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Non Footy Chat Thread II

Avenger

Immortal
Messages
32,021
I don't have to make it out as anything - your commentary is doing a fine job of showing your posts
for what they are.


It seems you believe you are morally justified, but as per the link Haynzy posted, your Christianity has nothing to do with your apparent bigotry.
So everyone who votes no is a bigot or just me in general?
 

phantom eel

First Grade
Messages
6,327
So everyone who votes no is a bigot or just me in general?
No. Why would I make generalisations about "everybody"?

The reasons you are giving for voting no haven't stood up (Jesus's words? still waiting...) and so your view is appearing somewhat bigoted.
 

Avenger

Immortal
Messages
32,021
And ok to vote yes.

Which is a lot different to you claiming Jesus' words supported your view on homosexuality/marriage equality.
That's my Orthodox Christian interpretation. We have many. For example in my religion, our priests must be married or they cannot become priests. We believe you need to have some experience when giving advice to people and married people seem to have plenty. The Catholics have a different view.

Orthodox Christianity differs to Catholicism. Different views, different interpretations of the Lord's work. A bit like yours and mine.
 

phantom eel

First Grade
Messages
6,327
Sure, I am aware of the differences between orthodox and western christianity.

It doesn't mean that "Jesus' words" support you views against homosexuality or marriage equality though, as you'd claimed, does it?

Pou argues that relious people pick and choose which of the beliefs of their church's elders/ruling elite that they believe. You appear to be personally choosing to vote no against equality on this issue, the reasons you have given ("Jesus' words") have proven misguided/unsupported, and therefore your personal choice on the matter appears bigoted to me.

But it doesn't mean we can't be forum friends. I, like others, don't like seeing Jesus' name (or that of any other deity) used for hurtful purposes.
 

Kornstar

Coach
Messages
15,556
So everyone who votes no is a bigot or just me in general?

Depends who you ask.

I am ok with anyone who votes no, people are allowed an opinion based on whatever reason they want.

I've had conversations with many people who will be voting no, in confidence they tell me they will vote no but when asked in public will not give their real opinion in the fear of be treated as you have been.

Me personally i don't care. I am not religious at all, i don't believe in any kind of higher power, shit just is as it is. So if 2 people want to get married who happen to have the same genitals it's none of my business.

Do i understand, no. We exist to procreate so there must be a reason for the different sexes and as Pou mentioned earlier if we didn't do that then we would eventually cease to exist. So it makes no sense to have sex with someone from the same sex from a survival point of view but if people want to it doesn't affect me in any way so why would i stop it?

The problem though, as Avenger pointed out is that so many people are harassed into feeling guilty for having their own point of view. If those morons would just leave it alone and be as accepting as they want everyone else to be on gay marriage, then people like Avenger won't vote no out of spite.
 
Messages
19,104
My perspective is this: I don't really get why heterosexuals or homosexuals want to get married. But it doesn't bother me that they all wish to do so, and it's not my business to stop them.
 
Messages
19,104
Are gay people living together considered defactos?

If not, will they be after a yes vote?

This is a very relevant question. It depends on context (they certainly count in terms of identifying dependent for tax purposes). Until recently there were difficulties in accessing similar rights to one's (deceased) partner's superannuation etc. I think most of those differences have been ironed out though.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
84,176
Yes, but your post was a generalised off-the-mark assumption of a view (i.e. strawman).
So you don't think all religious people are brainwashed morons who can't think for themselves?
So how can you claim widespread support for any moral viewpoint espoused by church leaders, when you admit that their followers pick and choose....? Non-circular strawman-free response please.
Because the 'followers' share the views of the 'leaders'. Just like in any political realm, if the 'leaders' don't share the views of the 'followers' they don't get to be 'leaders'.
No you didn't... you said that you find homosexuality as revolting as incest, but you didn't clarify whether or not you find incest revolting (and hence whether you find homosexuality revoting.
Yes I did, here:
I thought it was obvious. Not that my opinion matters but since you asked, men having sex with men is disgusting. But for some reason women having sex with women doesn't have the same effect. Must be because the Bible says lesbians are hot.
From your own statement you either:
a) find homosexuality revolting, or
b) don't find incest revolting.

Which one Pou? Own it, say it loud and proud...
See above. I posted it in this thread a couple of pages back when you asked me the first time. Stop asking. If I have to tell you again you'll have three black eyes.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
84,176
Gee lots of generlisations going on in this thread.

It seems that there are people posting here that don't really understand Christianity, I think that is the fault of many Christians who consistently mis-represent Jesus and the writings in the Bible that Christians follow.

As a Christian I have found this article very helpful.

Hey Christians, Watch out for the Plebiscite
Posted by Tom | Aug 10, 2017 | Christianess, Current Affairs, Politics, Social Justice | 25

Plebiscite.jpg


The plebiscite is coming. It’s not the one we were told we’d be having (then told we were not having) but it is still a chance for us to make our opinion on whether same-sex marriage should be legalised known. Now that it has been decided that it’s happening, lobby groups and people with opinions all over the country are gearing up for a fight. For those of us who are Christians, how we engage with this is important; we can either help the cause of Jesus or hinder it. So here are four ideas for Christians about how we can do this plebiscite well.

