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The RLIF mid season test shambles

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
Except that it's 100% accurate...

All of the problems that are being faced in this case could have been avoided if people stopped looking at the NRL (and professional RL as a whole) as just a game and a hobby, and started looking at it like what it is- a business.
If it was viewed that way everybody would have seen the problem coming from a million miles away and something could have been done to avert it, but instead everybody seems to suffer from cognitive dissidence that once you get to the international level the business side of things just stop and RL becomes a noble pursuit that is above the baser impulses of the market and the capitalist system, it's not above the baser impulses of capitalism, it never has been and it never will be.

Frankly some of you lot are starting to sound like pre-professionalism RU supporters with some of the stuff you say...

If you want things to really change you should be petitioning the NRL (and SL for that matter) for cap exemptions for clubs that lose players to injuries sustained during rep games, and petitioning for some sort of scheme for compensation to clubs that lose players during their seasons to internationals, cause if those things existed none of this would have happened and their wouldn't be an issue with this game being played in Denver...

Or maybe we don't look at it that way because that's not what it is. It's not a f**king marketing firm. Professional sport is more than just a business. And rugby league is not a business at all. I spend half my time now working to get a new competition off the ground and 6 country clubs that haven't played for 12+ years back running again and don't get paid a cent and don't want to be. When I hear that NRL clubs are against growing the game in the biggest market in the world, with so many so-called experts ignorant about the efforts to gain profile in America before the 2025 World Cup, it makes me quite angry. This is the biggest step so far in growing the game professionally in America and will hopefully lead to a successful first-tier tournament and then a successful World Cup, leading to more clubs in the USARL and RFL systems, leading to more amateur and junior clubs throughout USA and Canada and stronger USA and Canada national sides which some ways down the track will hopefully compete with first-tier countries.
But oh no, who cares about all that, Tuivasa-Sheck may pull a hammy and be out for the next 3 weeks of NRL. We can't have that!! The NRL and the clubs are so insular and short-sighted they don't give a shit about people working to grow the game, you know, the game that provides them with all their money, oh no, the Canberra Raiders lost Josh Hodgson so how are they going to keep up their 10k average crowd??

I've followed Parramatta since I was 8 years old but I'd rather see them kicked out of the comp than block players from playing internationals. If clubs want to buy international-level players then they accept the risk that these players will be playing tests and could possibly get injured in these tests. If Sticky wants to bypass losing Origin players and so buys lots of Kiwis and Poms then he has to deal with it when these Kiwis and Poms get injured playing tests! If not then he can offer them less money when they sign and have another sook when they sign elsewhere for a club that accepts the risks.

There really has been no difference from last year. The Kiwis played the ANZAC Test last year. England played Samoa. This year they are playing each other. The only difference is that it is in Denver. So where was all this complaining last year? Literally the only difference is that NRL players have to go on a plane ride. I know it might be a big and scary one but most go on flights every second week.

If all you want to do is moan about money and compensation maybe go follow the National Accounting League.
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
I really like the concept where winners of Tier 3 series qualify for RLWC Qualifiers

No one should ever be excluded from a RLWC process. Unless they havent met the basic criteria

From all countries that at least have 'observer' status in the RLEF, Latvia, Bosnia, Belgium, Catalonia, Denmark, Hungary, Netherlands & Sweden aren't participating. Other countries including Jamaica, UAE, Morocco etc. would have to qualify through another region. As in the article, Latvia and Netherlands declined. Haven't heard anything from Bosnia, Belgium or Hungary in a while and Denmark and Sweden were both defeated by Norway last year so that in a way is another level of qualification. Also their domestic scenes have gone pretty quiet.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
From all countries that at least have 'observer' status in the RLEF, Latvia, Bosnia, Belgium, Catalonia, Denmark, Hungary, Netherlands & Sweden aren't participating. Other countries including Jamaica, UAE, Morocco etc. would have to qualify through another region. As in the article, Latvia and Netherlands declined. Haven't heard anything from Bosnia, Belgium or Hungary in a while and Denmark and Sweden were both defeated by Norway last year so that in a way is another level of qualification. Also their domestic scenes have gone pretty quiet.

Hungary have been in the news quite a lot lately. They are sending domestic players to Sydney for Emerging Nations. But they must not meet minimum requirements or something.

Belgium is the odd one... how are they ranked #20 exactly?
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,762
Genuine question what difference does it make if you lose a player for a season in November or June?

None really, but the clubs are already willingly releasing players for internationals during the off season so it's not really an issue...
 

