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Our predicted lineup R1

BennyV

Referee
Messages
22,523
I actually wanted Dufty at fullback for us from game 1 last year, but then he got injured in the 9's and it took until around round 19 for him to get a run. So I actually thought he was a better fullback option for us last year, than Dugan. I expect Dufty to play well this season and perform better than Dugan has for us in the last 2 years.

As for Field, he may have a difficult time getting a game at fullback, if Dufty makes it his own, but I think Field can also develop into a much better fullback, than Dugan has been for us over the last few seasons. I think Field has a future as a first grade fullback, whether it be at our club or somewhere else. Dugan does not have a future as a fullback in the NRL.

Would you care to elaborate on what kind of attacking structures our coaching staff should have developed to utilise Dugan's strengths?
Dufty and Field have the potential to become solid first grade fullbacks, but they are both a long, long way off that and have a lot of work to do around positioning, organising the defense, composure under bombs and most importantly, defense. Carving up u20s and being dangerous in NRL against organised, drilled defensive walls are 2 very different beasts and Field got a lesson in last year's Charity Shield that his dummy-and-skip move wont cut it in the top grade. For every Lachlan Coote or Ben Barba, there is a handful of Evander Cummins' or Nathan Gardner's who dominate lower grades against poor defense and never make their mark in first grade.

A ball-playing fullback is super handy but hardly the be-all and end-all as a requirement for the end set of hands and decision making in an attacking set. When you've got a fullback as defensively strong and as powerful a ball runner as Dugan, he can be used an extra man wider as a ball runner and utilise other players as the 'link man'. The lock, for example, can work as first receiver with the halfback and 5/8 combining. Alternately, Dugan could have been used as an inside strike runner to open up options for a ball-playing centre to be the decision maker. I get that the 'sweep play' we perfected in 2010 is effectively, but the Roosters of 2013 showed that some out-of-the-box thinking in attack can create dominance without it (if you remember, many of their set plays came as a combo of their half, 5/8 and backrowers, with fullback playing as a ball runner). The problem has always been Mary trying to shoehorn him into a role that his skillset is not suited for, rather than building an attacking structure around our best player.
 

Carlton

Juniors
Messages
1,224
Dufty and Field have the potential to become solid first grade fullbacks, but they are both a long, long way off that and have a lot of work to do around positioning, organising the defense, composure under bombs and most importantly, defense. Carving up u20s and being dangerous in NRL against organised, drilled defensive walls are 2 very different beasts and Field got a lesson in last year's Charity Shield that his dummy-and-skip move wont cut it in the top grade. For every Lachlan Coote or Ben Barba, there is a handful of Evander Cummins' or Nathan Gardner's who dominate lower grades against poor defense and never make their mark in first grade.

A ball-playing fullback is super handy but hardly the be-all and end-all as a requirement for the end set of hands and decision making in an attacking set. When you've got a fullback as defensively strong and as powerful a ball runner as Dugan, he can be used an extra man wider as a ball runner and utilise other players as the 'link man'. The lock, for example, can work as first receiver with the halfback and 5/8 combining. Alternately, Dugan could have been used as an inside strike runner to open up options for a ball-playing centre to be the decision maker. I get that the 'sweep play' we perfected in 2010 is effectively, but the Roosters of 2013 showed that some out-of-the-box thinking in attack can create dominance without it (if you remember, many of their set plays came as a combo of their half, 5/8 and backrowers, with fullback playing as a ball runner). The problem has always been Mary trying to shoehorn him into a role that his skillset is not suited for, rather than building an attacking structure around our best player.

Well written BennyV, that is one of the more astute posts. I couldn't agree more, a ball playing fullback is one way of playing the game but a big block busting fullback is a different way and just needs a game plan/approach that utilises this advantage within the team structure.
 

giboz71

First Grade
Messages
8,955
Well written BennyV, that is one of the more astute posts. I couldn't agree more, a ball playing fullback is one way of playing the game but a big block busting fullback is a different way and just needs a game plan/approach that utilises this advantage within the team structure.

