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Rationalisation of Sydney

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
So it’s not that you believe rugby league is in a worse position today but you do believe Australian rugby league is in a worse position?

Yes. Australian rugbyleague is in a worse position. International rugby league should be on a far better position thand what it is. Some of us know why.Others don't care!
 
Messages
14,796
I think what the NRL really need to weigh is if they export a Sydney club elsewhere, are they going to experience a net growth in fans and memberships.

I'd really rather this not be a forced move, let it become attrition and the poorly managed clubs who cannot stay solvent then have the option to move to stay alive. The youngest clubs in Sydney are more than 50 years old (yeah Wests and the Dragons are technically only 20 years old, but the two clubs that make up Wests are foundation clubs and while Illawarra has only been around since the 80's the Dragons have been around since the 20's,) so there's a fair bit of tradition to uproot and move under the guise of expansion.

Surely the NRL would look at expansion anyway, and then identify additional areas they would like to target in the event that a club does come to the point where relocation is the only means of survival?

Ideally all the clubs would appoint good administration that will actually see long term survival of the Sydney clubs where they currently are. Hard to secure the corporate dollar when players behave like f**kwits though, they talk about being partners in the game and are directly contributing to the negative perception of the game.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
12,001
Easts should move on, they've never had to suffer through either mergers or being kicked out, besides if your city without a club, like Perth, Christchurch or Adelaide would you want a well run brand like the roosters, or a financially struggling club like manly?
Why is Cronulla always the club that gets mentioned when relocations are brought up, they have a good pocket of southern sydney, and is well supported,
Easts have bugger all territory, souths engulfs it redfern round to maroubra,
If they were smart, they'd re-re-name themselves again to North Sydney Roosters and try to take more games at Gosford, NSO and Allianz
 

tri_colours

Juniors
Messages
1,828
Easts should move on, they've never had to suffer through either mergers or being kicked out, besides if your city without a club, like Perth, Christchurch or Adelaide would you want a well run brand like the roosters, or a financially struggling club like manly?
Why is Cronulla always the club that gets mentioned when relocations are brought up, they have a good pocket of southern sydney, and is well supported,
Easts have bugger all territory, souths engulfs it redfern round to maroubra,
If they were smart, they'd re-re-name themselves again to North Sydney Roosters and try to take more games at Gosford, NSO and Allianz


Unlike Penrith you mean!
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
12,001
Penrith have the west of blacktown as far as bathurst and beyond as junior catchment goes, and if they had a spread of home games throught the country areas, and less in penrith, i'd still be supporting them,
I'd rather not see any team get relocated though, but atleast use sydneys landscape better than what it currently is, hence spreading games north of Sydney would only serve roosters better, as manly aren't doing a lot of good in the northern suburbs, other than northern beaches only.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
12,001
Imagine the rivalry of NORTH Sydney vs South Sydney, its an easy name change
especially since North sydney bears are currently feeding them, a merger between Manly and Norths was never going to work as they were fierce rivals, and northerners would not take to the eagles being a emblem to follow, but Easts and Norths combined, might sway the older fans back, or at least get more new fans north of the bridge, especially since theyve been successful recently
 
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MugaB

Coach
Messages
12,001
And colors of Red, White, Navy/Midnight blue very close to the old bears colors of Red, White & Black
Wearing a loosely reminiscent jersey to bears like the citibank style jersey with the navy instead of blue at NSO, or the red with navy squares of 80s norths, would be cool too
 

LeagueXIII

First Grade
Messages
5,966
So it’s not that you believe rugby league is in a worse position today but you do believe Australian rugby league is in a worse position?

I think the image of the game has been trashed for years which makes it difficult to attract new supporters and big sponsors.
 

Pommy

Coach
Messages
14,657
I think the image of the game has been trashed for years which makes it difficult to attract new supporters and big sponsors.

Isn’t RL the most watched TV sport in Australia? The playing ranks are jam packed with players who come from backgrounds that would traditionally be union fans.
The game seems to be attracting new fans.
 

LeagueXIII

First Grade
Messages
5,966
Isn’t RL the most watched TV sport in Australia? The playing ranks are jam packed with players who come from backgrounds that would traditionally be union fans.
The game seems to be attracting new fans.