Pommy

Coach
Messages
14,657
None really, but the clubs are already willingly releasing players for internationals during the off season so it's not really an issue...

So what’s the difference?

Does the news that the players will be the best insured league internal players ever satisfy that complaint you had?
What about the fact every doctor involved has said there is no scientific basis to have any concerns over the altitude?
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,762
So what’s the difference?

As I already stated there is no difference really, but they are already releasing players in the off season so why push the point when there's already a good outcome?

Does the news that the players will be the best insured league internal players ever satisfy that complaint you had?
What about the fact every doctor involved has said there is no scientific basis to have any concerns over the altitude?

This is all completely irrelevant to my argument, my argument is a completely economical, stop trying to conflate me with the NRL clubs crappy propaganda...
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,762
Or maybe we don't look at it that way because that's not what it is.It's not a f**king marketing firm. Professional sport is more than just a business. And rugby league is not a business at all.

Are you seriously suggesting that the NRL isn't a business?

If it's more than a business then what is it?

BTW, pretty much everything can be a business, RL can be a business but doesn't always have to be, if it can be monetised then it can be a business, and RL can obviously be monetised, just look at the NRL to see RL monetised, you're just trying to conflate people that play the game just for the fun of it with people that do it professionally, which is stupid, it's a bit like saying that Hollywood isn't a business cause local theater groups all over the world hold shows in local halls and churches without making a cent just for the love of theater and acting, there for Hollywood must be the same cause reasons...

I spend half my time now working to get a new competition off the ground and 6 country clubs that haven't played for 12+ years back running again and don't get paid a cent and don't want to be.

That'd be cause you aren't professional, and don't plan to be... Or if you do plan to be professional and eventually take a wage from this country league (which would be quite hypocritical at this point) that'd be cause you have to set up a business and be selling something before you can make money from it...

When I hear that NRL clubs are against growing the game in the biggest market in the world, with so many so-called experts ignorant about the efforts to gain profile in America before the 2025 World Cup, it makes me quite angry. This is the biggest step so far in growing the game professionally in America and will hopefully lead to a successful first-tier tournament and then a successful World Cup, leading to more clubs in the USARL and RFL systems, leading to more amateur and junior clubs throughout USA and Canada and stronger USA and Canada national sides which some ways down the track will hopefully compete with first-tier countries.
But oh no, who cares about all that, Tuivasa-Sheck may pull a hammy and be out for the next 3 weeks of NRL. We can't have that!! The NRL and the clubs are so insular and short-sighted they don't give a shit about people working to grow the game, you know, the game that provides them with all their money, oh no, the Canberra Raiders lost Josh Hodgson so how are they going to keep up their 10k average crowd??

I've followed Parramatta since I was 8 years old but I'd rather see them kicked out of the comp than block players from playing internationals. If clubs want to buy international-level players then they accept the risk that these players will be playing tests and could possibly get injured in these tests. If Sticky wants to bypass losing Origin players and so buys lots of Kiwis and Poms then he has to deal with it when these Kiwis and Poms get injured playing tests! If not then he can offer them less money when they sign and have another sook when they sign elsewhere for a club that accepts the risks.

There really has been no difference from last year. The Kiwis played the ANZAC Test last year. England played Samoa. This year they are playing each other. The only difference is that it is in Denver. So where was all this complaining last year? Literally the only difference is that NRL players have to go on a plane ride. I know it might be a big and scary one but most go on flights every second week.

If all you want to do is moan about money and compensation maybe go follow the National Accounting League.

That's a lot of appeals to emotion... To bad it's all completely irrelevant to my argument!

I'm not the NRL clubs! I'm not saying that there are medical issues with playing a game in Denver (at least no more medical issues than any other game of RL that is), and I'm not supporting them in this regard.
I'm not Ricky Stuart or the Canberra Raiders either for that matter, and I don't necessarily agree with them just cause I support the team (trust me that definitely isn't the case, the Raiders would hate me with a passion if I had any power in the ACT or in RL).

So how about you stop conflating me with them cause obviously I'm not them!

Look when you break it down we want the same thing, it's just your argument for that thing is a moral one (and frankly a pretty poor moral argument frankly, but that is neither here nor there) and mine is a practical argument.
Now tell me what you think is more likely to convince the clubs to come over to our way of thinking- a convoluted moral argument that the clubs obviously don't care about cause if they did they'd already be upholding it, or an appeal to their wallet? Cause I'm pretty sure that you're more likely to do some thing if it's good for your wallet, the NRL clubs are no different...
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
Are you seriously suggesting that the NRL isn't a business?

