Match Discussion: Round 21 vs Sea Eagles @ Brookvale Oval

[Whats Doing]

I didn't see the game ( I took your advice) and thank god I didn't.

Having read the comments, whilst the strategy of Browny is commendable, it will only work if the younger players are likely to succeed in the long term otherwise the short term pain will be for little or no long term benefit. A lot of the Newcastle juniors and players brought into the club from my perspective will just not cut it as good to top line players once developed.

Whatever the full Melbourne system is, they have a proven track record of identifying and developing players into good to top line players without having a proper junior base to rely on. They bring in players who you never heard of and they are so well developed and skilled once they hit the NRL. Since being admitted into the comp, they have made the semis (including this year) 16 times out of 19 years with an overall win ratio of 63%. This is something we need to aspire to.

They do have a very good scouting system ( probably the best in the NRL) which is far and wide and this is where I believe they are streets ahead of the knights. We need to invest in having scouts in QLD, NZ and other parts of the NSW to identify real quality juniors and not just relying on Newcastle juniors which by and large has not been a successful model over the longer term.

Browny needs to get the Board to start heavily investing in identification and development systems similiar to the Melbourne business model as it will likely have more successful and sustained long term outcomes for the club.

 

[Glendale]

Yeah I guess thats a fair point...

Whilst we've blooded a large amount of young players, a lot of them you can comfortably say, won't have much of a first grade career. Guys like Bhana, Elliot, Fitzgibbon, Feeney, Pat and Chanel, Pearsall will never amount to anything... And then we don't know for certain if the others which we have a lot of faith in will actually work out either... The thing that gives me confidence is the guy we bought from the Sharks, Mooney, seems to know what he's doing. But we're just living on a prayer hoping Mooney and Brown answer it to be honest.

 

[Mr_Knightside]

On the topic of Hodgkinson/Cogger, the way I interpret their contributions yesterday was that it could have been a plan from Brown. Cogger did just about all of the kicking and Hodgkinson only really played first receiver close to the line on attack.

Maybe Brown told Hodko to take a back seat and instructed Cogger to run the show a bit more to try and help his development in a pressure situation. It seemed like a very clear plan that they had on the field that Cogger was lining up to take just about every kick in general play.

On Cogger, I think he really stepped up yesterday, he was a lot more composed and I like that he was more involved. His last two games have been impressive and I think I'm starting to see some signs that he could be a decent first grader in a couple of years.

I thought Mamo had another decent game at FB yesterday as well, maybe not as influential as he was in the Melbourne game but he was one of our best in attack yesterday I thought. His seems like he's getting in between defenders on every run and making little half breaks etc. I really like that he's running on to little inside balls and running off the forwards looking for an offload. Still has heaps to work on with his defence and positioning but at the very least we can't criticise his effort. I agree with others that we still should be looking to buy an established FB from elsewhere, but if that doesn't pan out I guess we have to work with what we've got and if we can develop Mamo's passing game during the pre-season then it would add another dimension to our attack and set plays.

 

[Rod]

I agree that it seemed obvious that the plan was to go to Cogger for most of the kicking, not sure why but that's what the plan seemed to be.

The boys showed a bit of ticker in the second half but the fact is that the Sea Eagles completely shut up shop with 30 minutes to go (which they shouldn't have done when they had a great chance to rack up their F/A, but anyway). When they were actually trying they completely manhandled us both figuratively and literally. I actually didn't even think they were that great in the first half considering their dominance, they blew several clear chances, on another day it could have been 40-0 at halftime.

Whether a physical and mental working over is good for a young side I don't know, it probably is in the long run because it's a reminder that just because we put in against the Storm and the first half of the Sharks game doesn't mean suddenly you won't get towelled up the next week.

 

[newyboy]

Give me $1,000,000 and a return ticket to the USA and i'll bring you back 2 x wingers, 2 x centres and 2 x forwards who will demolish anything the NRL has to offer.

 

[Burwood]

Gee, it's getting harder to keep positive each week.

Our general and former SoO halfback Trent Hodkinson seemed very happy to sit back and watch a six-game veteran in Cogger kick from deep within his own half at the end of each set.

Two of our most experienced players in Sims and Gagai provided much needed starch in defence in the all-important opening minutes of the game.

Sims' most damaging and effective hitup of the match was a result of him crawling 10m on his hands and knees.

You could almost feel Levi's and Ross' hearts breaking as they ran to the line and looked for an offload or supporting player, only to release that the closest Knight was standing some 10-15m behind them and that they were, once again, all on their lonesome.

 

[TooheysNew]

Give me $1,000,000 and a return ticket to the USA and i'll bring you back 2 x wingers, 2 x centres and 2 x forwards who will demolish anything the NRL has to offer.

No you won't.

 

[Still Nutty]

It was interesting to hear Brown's pre-match interview with Freddie yesterday where he talked about the work they have been putting in to tackle selection and tackle technique...he acknowledged that in some games it is coming together better than others.

