Cattle or Coach?

[Old Timer]

We are a club with an average roster with below average coaching and an even lower attacking structure

Whilst we are all Ssinrs supporters and want the best but sometimes some of us over rate the players we have

We have square pegs in round holes, round pegs in square holes and some holes with no pegs at all

We have to ask ourselves who from our starting line up would be selected in heir current positions for a top 4 side or a top eight side's run in team

The answer is quite simple NOT MANY

Our best players save a couple would be at best so called "depth signings" for the really competitive clubs

The much vaunted depth signings many lauded at the beginning of the season can't even get the Cutters to the top of the table. The Mounties have put them away pretty easily twice this year.

We need to be brutally honest about what we have and what it can achieve and even with astute coaching we would at best be handy and well short of the big guns

No doubt some will say Doust, Mary TPA's etc and sell if it has merit but we are very basic in all departments with underachievers being supported by an incredibly loyal fan base that also makes excuses for others inability to achieve

Love the Big Red V by all means but some times love is just not enough

 

[Dragonslayer]

Poor roster, average roster or good roster? this is the burning question. So lets take a look at our squad.

AhMau - 9 tests for Samoa
Aitken - Australian PM XIII - Young Kangaroo - NSW Country Origin
Carr - Nil
Cooper - 3 tests for England
Creagh - 2 tests Australia
JDB - 1 NSW Country Origin
Dugan - 2 tests Australia
KFFL - 2 tests NZ - 1 test Samoa
Frizell - 5 tests Wales - 2 NSW Country Origins
YKG - Nil
Havili - 2 tests Tonga - 1 test NZ
Hutch - Junior Kangaroo
Lafai - 5 tests Samoa
Lui - 3 tests Samoa
Mann - Nil
Marketo - Nil
Marshall - 27 tests NZ
Masoe - 7 tests Samoa
Matthews - Nil
McCarthy - 4 tests Ireland
McCrone - 3 NSW Country Origins
Milne - Junior Kiwi
Nightingale - 29 tests NZ
Packer - 2 tests NZ
Quinlan - Nil
Rein - 2 NSW Country Origins
Thompson - 2 NSW Country Origins
Widdop - 15 tests England

So out of our 28 "listed" contracted players:

9 have played Tier 1 test match football (Aust, NZ, Eng)
4 have played Tier 2 test match football ( Pacific Islands)
2 have played Tier 3 test match football (emerging nations - Wales, Ireland)
2 have played International Junior Reps (Aust, NZ)
5 have played NSW Country Origin
6 haven't played at rep level.

Now compare to the Cowboys:

5 have played tier 1 (Aust, NZ, Eng)
3 have played tier 2 (Samoa, PNG)
3 have played tier 3 (Ireland, Scotland, Vanautu)
4 have played international junior reps (Aust, NZ)
1 has played NSW City Origin
1 has played PM XIII
3 have played QLD Residents
4 have played junior schoolboys
1 has played SOO QLD
4 haven't played rep football

So if we are talking cattle, what difference is there between us and the Cowboys? Is their squad "better" than ours or just better coached?. In fact our squad contains more tier 1 and 2 rep players. Whereas the Cowboys have developed more youth.
I think therein is our dilemma.
The Cowboys seem to recognise talent, and then develop that talent through strong coaching systems and management.
We, however, have a stable full of "internationals" and "origin" players who seem to be running in circles and following a strict game plan.

So you tell me is that coach/es or cattle? I'm tending to think more the former at this time!

 

[FAS33]

Dragons need to be relegated to the NSW Cup. They'll most probably struggle there as well.

 

[Coffs dragon]

Brilliant roster summary & comparison by Dragonslayer and really puts it into perspective. Identifying and developing our young talent certainly seems to be an area that we have been woeful since the departure of coach Nathan Brown. To think the club has appointed a Pathways Director in Ian Millward from the old boys club that will only lead us in the direction of circles.
The club needs a broom through the coaching, recruitment and talent scouting/pathways areas with outside help and fresh ideas.

 

[BennyV]

We have to ask ourselves who from our starting line up would be selected in heir current positions for a top 4 side or a top eight side's run in team

The answer is quite simple NOT MANY

Hmmm, interesting theory, let's have a look.