Don’t say horrible things about other humans
No matter where you stand, there’s a very good chance that all of us are going to be tempted to say mean things about other people – whether they identify as LGBTQI, as a conservative Christian, a progressive Christian, a politician, a combination of these, or something else entirely. Facebook is already full of people debating the value, or lack thereof, of this plebiscite. All the people you interact with, and speak about, whether in broad generalisations or in very specific terms, are made in the image of God, they are loved by him, and Jesus died for them. Treat them for who they are. They are God’s and he will take your treatment of them personally.

Particularly watch how you speak about people from the LGBTQI community, especially if, like me, you’re a Christian who is not from this community yourself and therefore may not know what you’re talking about and probably cannot speak on their behalf. You may say something deeply hurtful out of ignorance more than malice, but whatever your motives or intentions, you are still responsible for your words. Be careful. How should you be careful? I’ll show you a most excellent way…

Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry
In case you’re wondering, that’s a quote from James 1:19. What if our first response to someone who disagrees with us either online or IRL was “Tell me more”, “I don’t know enough about this, help me understand”, or “Thank you, I hadn’t thought of things that way.” Chances are whatever you want to say has already been said, so you probably don’t need to say it again, they’ve heard it before. But what if you were known as someone who listened, someone who was thoughtful, and someone who was not easily baited. That’s probably better than being known as someone who thinks they’re right, and tells everyone else why they’re right, and how everyone can be right like them.

If you’re going to vote, don’t be proud of how you are going to vote
You may be tempted to be proud of how progressive and accepting you are because you are choosing to vote for same-sex marriage. You may be tempted to be pleased with yourself for standing firm in the face of negative public opinion because you will choose to vote against same-sex marriage. But there is no place for pride in the life of a Christian. Your value is not found in your moral values or your political or social opinion. You are no better or worse a person in the eyes of God because you vote “Yes” or “No”. Boast only in Christ, approach everything else with the humility of someone who knows your righteousness is not found in your actions but in his.

If it won’t help the Gospel, stop
My biggest concern with any discussion about this plebiscite is that we get distracted by things that are less important than the gospel. Sure there are important things at stake, but if the things we yell about stop people from hearing of the love of Christ, we’ve lost the most important battle.

For some of you, this may be the most controversial thing I say all post, but unless something crazy happens, soon same-sex marriage is going to be legalised. The question is, how do you want followers of Jesus remembered when all is said and done? Do you want us to be remembered as the ones who tried to deny the legal right of marriage to a group of people who we claim to love, many of whom do not claim to be Christians and adhere to Christian beliefs and values? Do you want us to be remembered as the people who hurled abuse at each other online and said horrible things about minorities? Do you want us to be remembered as the people who fought a losing battle and in the process further eroded our reputation as people of love? Or do you want us to be remembered as the people who spoke with love, who acted with love, who listened with love, and who won and lost with love?

Same-sex marriage does not threaten the Lordship of Jesus, but how you act as a follower will reflect his Lordship to the world. We are Christ’s ambassadors, so if our words and actions could stop people from hearing the good news of what Jesus has done for them at the cross, it’s time to stop, there are more important things at stake than the legal definition of marriage.


http://blog.tomfrench.com.au/2017/08/10/hey-christians-watch-plebiscite/
Great article
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
84,176
Is there a real benefit for society if the state recognises people as married? Maybe they should just stay out of it.
And this is another fair point. Marriage is a religious thing, and clearly no longer needs to be a legal thing. Maybe if they just abolish the state's role in marriage there will no longer need to be this public sphere assault on people's traditional beliefs.
 

phantom eel

First Grade
Messages
6,327
So you don't think all religious people are brainwashed morons who can't think for themselves?
Not all. Some are people who've just made the choice to be religious, like some people choose to support the Bulldogs. But the others are brainwashed, others are morons, and others can't think for themselves.

Because the 'followers' share the views of the 'leaders'. Just like in any political realm, if the 'leaders' don't share the views of the 'followers' they don't get to be 'leaders'.
Again you fail to address the scenario fo where the leaders move away from the views held by the followers, or fail to recognise the follows views "shifting with the times". When was the last time church "followers" effected change in their leadership?

Yes I did, here:
OK, didn't see that post. You're admitting you find the thought of men having sex with men disgusting... so I can now see the attraction to you of conservative-led hierarchical institutions (albeit led by men in frocks).
 

phantom eel

First Grade
Messages
6,327
No, I claim that they (just like their so called 'ruling elite') pick and choose from doctrine.
OK, doesn't seem like much of a difference though.

So instead of writing "Pou argues that relious people pick and choose which of the beliefs of their church's elders/ruling elite that they believe" I should have written "Pou argues that relious people pick and choose which of the doctrines of their church's elders/ruling elite that they believe"?
 

phantom eel

First Grade
Messages
6,327
And this is another fair point. Marriage is a religious thing, and clearly no longer needs to be a legal thing.
But marriage wasn't always a religious thing.

Was marriage religious in ancient Greece?
Was marriage religious in pre-Christian ancient Rome?
And was marriage religious in the European early Christian era?

Here's some wiki links that will lead you to the answers... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#History_of_marriage.

If marriage wasn't always religious, then it doesn't need to always remain religious, and so we should support the right of people to equally access marriage under the law (the church can stay out of it, and continue their drift into irrelvance).
 
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