly stop the wrestle? If we went back to the 5m rule surely teams would still wrestle anyway. The ruck would still be slow compounded by defences who are already on top of the attacking team as soon as the ball is played. With defences already so good it would make scoring tries very difficult.

Oh and I was devastated when 'The Rockers' broke up
 
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I think that there should be more wrestling. Greco-Roman style. And that it should be performed by well oiled scantily clad players.
 

Obscene Assassin

First Grade
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6,215
I reckon that Kenny Omega is probably the best worker in the business right now but when you factor in longevity and the fact he's wrestled in more well-known promotions that AJ Styles should be considered the best wrestler in the current generation. Omega definitely has the ability to take the spot once AJ retires.

Will Ospreay is the king of flippy shit. His matches with Ricochet always get a pop from me.
 

Gary Gutful

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52,606
Why would the 5m rule suddenly stop the wrestle? If we went back to the 5m rule surely teams would still wrestle anyway. The ruck would still be slow compounded by defences who are already on top of the attacking team as soon as the ball is played. With defences already so good it would make scoring tries very difficult.

Oh and I was devastated when 'The Rockers' broke up
There is a wrestling industry attached to league because without it you can't survive. With the defence only 5m back it is not critical. Yes, it wouldn't suddenly turn the game into touch football but I would imagine that it would shift coaches priorities elsewhere and make the wrestle less of a feature.
 

Gary Gutful

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52,606
I reckon that Kenny Omega is probably the best worker in the business right now but when you factor in longevity and the fact he's wrestled in more well-known promotions that AJ Styles should be considered the best wrestler in the current generation. Omega definitely has the ability to take the spot once AJ retires.

Will Ospreay is the king of flippy shit. His matches with Ricochet always get a pop from me.
Sounds like you actually follow wrestling. Why?
 

strider

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To be serious for a moment ... i dont see wrestling ever going away - it is just a natural progression of coaches trying to hold down longer and get an advantage ... no one will stop trying to get an advantage all of a sudden
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
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89,712
There is a wrestling industry attached to league because without it you can't survive. With the defence only 5m back it is not critical. Yes, it wouldn't suddenly turn the game into touch football but I would imagine that it would shift coaches priorities elsewhere and make the wrestle less of a feature.
Exactly Gary. There's no problem with tries being harder to score. At least with less need for the wrestle we will see a faster game, even if defences are no less set on each play. The idea isn't to benefit the attack, but to reduce the wrestle. At the moment this is dictated by how long it takes the defensive line to get back into position. There is no reason to risk the penalty any longer than that, meaning the wrestle will be shorter under a five metre rule.

But there are other ways to promote attacking play. How about allowing teams knocking on the ball to recover it at the cost of a tackle (and wait for the defence to get set before playing it)? Or even changing the ruling for running into touch from the current handover/scrum to merely bringing it back in and playing the ball? These will make it less risky to shift the ball to the wingers, even inside your own 20.
 

Gary Gutful

Post Whore
Messages
52,606
To be serious for a moment ... i dont see wrestling ever going away - it is just a natural progression of coaches trying to hold down longer and get an advantage ... no one will stop trying to get an advantage all of a sudden
I don't think anyone is suggesting it will go away.
 
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