2023-2028 next tv deal discussion

[Perth Red]

One thing that needs to be considered is that in the Nine statement, it did say "Nine expects a P & L benefit, resulting from changes in rights fees and associated production and service arrangements"

So part of the savings could be production costs.

I hope so, $64mill (34.5%) is a ridiculous amount to lose considering they have only lost 3 full rounds of footy coverage (13%)!

 

[colly]

I wouldn't put to much faith in the numbers Leo Shanhan from the Australian puts forward especially for a competitor.. Why no mention of the $25 million Fox pays to Nine. Again no mention for the Saturday games for which Fox pays Nine $35 million. I take the Perth Red on this one and remember the deal as he says.. Nine won the Bid for 4 of the best games incl a Saturday game for 925 million overall or 185 million p/a. They pay NRL 185 per year or 925 million overall. Fox pays 55 million ( to Nine) for super Saturday (5th game Foxtel/ and Nine now 3 games.) and Simulcast. So if Nine gets a 64 million discount this year it means 185 million - 64 = 121 million . Easy.

 

[Steel Saints]

Two different numbers
"Nine were due to pay $90-$100 million"

"These estimates included a $130m saving as a result of the cancellation of NRL Season 2020."

 

[The_Wookie]

IThe only Asset I can see AFL has, despite much greater revenue, is Marvel stadium and they got that at a knock down price from the Vic govt and borrowed $200mill to buy it.

The AFL didnt get it from the Victorian Government, the stadium was entirely owned by a private consortium. The AFL had a deal to play there until 2025 at which point they would own it for virtually nothing. They DID get the freehold title to the land for $30m - which was cheap, but so was every other land parcel in the area at the time due to the Government desperately trying to redevelop the whole docklands precinct.

They did however borrow 200m to buy it. While the asset itself has depreciated, evidently the underground car park is worth a small fortune, as is the land value in the Melbourne CBD.

 

[The_Wookie]

I wouldn't put to much faith in the numbers Leo Shanhan from the Australian puts forward especially for a competitor.. Why no mention of the $25 million Fox pays to Nine. Again no mention for the Saturday games for which Fox pays Nine $35 million. I take the Perth Red on this one and remember the deal as he says.. Nine won the Bid for 4 of the best games incl a Saturday game for 925 million overall or 185 million p/a. They pay NRL 185 per year or 925 million overall. Fox pays 55 million ( to Nine) for super Saturday (5th game Foxtel/ and Nine now 3 games.) and Simulcast. So if Nine gets a 64 million discount this year it means 185 million - 64 = 121 million . Easy.

Its not just News Limited papers reporting this. Its Nine as well.

 

[taipan]

Glad we are in agreement that the advance wasnt a loan requiring payment this year, but was in fact an advance that was being paid through deferred annual tv contract payment. Which makes the argument that the NRL didnt have cash reserves to the tune of $126million false. Only scenario that changes is if both Fix and Nine contracts are torn up and they demand the $49mill remaining from the advance payment back, a very unlikely scenario.


Ive stated why, no-one knew in March how long shut down would go for. $126mill cash would have probably got us to end of season, maybe. The loan was a back up. AFL had bigger cash reserve but got a line of credit for $650mill, same reason.

Yes we have no assets, why? Because the money has been spent on the clubs and players and to a lessor degree grassroots and non media revenue activities. Smith knew we needed a savings fund to invest or keep for a rainy day, he had two years of surpluses building it up, Greenberg/commission came in and spent it, and then some. By 2018 they had decided once again they needed it and Greenberg/Commission have had two more years of healthy surpluses. Problem is whenever the NRL generates a surplus the clubs want it or the NRL feels obliged to spend it on grassroots!
The only Asset I can see AFL has, despite much greater revenue, is Marvel stadium and they got that at a knock down price from the Vic govt and borrowed $200mill to buy it. I'm sure if NSW Govt offered Bankwest to NRL for 1/2 its value they would snap it up as well! NONE of the other sports codes in the country, or around the world for that matter, have any real assets either, its not something most sports bodies do beyond a stadium or offices for their primary use.
Not surprised we couldnt get a loan here, between the games reputation which gets tarnished in the media consistently and the fact that most revenue is game generated, and there was no games it wasnt a safe investment for the bank to make. I've heard conflicting reports on how AFL got their line of credit, some say due to Marvel stadium (though this still has 40% mortgaged) whilst Eddie Macguire let slip that The Vic Govt had underwritten the credit.