Agree that Dugan could have been used a better way, but are there any examples of where this structure actually works?? Will he be used that way at the Sharks? Will he even play FB??

Last time a team won a comp with a fullback without a recognised passing game was the Roosters in 2013 (Minichello) And that was a team that contained Maloney, Jennings, SBW, RTS etc. All other premiership winning fullbacks in recent times..,,, Boyd, Brett Stewart, Slater, Barba, GI, Coote are all recognised passing FB’s and all had double digit try assists the year they won comps.

No coincidence that successful teams have FB’s with these skills. Agree that Dugan has a different skill set, but at over $800k a year, surely it should have been a part of his game he should have developed better.
 

Carlton

Juniors
Messages
1,224
Agree that Dugan could have been used a better way, but are there any examples of where this structure actually works?? Will he be used that way at the Sharks? Will he even play FB??


Last time a team won a comp with a fullback without a recognised passing game was the Roosters in 2013 (Minichello) And that was a team that contained Maloney, Jennings, SBW, RTS etc. All other premiership winning fullbacks in recent times..,,, Boyd, Brett Stewart, Slater, Barba, GI, Coote are all recognised passing FB’s and all had double digit try assists the year they won comps.
No coincidence that successful teams have FB’s with these skills. Agree that Dugan has a different skill set, but at over $800k a year, surely it should have been a part of his game he should have developed better.


I think that the game goes through phases where a particular type of play is the norm and most coaches basically follow the crowd. In the past there have been hard running fullbacks like Eadie, Jack, Mullins, Belcher, Humphries etc., and before you say it, I know times have changed.

It worked for the Roosters and I agree it needed a game plan and team to go with it. But just following everyone else is not necessarily the best thing. Look at the coaches that are regarded as the greats, they were all innovators and to some extent bucked the trend, Gibson, Ryan, Bennett, Bellamy, Hasler (when he was with Manly), Bath, etc.

If you have a player that has a unique skill set like Dugan, you workout how to utilise it not throw up your hands and say it's too hard or say some other coach wouldn't know how to use it so I shouldn't either.
 

Frank Facer

First Grade
Messages
5,069
Well written BennyV, that is one of the more astute posts. I couldn't agree more, a ball playing fullback is one way of playing the game but a big block busting fullback is a different way and just needs a game plan/approach that utilises this advantage within the team structure.
Well, strangely no other clubs were interested in signing Dugan to be their block busting fullback.
 

Frank Facer

First Grade
Messages
5,069
Agree that Dugan could have been used a better way, but are there any examples of where this structure actually works?? Will he be used that way at the Sharks? Will he even play FB??

Last time a team won a comp with a fullback without a recognised passing game was the Roosters in 2013 (Minichello) And that was a team that contained Maloney, Jennings, SBW, RTS etc. All other premiership winning fullbacks in recent times..,,, Boyd, Brett Stewart, Slater, Barba, GI, Coote are all recognised passing FB’s and all had double digit try assists the year they won comps.

No coincidence that successful teams have FB’s with these skills. Agree that Dugan has a different skill set, but at over $800k a year, surely it should have been a part of his game he should have developed better.
And Minichello was a lot faster than Dugan, had better acceleration and scored more tries than Dugan.
 

Crush

Coach
Messages
10,492
I think I have said before that supporting a team with Dugan in it was just exhausting. Always worried if our star player was injured as he rolled around on the ground like he was seriously injured. Then sometimes he would get injured and they would say 6 weeks only for him to be back 2 weeks later.
And then one game he would be an absolute star and be the one shining light in an otherwise mediocre team only to next week be flat and make crucial mistakes leaving the fans scratching their heads.
It was exhausting.
And I am very relieved that I don't have to watch him anymore in the red v.
 