If it's more than a business then what is it?

BTW, pretty much everything can be a business, RL can be a business but doesn't always have to be, if it can be monetised then it can be a business, and RL can obviously be monetised, just look at the NRL to see RL monetised, you're just trying to conflate people that play the game just for the fun of it with people that do it professionally, which is stupid, it's a bit like saying that Hollywood isn't a business cause local theater groups all over the world hold shows in local halls and churches without making a cent just for the love of theater and acting, there for Hollywood must be the same cause reasons...



That'd be cause you aren't professional, and don't plan to be... Or if you do plan to be professional and eventually take a wage from this country league (which would be quite hypocritical at this point) that'd be cause you have to set up a business and be selling something before you can make money from it...



That's a lot of appeals to emotion... To bad it's all completely irrelevant to my argument!

I'm not the NRL clubs! I'm not saying that there are medical issues with playing a game in Denver (at least no more medical issues than any other game of RL that is), and I'm not supporting them in this regard.
I'm not Ricky Stuart or the Canberra Raiders either for that matter, and I don't necessarily agree with them just cause I support the team (trust me that definitely isn't the case, the Raiders would hate me with a passion if I had any power in the ACT or in RL).

So how about you stop conflating me with them cause obviously I'm not them!

Look when you break it down we want the same thing, it's just your argument for that thing is a moral one (and frankly a pretty poor moral argument frankly, but that is neither here nor there) and mine is a practical argument.
Now tell me what you think is more likely to convince the clubs to come over to our way of thinking- a convoluted moral argument that the clubs obviously don't care about cause if they did they'd already be upholding it, or an appeal to their wallet? Cause I'm pretty sure that you're more likely to do some thing if it's good for your wallet, the NRL clubs are no different...

Nope, wasn't suggesting that at all. I'm saying rugby league isn't a business. Rugby league is a sport and involves more than just the top level clubs and players. Professional sport is also more than a business. We are in this not just because of money. We are about growing the sport and spreading our great game to be enjoyed by kids and adults in both participation and viewership. The NRL is a business but the way you keep comparing it to regular industries is idiotic. 'Would you let your employees go work for another company for 2 weeks' nonsense.

Not everything in my argument is directed at you. The only thing there relative to you is that you keep saying we should compensate the clubs when I say we shouldn't give a shit about the clubs. They knew the risks that their players might get injured when they signed origin & test players.

And no actually I'm more inclined to do something if it is the right thing to do. And that's tenfold when it comes to my greatest passion. If I cared about money when it comes to rugby league I'd be about $50k richer.
The RLIF and NRL need to prioritise international football and tell the clubs to f**k off. I don't give a shit what the clubs want, if we listen to the clubs the rules would change every week
 

Pommy

Coach
Messages
14,657
As I already stated there is no difference really, but they are already releasing players in the off season so why push the point when there's already a good outcome?



This is all completely irrelevant to my argument, my argument is a completely economical, stop trying to conflate me with the NRL clubs crappy propaganda...

Push what point? What’s the good outcome?

Irrelevant to your point now it’s been fixed? Before you wouldn’t stop banging on about it. I’m as correct you really are just making it up as you go along.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,762
Push what point? What’s the good outcome?

The clubs are already releasing their players during off seasons, so we are all ready getting the good outcome that we want in that regard, so it's not an issue so why would you push the point of whats the difference between losing a player in June or November...

Irrelevant to your point now it’s been fixed? Before you wouldn’t stop banging on about it. I’m as correct you really are just making it up as you go along.

Banging on about what?
 

Pommy

Coach
Messages
14,657
The clubs are already releasing their players during off seasons, so we are all ready getting the good outcome that we want in that regard, so it's not an issue so why would you push the point of whats the difference between losing a player in June or November...



Banging on about what?

You mean you are getting the outcome you want.

Insurance
 

deal.with.it

Juniors
Messages
2,086
Except that it's 100% accurate...

All of the problems that are being faced in this case could have been avoided if people stopped looking at the NRL (and professional RL as a whole) as just a game and a hobby, and started looking at it like what it is- a business.
If it was viewed that way everybody would have seen the problem coming from a million miles away and something could have been done to avert it, but instead everybody seems to suffer from cognitive dissidence that once you get to the international level the business side of things just stop and RL becomes a noble pursuit that is above the baser impulses of the market and the capitalist system, it's not above the baser impulses of capitalism, it never has been and it never will be.