Back to the facts: The game is losing at least $27.5mill a year (potentially $64mill this year though that figure cant be corroborated) from the Ch9 deal.
NRL is refusing to share what the Fox deal is, first time in forever they are refusing to say what they have got. I wonder why?


Don't start me on Smith.I've said my piece .
From what I gather the figures and it's still damn confusing from different sources:-
Thus year 9 pays $64m 2020 (the big hit) down $56m any wonder.
$120m 2021
$125m 2022
2021/2022 down $27.5m per year

Can't get the Foxtel deal for 2020 remainder nor 2021/22 but no doubt a discount.
Then $1bn for 5 years from 2023/2027 Foxtel.
I heard a figure around in toto $1.7bn
From that I assume $309m remainder of contract (just over $100m pa) for channel 9
Plus $1b for 5 years Foxtel 2023/2027
That means remaining $400m over rest of 2020.2022 (2 1/2 years)

The banks with all the demands placed on them were being conservative, they wanted asset backing, and we couldn't provide it.Hell the AFL have had their fair share of issues, including some really good traffic/crime ones in the last couple of months, which you conveniently overlook.

The Vic Govt the way they operate ,they would be in the pocket of an SP bookie if it involved the AFL.
You're right, there are conflicting reports when it comes to media details on financials, whether deliberate or incompetent who knows.The Vic Govt and media are embarrassingly close to the AFL,as is the ABC,and dare Im say it ch9 .

Maybe the Wookie is able to spell out the split up.One paper indicates the $1bn is for the Foxtel extension (5 years)

 

[Perth Red]

They still bought the freehold and management rights for well below market value. AFL bought the management rights for remaining 9 years from MLS and took freehold ownership of the stadium from the consortium owners. All up it cost them $200mill to do this which they had to borrow. Marvel is estimated at $1billion value though profit margins on it seem slim.
Point stands, if NSw Govt offered NRL a deal like that they would snap their arm off! Imagine if they had built bankwest and said NRL could take over ownership in 25 years time if it chipped in $20million. You think NRL would take it up?

Theres a lot of detail on the MArvel deal in here: http://www.footyindustry.com/?page_id=2424

 

[Perth Red]

Don't start me on Smith.I've said my piece .
From what I gather the figures and it's still damn confusing from different sources:-
Thus year 9 pays $64m 2020 (the big hit) down $56m any wonder.
$120m 2021
$125m 2022
2021/2022 down $27.5m per year

Wouldnt it look more like:

$185mill original contract (minus contra of around $12.5mill) = should be $172.5mill cash a year
Then we have to take off the advance deferred payment which who knows how much of it is fox or ch9 and how much still owes to each party. We are led to believe there was still $49mill to come off contracts for final three years.
The $64mill for this year is unclear as that is the revised cost savings Nine are claiming in their stock market issue but unclear if that is all cash savings, cash and contra savings or cash, contra and production cost savings.
At this point Id say its pretty much impossible to say what the NRl is actually going to get paid!
We can guess at:
2020 $172.5mill - $64mill - advance payment of $17mill (50% of remaining amount/3) = $91.5mill
2021 $172.5mill - $27.5mill - $17mill = $128mill
2022 $172.5mill-$27.5mill-$17mill = $128mill

= total for 20-22 of $347.5mill

But that is pure educated guess work!

 

[The_Wookie]

They still bought the freehold and management rights for well below market value. AFL bought the management rights for remaining 9 years from MLS and took freehold ownership of the stadium from the consortium owners. All up it cost them $200mill to do this which they had to borrow. Marvel is estimated at $1billion value though profit margins on it seem slim.
Point stands, if NSw Govt offered NRL a deal like that they would snap their arm off! Imagine if they had built bankwest and said NRL could take over ownership in 25 years time if it chipped in $20million. You think NRL would take it up?