It was really obvious yesterday that the game so clearly demonstrated that aspect of our performance:

First half - virtually no leg tacklers, lots of poor arm grabs...

Second half - more bodies in tackles and every time there was somebody taking legs out as well...assume the message got hammered at half time and the fact they executed this in the second half bore fruit and we competed over the whole second 40...I know manly dropped off but defensively, our execution in the second half contributed to Manly's poor second half performance

 

[Noname36]

I didn't see the game ( I took your advice) and thank god I didn't.

Having read the comments, whilst the strategy of Browny is commendable, it will only work if the younger players are likely to succeed in the long term otherwise the short term pain will be for little or no long term benefit. A lot of the Newcastle juniors and players brought into the club from my perspective will just not cut it as good to top line players once developed.

Whatever the full Melbourne system is, they have a proven track record of identifying and developing players into good to top line players without having a proper junior base to rely on. They bring in players who you never heard of and they are so well developed and skilled once they hit the NRL. Since being admitted into the comp, they have made the semis (including this year) 16 times out of 19 years with an overall win ratio of 63%. This is something we need to aspire to.

They do have a very good scouting system ( probably the best in the NRL) which is far and wide and this is where I believe they are streets ahead of the knights. We need to invest in having scouts in QLD, NZ and other parts of the NSW to identify real quality juniors and not just relying on Newcastle juniors which by and large has not been a successful model over the longer term.

Browny needs to get the Board to start heavily investing in identification and development systems similiar to the Melbourne business model as it will likely have more successful and sustained long term outcomes for the club.

I'd hazard a guess that not all the kids getting picked at the moment are being so because they're seen as long-term first graders. Some are obviously and I think some others are getting runs at the moment because they're unknowns (might have it in them to make the step up, or might not and that's what we're assessing at the moment). A few of them however I think are just in the side at the moment while the much more expensive under performers are being cleared out. I have a feeling a lot of the kids in the side at the moment won't be there if we manage to make some decent signings. A lot of them will come through hopefully but I think there are also a lot seen as very cheap stopgaps while we try and fix the cap/roster mess with a clean out.

 

[Rod]

First half - virtually no leg tacklers, lots of poor arm grabs...

This is a bit of a league-wide trend at the moment (among the poorer teams anyway) and it's driving me crazy. I understand the strategy behind locking up the ball but it's just gone too far IMO. The best defensive teams like Melbourne often have one tackler going low and one high and it works very effectively, because the low tackler brings the guy to ground while the guy over the top both locks up the ball and is able to lie on the bloke for longer (because unfortunately the refs don't give much leeway to good legs tackles.

Incidentally Manly's last two game have been the best examples of this. Both Souths and us spent the whole first half of our respective games with basically no legs tackles and got completely steamrolled in the forwards as a result.

 

[Pedge1971]

On the topic of Hodgkinson/Cogger, the way I interpret their contributions yesterday was that it could have been a plan from Brown. Cogger did just about all of the kicking and Hodgkinson only really played first receiver close to the line on attack.

Maybe Brown told Hodko to take a back seat and instructed Cogger to run the show a bit more to try and help his development in a pressure situation. It seemed like a very clear plan that they had on the field that Cogger was lining up to take just about every kick in general play.

On Cogger, I think he really stepped up yesterday, he was a lot more composed and I like that he was more involved. His last two games have been impressive and I think I'm starting to see some signs that he could be a decent first grader in a couple of years.

I thought Mamo had another decent game at FB yesterday as well, maybe not as influential as he was in the Melbourne game but he was one of our best in attack yesterday I thought. His seems like he's getting in between defenders on every run and making little half breaks etc. I really like that he's running on to little inside balls and running off the forwards looking for an offload. Still has heaps to work on with his defence and positioning but at the very least we can't criticise his effort. I agree with others that we still should be looking to buy an established FB from elsewhere, but if that doesn't pan out I guess we have to work with what we've got and if we can develop Mamo's passing game during the pre-season then it would add another dimension to our attack and set plays.

Meanwhile Tyrone Roberts is playing out of his skin on the Gold Coast.

 

[Mr_Knightside]

Meanwhile Tyrone Roberts is playing out of his skin on the Gold Coast.

Yeah I was pretty disappointed last year that we let him go, he probably shouldn't have been on $400k in the first place but I felt that he was made a bit of a scapegoat for the team's poor performances when there were plenty of other players who could have had the finger pointed at them at that stage. He's a talented player Tyrone Roberts, seems like the Gold Coast system is getting the best out of him this year.

 

[K-Man]

Yeah I was pretty disappointed last year that we let him go, he probably shouldn't have been on $400k in the first place but I felt that he was made a bit of a scapegoat for the team's poor performances when there were plenty of other players who could have had the finger pointed at them at that stage. He's a talented player Tyrone Roberts, seems like the Gold Coast system is getting the best out of him this year.