On TV maybe, but the hardcore passionate fans are in the ground....are we the most watched sport in this criteria and are we growing at any great rate............
 

Pommy

Coach
Messages
14,657
On TV maybe, but the hardcore passionate fans are in the ground....are we the most watched sport in this criteria and are we growing at any great rate............

No clearly not and with the state election today any chance to try and rectify that issue by not having garabage stadiums in Sydney is likely to go down the shitter.
But you said the game wasn’t attracting new fans, not that it wasn’t attracting hardcore passionate fans who attend games.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,849
Leaving the terriblempff season aside I’d say the game is stronger all around than in the early 90’s. Bigger attendances, bigger tv audiences, a shed load more revenue, higher profile nationally. Once we get expansion sorted out and a stronger footprint we will see the game move up another level.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
12,001
West Coast Pirates will help that,
Still feel that this new side will need some marquee players straight away, might be difficult as most get locked for long contracts, my fear is we will have another titans in the league, where we should have another storm
NRL could ask a few teams to shift some home games to perth in the meantime, like Tigers, Bulldogs, Panthers, Rabbits and Eels have a home games there, and like wise in Adelaide, have Dragons, Roosters, Sea Eagles and Sharks play a home game
Just to wet the appitite of the cities
Maybe use the split rounds around state of Origin there at each city like a magic round Saturday/Sunday double headers, see what the cravings are like
 

anjado

Juniors
Messages
1,092
This all stems from the rigged criteria in 1999, I made a post on the same topic on another Rugby League forum yesterday. If they set fair and proper criteria and not just one that the Roosters couldn't fail the game would have been far better off in the long run.

They should have merged teams based on geography, common sense and forward planning. If they had done it properly they would have ended up with 6 full-time Sydney clubs covering every area of Sydney with 2 part-time Sydney clubs filling in the gaps and covering other big areas.

First thing's first relocations

* North Sydney relocate to the Central Coast whilst playing a couple of games a year at North Sydney Oval. Only the weather and the rigged criteria stopped this from coming to fruition which is why I will always have sympathy for the bears.

* St George still merge with Illawarra but are more based in Wollongong with maybe 3-4 games per year at Kogarah.

Now we move on to the Mergers

* Easts and Balmain ( Sydney Tigers/ some new name) - This merger makes far more sense than Balmain and Wests or allowing the Roosters to stand alone.

Both clubs complimented each other's weaknesses.

Easts are renowned for having no real junior base with only four clubs Balmain currently have a junior base of roughly 11 clubs after several folded in the '90s with the merger these clubs maybe could have stayed around giving this club a junior base of 15 clubs and most of the inner city to Bondi.

Easts with the exception of the Macca's giveaways for the early Monday night games in 1996 weren't massively supported. If you remove those two crowds their average since moving into the SFS in 1988 was roughly 9,143 per game. Though their averages were improving after their spending spree. Balmain, on the other hand, drew an average of 8,917 at Leichhardt since 1988. But Balmain's crowds rose rapidly when moving back to Leichhardt in 1997 they averaged 10,213 which doesn't seem massive but Balmain was a poor team at the time with no star players and Leichhardt oval was basically dilapidated when I went there in 1996.

So you have one club the Roosters beginning to grow by signing every decent player on the market and you have the Tigers who were starved for success since their last finals appearance in 1990. Yet the difference in attendance really wasn't that great so putting them together could have driven their attendance to close to 20,000 per week.

In terms of success, the Roosters and the Tigers from the first season after WW2 1946-1999 both had only won two premierships each so neither were massively successful for a long period of time the Roosters hadn't won the competition for 24 years and Balmain 30 years.

The main reason though this merger makes sense is due to geography and demographics. When the new AFL team moved to Sydney everyone took the piss out of them because they dubbed their Sydney derby as the battle of the bridge, Sydney Harbour Bridge and Anzac Bridge. The main reason for this is that nobody considers Anzac bridge which is in Rozelle which is one suburb away from Balmain in Western Sydney everyone sees it as part of the actual city of Sydney and has about as much to do with Western Sydney as the Opera House. So Balmain should have been considered an inner city club but for some reason with their move to Parramatta in the mid-'90s and merger with a club based in Campbelltown were more considered a Western Sydney club.