1. Dugan - definitely would make a top 4 side, either at fullback or elsewhere. Valuable player that should have our game plan built around him.
2. Fai Fai Loa - probably not
3. Lafai - there's an argument there, considering he has played in a minor premiership winning team and 2 grand final teams. Being under-utilised though, and if put into a Top 4 team we'd see a different player.
4. Aitken - Yes, I believe he would based on the potential he has shown. Like Lafai, being used all wrong.
5. Nightingale - Little doubt that if he was contracted to one of the Top 4 teams, he'd be starting.
6. Widdop - on form, no, but if Melbourne had him back he'd be starting over Blake Green, so I'd put that in the 'yes' column.
7. Marshall - no.
8. Ah Mau - would definitely get a bench spot, at least.
9. Rein - no.
10. Packer - as per Ah Mau.
11. Thompson - Yes. Like the centres, criminally under-utilised.
12. Frizell - as per Thompson.
13. Jack de Belin - Argument either way. Again, if he was in a system that allowed him to grow and develop the way we all hoped he would, then it would be a yes. For example, Brisbane could, at this point, he grooming him to take over from Parker.

So that's 3 definite 'no', 3-5 that I consider as definite yes and a bunch of maybes.

Now, if we compare that to how many of the coaching staff would be contracted by Top 4 clubs as coaches or assistants...

 

[giboz71]

Good analysis Dragonslayer, and backs up the notion that our players don't develop as well due to poor coaching. For the record, I think we need to do better than McGregor as I have no confidence he will lead us to a comp. So I'll state that on the record now.

But FMD, we need to fix our recruitment as well. What Dragonslayers's post also highlights to me as that teams like the Cowboys find VALUE from players where its not so glaringly obvious.

For instance, Marshall and Widdop have played 42 tests combined and we have paid through the nose for those credentials. But halves pairings like Maloney and Townsend, Sezer and Austin, even Hunt and Milford have played little or no test or Origin footy. Think we'd gladly take any of those halves pairings right now.

3 years ago, we signed Dugan to a massive 800k/year contract. At about the same time, the Cows got Coote for around 300k. Who do you think derived the most value? I'd say the Premiers.

Rein is apparently on 450k, yet the Cows got Granville, an unknown reserve grader for a fraction of that.

Nightingale is a 29 test player, Kyle Feldt has played zero. Who do you think would help us score points right now?

I could go on and on, but its clear this as well as coaching, this is what we need to fix. Stop making the easy decisions and pay overs for superstars "on paper"

Would be good if our recruiters actually did the work instead of only finding guys with neon signs on their head and automatically opening the chequebook.

 

[BrissyRedV]

Hmmm, interesting theory, let's have a look.

1. Dugan - definitely would make a top 4 side, either at fullback or elsewhere. Valuable player that should have our game plan built around him. In his current position? No. As a centre, yes, at any of the top 4.
2. Fai Fai Loa - probably not. No.
3. Lafai - there's an argument there, considering he has played in a minor premiership winning team and 2 grand final teams. Being under-utilised though, and if put into a Top 4 team we'd see a different player. No.
4. Aitken - Yes, I believe he would based on the potential he has shown. Like Lafai, being used all wrong. Possible.
5. Nightingale - Little doubt that if he was contracted to one of the Top 4 teams, he'd be starting. Yes.
6. Widdop - on form, no, but if Melbourne had him back he'd be starting over Blake Green, so I'd put that in the 'yes' column. Yes.
7. Marshall - no.
8. Ah Mau - would definitely get a bench spot, at least. Yes.
9. Rein - no.
10. Packer - as per Ah Mau. Yes.
11. Thompson - Yes. Like the centres, criminally under-utilised. Yes.
12. Frizell - as per Thompson. Yes.
13. Jack de Belin - Argument either way. Again, if he was in a system that allowed him to grow and develop the way we all hoped he would, then it would be a yes. For example, Brisbane could, at this point, he grooming him to take over from Parker. Yes.

So that's 3 definite 'no', 3-5 that I consider as definite yes and a bunch of maybes.

Now, if we compare that to how many of the coaching staff would be contracted by Top 4 clubs as coaches or assistants...

Answers in bold above. To be clear, this is just for current top 4 sides and anywhere in the 17 but I think all those players under a good coach would all be pushing for a starting spot at one or all of the current tops 4 sides. So I have 8/13 which isn't that bad and really highlights to me how bad Mary is as a coach.

 

[blacksafake]

Hmmm, interesting theory, let's have a look.

1. Dugan - definitely would make a top 4 side, either at fullback or elsewhere. Valuable player that should have our game plan built around him.
2. Fai Fai Loa - probably not
3. Lafai - there's an argument there, considering he has played in a minor premiership winning team and 2 grand final teams. Being under-utilised though, and if put into a Top 4 team we'd see a different player.
4. Aitken - Yes, I believe he would based on the potential he has shown. Like Lafai, being used all wrong.
5. Nightingale - Little doubt that if he was contracted to one of the Top 4 teams, he'd be starting.
6. Widdop - on form, no, but if Melbourne had him back he'd be starting over Blake Green, so I'd put that in the 'yes' column.
7. Marshall - no.
8. Ah Mau - would definitely get a bench spot, at least.
9. Rein - no.
10. Packer - as per Ah Mau.
11. Thompson - Yes. Like the centres, criminally under-utilised.
12. Frizell - as per Thompson.
13. Jack de Belin - Argument either way. Again, if he was in a system that allowed him to grow and develop the way we all hoped he would, then it would be a yes. For example, Brisbane could, at this point, he grooming him to take over from Parker.