TomRedVRiver

Bench
Messages
3,649
Dufty and Field have the potential to become solid first grade fullbacks, but they are both a long, long way off that and have a lot of work to do around positioning, organising the defense, composure under bombs and most importantly, defense. Carving up u20s and being dangerous in NRL against organised, drilled defensive walls are 2 very different beasts and Field got a lesson in last year's Charity Shield that his dummy-and-skip move wont cut it in the top grade. For every Lachlan Coote or Ben Barba, there is a handful of Evander Cummins' or Nathan Gardner's who dominate lower grades against poor defense and never make their mark in first grade.

A ball-playing fullback is super handy but hardly the be-all and end-all as a requirement for the end set of hands and decision making in an attacking set. When you've got a fullback as defensively strong and as powerful a ball runner as Dugan, he can be used an extra man wider as a ball runner and utilise other players as the 'link man'. The lock, for example, can work as first receiver with the halfback and 5/8 combining. Alternately, Dugan could have been used as an inside strike runner to open up options for a ball-playing centre to be the decision maker. I get that the 'sweep play' we perfected in 2010 is effectively, but the Roosters of 2013 showed that some out-of-the-box thinking in attack can create dominance without it (if you remember, many of their set plays came as a combo of their half, 5/8 and backrowers, with fullback playing as a ball runner). The problem has always been Mary trying to shoehorn him into a role that his skillset is not suited for, rather than building an attacking structure around our best player.

I agree with pretty much all of this, excellent post and beautifully articulated. The only thing i'd say is that I actually thought Dufty was quite good under the high ball, seemed really safe and wasn't afraid to attack the ball under pressure. The main things he needs to work on is his kick returns, defence and organisation of the defensive line. First grade experience will give him the confidence to start barking orders at the boys, I can understand how that might be a little bit difficult when you first come into the side.

The other thing i'd say is that whilst you're 100% right about there being a Nathan Gardner for every Ben Barba, Dufty was a clear cut above the competition in NSW Cup, which is not all that far beneath the NRL. It's a clear step up, for sure, but he was carving them up week in week out and his first few games for us he made an immediate impact. I'll be interested to see how he adapts when opposition teams start to figure him out and counter him.

All of this will become moot when Lomax is ready though. Zac wants the fullback spot and when he's ready, he'll get it.
 

Crush

Coach
Messages
10,492
Not harsh at all mate. He had a good debut and then it went south. I'll reserve judgement until I see him playing out of his skin. Deer in the headlights was my last impression. I may be wrong but any other coach will have a target on his back. Quick, tick. Defence will let him down every time though. A very similar player to Quinlan imo.
DQ, I was just checking out instagram and saw a current pic of Dufty. He has bulked up massively. He may be short but he is a nugget now and looks very solid and muscular. I couldn't believe he had bulked up so much! Quinlan was never that big.
 

giboz71

First Grade
Messages
8,955
If you have a player that has a unique skill set like Dugan, you workout how to utilise it not throw up your hands and say it's too hard or say some other coach wouldn't know how to use it so I shouldn't either.

If you have an elite fullback commanding top $$, I think that fullback should have the capacity to adapt his game to suit the best game plan available, rather than everyone else having to adapt to him.

GI, Slater, RTS and Tedesco all good examples. All natural ball runners who developed passing games to suit modern attacking structures.

Shame Dugan didn't have it in him to do the same.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,937
If you have an elite fullback commanding top $$, I think that fullback should have the capacity to adapt his game to suit the best game plan available, rather than everyone else having to adapt to him.

GI, Slater, RTS and Tedesco all good examples. All natural ball runners who developed passing games to suit modern attacking structures.

Shame Dugan didn't have it in him to do the same.
All said and done who exactly did Dugan have too pass it to that was going to streak away and score from 60 or 70 metres?
Maybe if we had of had the Storm wingers or a Rapana etc there would have been a real inducement to pass but Dugan was a better ball / tougher ball runner than anyone outside him because we were totally hamstrung for pace.
 

giboz71

First Grade
Messages
8,955
DQ, I was just checking out instagram and saw a current pic of Dufty. He has bulked up massively. He may be short but he is a nugget now and looks very solid and muscular. I couldn't believe he had bulked up so much! Quinlan was never that big.

Saw that too. He looks massive compared to last year.