Frankly some of you lot are starting to sound like pre-professionalism RU supporters with some of the stuff you say...

If you want things to really change you should be petitioning the NRL (and SL for that matter) for cap exemptions for clubs that lose players to injuries sustained during rep games, and petitioning for some sort of scheme for compensation to clubs that lose players during their seasons to internationals, cause if those things existed none of this would have happened and their wouldn't be an issue with this game being played in Denver...

It’s not a standard business contract. Governing bodies receive government funding to develop sport and create cohesive, healthy communities. Governments also fund NGBs to develop players and have a competitive national team - because this again helps to create strong communities.

So that all happens, and then an NRL club jumps in, pays a lump sum and says “you can only work for me!”

??

Of course not! The club signs the player knowing full well that rep honours are a part of the sport, the game, the hobby ... the one that is used by NGBs and government - heck, even the EU - to create better societies. That same game that only 1% of players are actually paid to play.

So, as much as I get you argument, rugby league is not a straight forward business as you make it out to be.
 

deal.with.it

Juniors
Messages
2,086
Are you seriously suggesting that the NRL isn't a business?

If it's more than a business then what is it?

BTW, pretty much everything can be a business, RL can be a business but doesn't always have to be, if it can be monetised then it can be a business, and RL can obviously be monetised, just look at the NRL to see RL monetised, you're just trying to conflate people that play the game just for the fun of it with people that do it professionally, which is stupid, it's a bit like saying that Hollywood isn't a business cause local theater groups all over the world hold shows in local halls and churches without making a cent just for the love of theater and acting, there for Hollywood must be the same cause reasons...
...

No ... it’s like saying film isn’t Hollywood and film isn’t only professional business.

NRL isn’t rugby league and rugby league isn’t only professional
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,762
Nope, wasn't suggesting that at all. I'm saying rugby league isn't a business. Rugby league is a sport and involves more than just the top level clubs and players.

Anything that can be monetised can be a business, so yeah RL can be a business... So is juggling professionally, playing video games professionally, painting, etc, etc. If you monetised it it becomes a business, and guess what all the levels of RL that we are talking about are 100% monetised!

Professional sport is also more than a business. We are in this not just because of money. We are about growing the sport and spreading our great game to be enjoyed by kids and adults in both participation and viewership.

Are you sure? Are you certain that the NRL, NRL clubs, etc, aren't only about the money, are you sure that they aren't only interested in growth cause of the money it brings in?

That's you projecting your ideals and what you want the NRL, RFL, etc, to be about, and how you want them to operate, it's simply not the case, they're just as slimy as any other business when it comes to profit hunting, the only difference is that unlike some businesses they hunt prestige and glory as well as money...

I mean seriously if the NRL and NRL clubs weren't only about the money then a lot more money from the last TV broadcasting rights deals would have gone to the grassroots then into the pockets of the clubs and players...

The NRL is a business but the way you keep comparing it to regular industries is idiotic. 'Would you let your employees go work for another company for 2 weeks' nonsense.

It's no different than any other business that's workers are primarily made up of independent contractors, no different at all, you want it to be, but when you get down to it's exactly the same as everywhere else, so yeah it's defiantly comparable to "regular industries".

It's a pretty basic entertainment business, it runs in a very similar fashion to acting, the music industry, other professional sports businesses, the bloody circus for gods sake, or aren't they "regular" enough for you, don't they count.

And when you get down to it what would the clubs be doing? They'd be letting their employees go work for another company (the RFL or NZRL) for a week or so without getting anything in return for it. The above example is literally what is being expected of them...

Not everything in my argument is directed at you. The only thing there relative to you is that you keep saying we should compensate the clubs when I say we shouldn't give a shit about the clubs.

Firstly not all forms of compensation are monetary, you would probably support many of the potential forms that compensation could take.

Secondly you should give a shit about the clubs cause if they don't exist then the main source of money that supports international RL would be gone and it'd fall over, and their'd be no regular source of income for players, which would make it impossible for it to be feasible to make a living playing RL which would kill international RL as well, as every player worth a damn would move into other professions to support themselves and leave RL behind...

They knew the risks that their players might get injured when they signed origin & test players.

Yeah they knew the risk that players may be selected in rep squads, they never agreed to financially subsidise international football to the direct detriment of their bussiness for no return though and that's what is happening in this case as the NRL clubs see no return from either the RFL and/or the NZRL...