1. It was market value for the area at the time - it was part of the wider Docklands precinct development
2. It was a BOOT project specifically designed for the AFL to do it this way with the option of buying in early.In return they had to play 40-46 games a year for 25 years - and still pay ground rental costs.
3. They bought the management rights at the negotiated commercial rate with the owner.

Theres a lot of detail on the MArvel deal in here: http://www.footyindustry.com/?page_id=2424

You know i wrote this right?

Did the NRL even try?

 

[colly]

Wouldnt it look more like:

$185mill original contract (minus contra of around $12.5mill) = should be $172.5mill cash a year
Then we have to take off the advance deferred payment which who knows how much of it is fox or ch9 and how much still owes to each party. We are led to believe there was still $49mill to come off contracts for final three years.
The $64mill for this year is unclear as that is the revised cost savings Nine are claiming in their stock market issue but unclear if that is all cash savings, cash and contra savings or cash, contra and production cost savings.
At this point Id say its pretty much impossible to say what the NRl is actually going to get paid!
We can guess at:
2020 $172.5mill - $64mill - advance payment of $17mill (50% of remaining amount/3) = $91.5mill
2021 $172.5mill - $27.5mill - $17mill = $128mill
2022 $172.5mill-$27.5mill-$17mill = $128mill

= total for 20-22 of $347.5mill

But that is pure educated guess work!

Here is the how the $185 Nine to NRL yearly payment happened .

https://mumbrella.com.au/nine-retains-rights-for-nrl-in-four-year-deal-311053

The Nine Network has retained the free-to-air rights for the NRL for the 2018 to 2022 seasons in a deal worth $185m per year.

The network will broadcast four premium live games a week onThursday,FridayandSaturdayevenings and Sunday afternoons, as well as the Finals series, State-of-Origin, and other special event matches.

Nine has also acquired all free streaming rights for these games.


This (above) was the orignal Dave smith deal excluding Foxtel.

Deals were done ( including large advancemnts which frankly cloud the situation ) but we see how the Nine Foxtel deal finished up.

https://www.adnews.com.au/news/nrl-...with-fox-sports-24-hour-nrl-channel-to-launch

In August, Nine secured the NRL free-to-air and streaming rights for the 2018-2022 seasons in a deal worth $185 million per year, but today's news sees a new five-year sports rights deal between Fox Sports, Nine Network and Telstra.
Continuing on,
For the 2018 to 2022 seasons, Fox Sports will simulcast Nine’s matches (other than the State of Origin and the Grand Final) and NEC has given rights back to the ARLC in respect of the Saturday night match (which will be licensed to Fox Sports). As in 2017, the Saturday night match in the last five rounds of the weekly competition will be shown by both NEC and Fox Sports. NEC’s average cost over the 2018 to 2022 rights period will now be $125 million per annum, inclusive of contra, down from the previously announced $185 million per annum.


NRL signs mega TV deal, Fox Sports gets rights to Saturday fixture
Posted26NovNovember2015,updated26NovNovember2015
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• 
  

The NRL has reportedly signed off on a record $1.8 billion TV deal for seasons 2018 to 2022.

As part of the deal, the Nine Network has given up its rights to a Saturday fixture to Fox Sports for $35 million, News Corp Australia reports.

As part of the deal, expected to be announced on Thursday afternoon, simulcast rights will be shared between Nine, Fox and Telstra, who have secured the digital rights.

As part of the new deal, Monday night football has been scrapped with Fox handed a Friday night match instead.

The deal will also usher in a dedicated rugby league channel to Fox Sports in 2017 and it allows the pay-TV outfit to maintain their vital monopoly on coverage of Saturday night rugby league.

In August, Nine signed a $925 million deal for the free-to-air rights that included a Saturday fixture.

However, as part of that agreement Nine were given the option to on-sell the match to Fox Sports.

Fox pays Nine 35 million for Saturday and 20 million for simulcast. Of note this does not alter Nines payment to NRL of $185 million yearly or $925 overall. The figures you see now for this year from Nines point of view take into account re-payments AND payments from Foxtel to Nine of apox 55 million- reading between the lines.

 

[Perth Red]

1. It was market value for the area at the time - it was part of the wider Docklands precinct development
2. It was a BOOT project specifically designed for the AFL to do it this way with the option of buying in early.In return they had to play 40-46 games a year for 25 years - and still pay ground rental costs.
3. They bought the management rights at the negotiated commercial rate with the owner.