Leichhardt Oval is only 8.9km from the SFS, compared to the 47km it is away from Campbelltown, 21km from Parramatta stadium. So asking a team to merge with another team from less than 10km away who isn't your main rival isn't really a huge ask in the grand scheme of things.


* Canterbury and Wests (South-West Bulldogs)

Another merger which made complete sense both clubs are situated in the South West there is a big gap of 37km between them but the reason this merger makes sense is very simple. Canterbury in the late '90s was looking at relocating to Liverpool which is only 20km from Campbelltown. Wests had only been in Campbelltown for 12 years and were the club most in danger of merging due to appalling on-field results.

So all that had to happen was the NRL encouraging Canterbury to press ahead with plans to relocate to Liverpool they could have played at Campbelltown also.

Basically, this club covers the South-West of Sydney given Campbelltown only get about 4 games a year this would have been a big improvement for the area. The club would have a huge catchment area from Bankstown to Campbelltown.


* Souths and Cronulla (South Sydney Sharks)

I will be honest this would have been the toughest merger but it makes sense if St George all but relocate to Wollongong, It just incorporates Cronulla into South Sydney, The distance between Cronulla's stadium and SFS is 24km which would be asking a lot but it's still close enough you could still play a couple of games in Cronulla but this team would represent Southern Sydney from Redfern to the Shire.

Souths were terrible on the field for most of the '90s whereas Cronulla was good if both sets of fans could have accepted this merger you could have potentially two really big draws playing out of the SFS.

You keep both clubs rivalries going, St George and Cronulla and Souths and Easts they may have gotten bigger.


Stand Alone clubs

* Manly the game needs a presence on the North Shore, the bears would have still existed and the best local rivalry of the '90s would have lived on. Manly could have concentrated on refurbishing Brookvale Oval but they are a vital and important part of the league and shouldn't have been forced to merge with their main rivals.

* Parramatta which is practically a city within Sydney so they were easily the main team to keep.

* Penrith now Penrith aren't a massive club but due to the enormous junior base available to them, they will always be valuable to the game. They are also too far away really to merge with any other side except Parramatta who should be big enough to stand alone.

So there you have it this is what should have happened. You have 6 full-time Sydney clubs all representing geographically logical parts of the city in fact here are the catchment areas of all clubs in terms of population.


Central Sydney/ Inner West (Easts/Balmain) - 420,000

Southern Sydney (Souths/Cronulla) - 330,000

South West Sydney (Canterbury/Wests) - 580,000

Central Coast (Norths) - 395,000

Wollongong (St George/Illawarra) - 428,000

Manly - 365,000

Parramatta - 500,000

Penrith - 370,000

It would have been an even spread of the population amongst 8 teams in greater Sydney along with Canberra and Newcastle.

That would have left room one day for at least 8 logical expansion clubs.

Auckland
Brisbane x2
Gold Coast
Melbourne
North Queensland
Perth
Wellington

Then you can add Adelaide and another one, realistically we could have gone to 24 teams over 23 rounds if this had happened because all teams in Sydney could cultivate their own players easier.

But unfortunately, Rugby League didn't do things properly and allowed a criterion which was really to protect one team in the competition. If that never happened we could have saved every club in some form and the majority of people would have eventually accepted it because they would still have a team rather than the mess of forced relocations we face today.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
12,001
This i like, unfortunately souths merging fullstop will never happen,
And Roosters are way too influential in all these "NRL" decisions, but the other mergers are spot on magpies/bulldogs was stupidity of not coming to fruition, their catchment would have been huge.
Cronulla/Easts can work too, but East Sydney Tigers would have been a far better sell for the game, Mitchell peirce would be G.O.A.T if that happened JrJr...

Manly isn't vital, they have "apparently"
a million people to represent north of the harbour, yet have no juniors presence, no money, a rough patch of ground called brookvale oval, which they do nothing but self serve the northern beaches, and the odd game in NZ, if they were vital, they'd still have a presence in gosford and the north shore, they've had over 15 years to rectify that debacle of a merger, let another team look after the north, boot out the selfish sea eagles. Or at least relocate them
 

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