Also just because they knew the risk doesn't mean that it's right that they should be exploited, the farmer knew the risk that there might be oil found on his land, doesn't mean that the oil company has the right to come in and destroy his farm to get it without reimbursing him...

And no actually I'm more inclined to do something if it is the right thing to do. And that's tenfold when it comes to my greatest passion. If I cared about money when it comes to rugby league I'd be about $50k richer.
The RLIF and NRL need to prioritise international football and tell the clubs to f**k off. I don't give a shit what the clubs want, if we listen to the clubs the rules would change every week

Firstly what is "right" and what is best are two very different things, it isn't "right" to trade one life for ten, but it is "best".

Also on what planet is it "right" to knowingly damage a business for your own gain without compensating them for their loss, I'll say it again, if this was a mum and pop business being expected to suffer similar treatment you and the rest of the country would be outraged, absolutely furious, and you'd demand that they were compensated, and you'd be bloody right too, but for some reason you've got some strange cognitive dissidence that an NRL club isn't a 'real business' like the "regular industries" therefore they don't count for some abstract reasons...

What is it, you see them as rich therefore they can afford it? Even if they are rich is that the "right thing to do", and yeah maybe they can afford it once, or twice, but what happens when the precedent is set and it starts happening regularly? Could they afford it then?

You keep saying that I'm silly and idiotic, but you are the one saying that the NRL isn't a business that it's something else that functions exactly like a business but isn't cause reasons, you are the one trying to justify forcing businesses to give up their contracted employees to separate businesses (yes the RFL and NZRL are separate from the NRL, tough at this point the NZRL probably shouldn't be frankly) without compensation and to the direct determent to their business, you are the one suggesting that would be the right thing to do when it's completely avoidable and frankly that is quite abhorrent.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,762
It’s not a standard business contract. Governing bodies receive government funding to develop sport and create cohesive, healthy communities. Governments also fund NGBs to develop players and have a competitive national team - because this again helps to create strong communities.

So that all happens, and then an NRL club jumps in, pays a lump sum and says “you can only work for me!”

??

Of course not! The club signs the player knowing full well that rep honours are a part of the sport, the game, the hobby ... the one that is used by NGBs and government - heck, even the EU - to create better societies. That same game that only 1% of players are actually paid to play.

So, as much as I get you argument, rugby league is not a straight forward business as you make it out to be.

I never said that, if you read through what I've said you'd know that I didn't (though what I've said is now spread across two threads, so yeah not you're fault that you missed it).

Everything above is true to varying degrees (through frankly government investment is negligible in RL (especially outside of Australia and PNG), and none of that investment is to develop players for national teams or really to create strong communities, at beast those are political sound bites, it's all about tourism and drawing money into their economies, and buying the odd vote, with the odd notable exception more often then not they couldn't care less about the other stuff ), but it falls down when we get to the point that the clubs never agreed to subsidise the players time while playing for their (the players) nations, and that is where we are at and what is happening...

Clubs are being expected to incur losses (no matter how relatively minor those losses may be perceived as) while players are away playing internationals or if they are injured during an international, and they aren't being compensated for the time that they are away cause they aren't playing for their nation, so they aren't seeing the lost money back in grants.
The rules around players being released for internationals are outdated and aren't designed to address this, they assume that the club is releasing players to play for the country that the club is based in, in this case they aren't.

That is where we are at and the problem that I'm pointing out and needs to be fixed if you ever want to see international RL truly supported by the NRL clubs, and the way that basically every other major sport has handled this problem has been compensation through grants directly from the international body of the sport (FIFA for example gives lump sum grants to governing bodies that then distributes that money through grants to the clubs, other sports have been known to give grants directly to the clubs themselves as well like I believe basket ball on occasion), but that isn't feasible in RL cause the RLIF is flat broke, so we need to be creative to fix the problem or we need to deal with fighting the clubs every time we want an international (which is bad for everyone in my opinion).

Now to fair to the clubs (not many have been in this case) they have been quite accommodating towards this when it's been in the off season cause the effects on their business has been negligible, but now that international RL is expanding into the season it's now starting to effect them more and they are resisting it, if we want them to stop resisting it and even to start actively supporting it then forcing them to release their players on threat of sanctions isn't going to help, it might get the games up, but next time that a game is organised we'll have the same fight on our hands, however if we make it so that internationals at least don't effect the clubs business at all and at best is even directly profitable for them then they'll actively support it and we'll never have to deal with this issue again...
 

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