Hope he's still quick though.
 

TomRedVRiver

Bench
Messages
3,649
Had a dream this was the team last night... If only -

1. Dufty
2. Macdonald
3. Lomax
4. Lafai
5. Koroibete
6. Widdop
7. Hunt
8. Vaughan
9. McInnes
10. Graham
11. Frizell
12. Leilua
13. De Belin

14. Mann
15. Sims
16. Ah Mau
17. Sele/Host
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,937
Had a dream this was the team last night... If only -

1. Dufty
2. Macdonald
3. Lomax
4. Lafai
5. Koroibete
6. Widdop
7. Hunt
8. Vaughan
9. McInnes
10. Graham
11. Frizell
12. Leilua
13. De Belin

14. Mann
15. Sims
16. Ah Mau
17. Sele/Host
TRVR when the sun comes in the morning the harshest of realities will dawn on you.
If your dream is important to you stay hibernated for the upcoming season and pop out and see what off season 2018 look like.
 

TomRedVRiver

Bench
Messages
3,649
TRVR when the sun comes in the morning the harshest of realities will dawn on you.
If your dream is important to you stay hibernated for the upcoming season and pop out and see what off season 2018 look like.

At least i've got SuperCoach to look forward to this year.
 

Drag Queen

Bench
Messages
2,981
DQ, I was just checking out instagram and saw a current pic of Dufty. He has bulked up massively. He may be short but he is a nugget now and looks very solid and muscular. I couldn't believe he had bulked up so much! Quinlan was never that big.
I saw the same pic on facebook. Looks like he has hit the weights Crush, Whether this helps him or not will be interesting to see. Quinny definitely had a more Slater like build, solid for his height but without the over exaggerated guns that Dufty is now sporting. Any idea what weight he is now?
 
Last edited:

possm

Coach
Messages
15,591
Sorry Poss, I don't understand why you say we have depth in our centres. I actually think this is the weakest part of our team. We'll start the season with Aitken and Lafai. Hardly 1st grade level centres IMO compared to what other teams have in the 3 & 4 jerseys.
I put most of our current problems down to coaching however, with the way things are, both Aitken and Lafai will have to improve a lot to keep their spot. I think Mann could be relied on to do a good job at either left or right centre. I also think that Lomax and to a lesser degree, Herbert and Garrick are waiting in the wings if a centre spot became available. All of these 3 youngsters are light on first grade experience but have speed, a good set of skills and enthusiasm to burn.
 

Crush

Coach
Messages
10,492
I saw the same pic on facebook. Looks like he has hit the weights Crush, Whether this helps him or not will be interesting to see Crush. Quinny definitely had a more Slater like build, solid for his height but without the over exaggerated guns that Dufty is now sporting. Any idea what weight he is now?
No idea what he weighs DQ but he does have some guns which will help with tackling and busting tackles I'd suggest. Good to see. He knew he had to bulk up and he seems to have done so.
 

Drag Queen

Bench
Messages
2,981
I agree with pretty much all of this, excellent post and beautifully articulated. The only thing i'd say is that I actually thought Dufty was quite good under the high ball, seemed really safe and wasn't afraid to attack the ball under pressure. The main things he needs to work on is his kick returns, defence and organisation of the defensive line. First grade experience will give him the confidence to start barking orders at the boys, I can understand how that might be a little bit difficult when you first come into the side.

The other thing i'd say is that whilst you're 100% right about there being a Nathan Gardner for every Ben Barba, Dufty was a clear cut above the competition in NSW Cup, which is not all that far beneath the NRL. It's a clear step up, for sure, but he was carving them up week in week out and his first few games for us he made an immediate impact. I'll be interested to see how he adapts when opposition teams start to figure him out and counter him.

All of this will become moot when Lomax is ready though. Zac wants the fullback spot and when he's ready, he'll get it.
Agree with most of this post except the NSW cup part. He was far from being an outstanding FB in the games that I managed to see. In all fairness it was only a handful though. I'm not even sure he made the ISP team of the week at all in 2017. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
 

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