So that's 3 definite 'no', 3-5 that I consider as definite yes and a bunch of maybes.

Now, if we compare that to how many of the coaching staff would be contracted by Top 4 clubs as coaches or assistants...

I think you are right BV, especially the centres & backrowers. I could almost make a case for Rein under better coaching.There are imo some similarities with McCullough, however the big difference is in the coaching.The broncos/McCullough know what they are going to do when they get in the 20. Rein seems to be confused at times, how often do you see him looking around as the ball is being played to see who is in position to receive the ball instead of looking at the defence to see where they can attack knowing what his options are.McCullough knows exactly where his halves are & they are prepared for him if he runs.Sometimes when Rein runs our halves/support are standing10 metres away not anticipating this option.Because they have been coached just to get to the last tackle & go for their big play.

 

[watatank]

who cares if Widdop would make the Melbourne team, Blake green might be forced out due to the salary cap ffs it doesn't mean much. A lot of our players would be good value complementary players at other clubs but not leading players. We pay them to be more than that and they aren't proving worth

 

[BennyV]

who cares if Widdop would make the Melbourne team, Blake green might be forced out due to the salary cap ffs it doesn't mean much. A lot of our players would be good value complementary players at other clubs but not leading players. We pay them to be more than that and they aren't proving worth

Question was asked regarding which of our players would make Top 4 teams. Question was answered.

 

[coast_dragons]

People need to face the harsh reality the Dragons are not great haven't been in a while and may never be again.

Poor leadership breeds poor attitude.

 

[grouch]

coast just dropped a devastating truth bomb

 

[giboz71]

I just think we're flat out lazy when it comes to recruitment.

It would be nice if our scouts and recruiters got off their arses and did the work for once instead of waiting for opportunities to come to them.

It would be nice if once and a while we could uncover a Matt Moylan, or a James Tedesco, or a RTS or a Valentine Holmes, or a Bryce Cartwright, or an Ash Taylor. Perhaps a little nugget of gold that no one's heard of like Jake Granville? Or Josh Hodgson.

The list goes on. Plenty of talent out there that we never seem to find coz we're asleep at the wheel.

The only time we ever seem to do anything is when we pick up the Daily Telegraph and find out Dugan's been sacked from Canberra, then by Brisbane. Or that Benji is unwanted by rugby. Or that Packer is getting out of jail.

Seems this is the only time our recruitment guys are jolted into action.

 

[Dragons 09]

Do you think Dragons are struggling due to cattle, Coach or both?

The coach first and foremost, then the Board, followed by the hangers on (jobs for the boys program) and then to a lesser extent the cattle.

The glaring omission at the Dragons is the lack of systems. We just don't seem to have them. Systems provide a platform from the Juniors all the way through to the NRL side so as there is a coordinated approach to player development and team integration. If each team runs those same core systems as part of their overall development and training structures, then every team in the organisation is on the same page. It's succession planning but also helps with performance accountability. When a player is not performing, an injury happens, suspension or rep duties occur, it becomes second nature for a player to take the leap to the next level as the same systems are in place regardless of what grade you have been playing. Sure, the toughness and speed of the game will be different, but you won't look like a duck out of water and be banished back to the lower ranks with a stamp on your forehead "never to play NRL again".

We seem to have an NRL side playing one brand of footy, the feeder side playing another brand and the kids doing something different again. Clearly something is wrong here and the head coach has not put systems in place that are consistent. There is way more to being a head coach than just coaching the NRL side and Mary seems clueless to this fact. The Board are allowing this to continue without retribution and the hangers on are not sufficiently experienced enough to notice and bring it to the appropriate attention.

The alternative is of course, that Mary has put his systems in place but the likes of Head, Demetriou etc have zero faith or belief in them and have just decided they will run their own race. Either way, it's the head coaches problem. If he can't get the basic entry level coaching stuff right, there is no way i can possibly blame the cattle at his disposal while ever they are following his lead......unless mutiny is expected.

 

[Old Timer]

Interesting post by Dragonslayer

Not sure how 2nd tier international rep football got such a lofty reputation.
To be honest being anything but Aus, NZ, English and playing NRL is almost enough to get you a jersey come rep time. Some even make it from NSW cup. So IMO doesn't necessarily make them a better than average player

If our rep football was properly sequenced City v Country then SOO then test many of the people who got a rep jumper would actually miss out. So IMO Cuty V Country has lost a lot if it's meaning

How many junior Kangaroos actually go into lengthy NRL careers and progress to senior rep football? Just being a Jnr Kangaroo doesn't mean you will actually make it in the top grade

How long since Marshall and Packer actually played test matches? They don't make the current team so their time had passed

Yes Dugan played tests but not in the position he plays at club level and in fact better players were available in both cases and were overlooked.