There's really nothing that Tyrone can't do, it's just about consistency with him. He's a footballer with a bit of spark about him, that's what I like. Sure he's not elite, but I think he's improving and he does offer something with ball in hand, at least some level of unpredictability.

Compare that to Hodkinson who offers literally nothing. There is not one thing that Hodkinson does well apart from kick goals, which Tyrone is okay at too. Everyone lost their minds over how great Hodko was going to be for us, but it's like nobody had ever watched him play. He can run around behind a monster pack and look half decent (still not even exceptional, just okay). But he can't create anything or finish anything. He's not a runner, he's not a clever ballplayer, he's not instinctive, he's not even much of a general.

I'll be interested to see where Tyrone and Hodko are at in their careers two years from now. We'll still have Hodkinson 'leading' us around, and Tyrone will have two more years of experience under his belt. My guess is that they will be light years apart as NRL halfbacks, but not the way people might have assumed a year ago.

 

[slotmachine]

You must not watch many Titans games. He is still shit. Just has Ash Taylor to cover for his shitness.

 

[Glendale]

I was really fond of Tyrone in 2013-2014, he wasn't a star but there was just something about him. Going into the 2015 season I thought that it would have been the year that he stepped it up a gear, that wasn't to be. I think we all realised that he wasn't very good, not only that but the genius' that is Bennet/Hages/Stone signed him up for 400k, which is a lot more then he's worth.

I must admit I had a hard on for the Hodkinson signing when it was rumoured and announced like a lot of other Knights fans. I guess at that point in time we were really really sick of Tyrone and we just wanted some good news and wanted to see some sort of vision from the club. Oh boy how we were wrong. Tyrone, for all his faults, actually won us a few matches off his own bat. I can remember 3-4 times in his career he single handedly won us games. Whilst his other 90 odd games with the club ranged from average to terrible, the match winning performances are something we won't see from Hokko. Hodkinson is just plodding along with performances not any better then what Tyrone would be dishing up, and without the occasional match winning performance, whilst on twice the money (while we pay the Titans for Tyrone to play against us). Not only that but Tyrone is younger and still has time to get better, he could be a Ben Hunt type late bloomer, we just don't know. He can also play dummy half and IMO could be a better hooker then halfback if he was tried there. Hodkinson's career has already peaked. He's as good as he's ever gonna get and currently he can't run, kick, or pass as good as any of the other halves in the competition. And we're stuck with our 'courageous captain' for 2 more years after this one...

If you lined up all the starting #7s in the comp right now, I would put Hodkinson dead last. Same goes for our fullback.

Thats not to say I would want Tyrone here right now, just agreeing with the point that Hodkinson is so bad that he makes Tyrone look good.

 

[slotmachine]

Levi and cogger would be last in their positions too

 

[Glendale]

You must not watch many Titans games. He is still shit. Just has Ash Taylor to cover for his shitness.

Thats a massive myth.

Gold Coast are definitely getting something out of him. The playmaking involvement is spread pretty much 50/50 between him and Taylor, whilst I agree Taylor is the better player Tyrone is definitely pulling his weight in their team. And he's defiantly showing signs of improvement too, his kicking game is much better this year then I ever remember it to be. He's probably forced more goal line dropouts this year then in his whole career with the Knights. Here's his stats:

Roberts 2016: Apps 17, Tries 2, LB 3, LBA 4, TA 8, Runs 102, Metres 795

Roberts 2015: Apps 21, Tries 3, LB 4, LBA 4, TA 4, Runs 108, Metres 833

It's probably not a major improvement but its definitely an improvement, and an improvement thats IMO is noticeable when you watch the Titans. Taylor's stats are better but not that much:

Ash Taylor: Apps 17, Tries 5, LB 4, LBA 9, TA 10, Runs 115, Metres 837

 

[slotmachine]

Ok so you don't watch Titans games.

His kicking is still hopeless. His decision making non-existent. He is a one trick pony.

Round 11 against the Panthers he did everything he could to lose the game until he got injured and Taylor took over.

In the golden point game against souths he screwed up five or six times in extra time until Taylor got a shot and won the game.

If he looks at all better it's because he is playing outside someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[Glendale]

Ok so you don't watch Titans games.

His kicking is still hopeless. His decision making non-existent. He is a one trick pony.

Round 11 against the Panthers he did everything he could to lose the game until he got injured and Taylor took over.

In the golden point game against souths he screwed up five or six times in extra time until Taylor got a shot and won the game.

If he looks at all better it's because he is playing outside someone who knows what they are doing.

Well he's not 'The New Joey'. We all know that. And I think we made the right decision of letting him go. But IMO he's certainly improved his game in 2016 for the Titans. For sure, Ash Taylor is a superstar in the making but Tyrone has had an equally big role to play. And that's a difference of opinion between you and I and we'll leave it at that.

I'd much rather have a one-trick pony (Roberts) then a no-trick pony (Hodkinson).

 

[slotmachine]

Fair call there.