In respect of who would get a birth in another club in the top 4 in the position that they currently occupy only Frizell would get a look in for a starting position

Dugan would hamper others attack so wouldn't get a run
Flo would be overlooked simply because because of age
Aitken next year for sure but needs this year to cement it
De Belin bench at best
Ah Mau bench at best

Lafai, KFFL, SI, Havilli, Mc Carthy wouldn't get a run in a top 8 side and the lack of interest in Benji means he would also struggle

So the others would get a top 8 club birth but not necessarily on the money they get currently

So whilst raw data looks compelling it needs to be scrutinised for relevancy and IMHO if we look at the info in the cold hearted light of day our squad is not that strong

 

[Willow]

People need to face the harsh reality the Dragons are not great haven't been in a while and may never be again.

Poor leadership breeds poor attitude.

There is acceptance of mediocrity.

It is a real development.

Fans are miserable, fighting amongst themselves. Nothing healthy about that.

Needs a turnaround, what do people suggest as a solution?

 

[dragonsben]

Its no secret Giboz that the most successful sides over the years are those with minimal changes to their core squad. In particular, 1, 6, 7 and 9.

Overall players used is often a good gauge.

We lack 1 more try scorer in the backline, like Minh, Im unsure of KFFL. Happy with Aitken, Duges , Flo and I keep waiting for Lafai to shine.

Mary is on borrowed time if he cant show a desire to alter his attacking structure, which is basically, dummy half runs ( 1st in the nrl ), and one our passes until the 5th.

IM STILL WAITING FOR DRAGONS TO SIGN A DECENT WINGER!

widdop needs to improve his decision making and dugan needs to learn how to pass and give his outside backs some bloody ball!

i like the attitude mary has instilled in the team but don't like his negative attack tactics. we play our best when were offloading. we need to attack and build pressure effectively.

in the off season i wouldn't mind widdop going to fb and possibly dugan play 6. dugan could play 6 well if he had a decent halfback outside him. he could use his running game similar to john sutton at his best. this means widdop get the ball in swooping block plays.

it may be something to think about cause I'm really sick of the way we attack.

 

[dragonsben]

I just think we're flat out lazy when it comes to recruitment.

It would be nice if our scouts and recruiters got off their arses and did the work for once instead of waiting for opportunities to come to them.

It would be nice if once and a while we could uncover a Matt Moylan, or a James Tedesco, or a RTS or a Valentine Holmes, or a Bryce Cartwright, or an Ash Taylor. Perhaps a little nugget of gold that no one's heard of like Jake Granville? Or Josh Hodgson.

The list goes on. Plenty of talent out there that we never seem to find coz we're asleep at the wheel.

The only time we ever seem to do anything is when we pick up the Daily Telegraph and find out Dugan's been sacked from Canberra, then by Brisbane. Or that Benji is unwanted by rugby. Or that Packer is getting out of jail.

Seems this is the only time our recruitment guys are jolted into action.

its so true! it does feel like that. the recruitment has been pathetic. its so reactionary and there doesn't seem to be ANY planning involved. like u alluded to, we are just picking up the scraps.

the club needs change. the team needs to learn how to attack effectively and find their own style, similar to how the cowboys or broncs have an individual attacking style based on their strengths. i don't see that at the dragons.

 

[dragonsben]

Our team has 2 major flaws:-
1. No genuine halfback to call the shots and direct the team...two 5/8's don't work together!!
2. We are stuck with a poor coach with inexperienced assistants that lack tactical know how and ability to instigate change.
Fix these 2 problem areas and the road ahead will be a lot smoother. I certainly admire what Neil Henry has done at the Titans with limited resources and an ordinary roster. He does however have 2 very exciting and talented halves in Taylor and Elgey (next year) Watch them fly in 2017 under a SMART COACH that teaches players to improve and utilize their skill. Our current coaching structure seems to restrict player development and skill level.

does it feel like we have had barely any juniors coming through our system who have come into first grade and made a name for themselves. roosters for example now have their fb lattrell who they can build a team around the next 5 years!

 

[Jubileeboy]

does it feel like we have had barely any juniors coming through our system who have come into first grade and made a name for themselves. roosters for example now have their fb lattrell who they can build a team around the next 5 years!

I wouldn't call Taree Roosters territory?
What other 'local' juniors do they have?
We at least have Nightngale, Aitken, Creagh and Host as genuinely coming up through our juniors.