You know i wrote this right?

Did the NRL even try?

haha, did you? Thats funny I'll stop there then, you know a lot more about it than me, but like I said it was a great deal for AFL and one not afforded by the NSW govt yet to NRL.

 

[Perth Red]

The advanced payment was $100million split 50-50 with Nine and Fox. So far $51mill has been repaid through deferred annual payments (allegedly).

The rest of that we already knew.

 

[taipan]

Wouldnt it look more like:

$185mill original contract (minus contra of around $12.5mill) = should be $172.5mill cash a year
Then we have to take off the advance deferred payment which who knows how much of it is fox or ch9 and how much still owes to each party. We are led to believe there was still $49mill to come off contracts for final three years.
The $64mill for this year is unclear as that is the revised cost savings Nine are claiming in their stock market issue but unclear if that is all cash savings, cash and contra savings or cash, contra and production cost savings.
At this point Id say its pretty much impossible to say what the NRl is actually going to get paid!
We can guess at:
2020 $172.5mill - $64mill - advance payment of $17mill (50% of remaining amount/3) = $91.5mill
2021 $172.5mill - $27.5mill - $17mill = $128mill
2022 $172.5mill-$27.5mill-$17mill = $128mill

= total for 20-22 of $347.5mill

But that is pure educated guess work!

From what I have gleaned from the Orstralian, so it is an estimate.

Channel 9 (the groan(sic) of rugby league).
ch 9 2020-2022 3 years $60-70m pa best 3 x$65 $195m
Foxtel next 3 years 2020-2022 $133m pa. $399m
Foxtel 2023-2027 5 years @$200m pa. $1bn
Meaning in total $1.594bn estimated revenue til end 2027, of course leaving out possible FTA deal not decided, for the period 2023-2027.And to even guess what the figures would be if the economy is still struggling and FTA station are in deeper debt, would be idiotic.

What else I've established the NRL had deals worth $25m pa for overseas sales.
Plus digital profit, which I have no idea for this year.

Plus I also understand V'Landys has recently screwed a better commission % s on betting agencies ,than the AFL, in fact much higher.

NRL sponsorship with the likes of Telstra and other majors ,is a question mark.
Plus the marketing value of getting the NRL overseas markets ,not used to the game, should not be ignored long term.

AFL/A League are preparing for discounts ,union just trying to get someone to actually notice they even exist.
How many rounds have the AFL had to cut this year ?

As the saying goes will have to wait til books ruled off possibly end November this year to see the damage, and the accounts hopefully will be a darn side more transparent than the past.

 

[T to the T]

How does the proposed expansion/extra team in Brissy impact these? Is there flex in the contract to allow for this?

 

[taipan]

How does the proposed expansion/extra team in Brissy impact these? Is there flex in the contract to allow for this?

From memory Gyngell former head of ch9, stated another team in Brisbane would add $20 pa to Tv deals.of course that was when TV stations were falling over themselves to get either AFL or the NRL ,because they had the money to do so. Not now.

Maybe the hold off with FTA is partly due to the fact a 2nd Brisbane side is now more than a chance of happening.

 

[colly]

Here is the how the $185 Nine to NRL yearly payment happened .

https://mumbrella.com.au/nine-retains-rights-for-nrl-in-four-year-deal-311053

The Nine Network has retained the free-to-air rights for the NRL for the 2018 to 2022 seasons in a deal worth $185m per year.

The network will broadcast four premium live games a week onThursday,FridayandSaturdayevenings and Sunday afternoons, as well as the Finals series, State-of-Origin, and other special event matches.

Nine has also acquired all free streaming rights for these games.


This (above) was the orignal Dave smith deal excluding Foxtel.

Deals were done ( including large advancemnts which frankly cloud the situation ) but we see how the Nine Foxtel deal finished up.

https://www.adnews.com.au/news/nrl-...with-fox-sports-24-hour-nrl-channel-to-launch

In August, Nine secured the NRL free-to-air and streaming rights for the 2018-2022 seasons in a deal worth $185 million per year, but today's news sees a new five-year sports rights deal between Fox Sports, Nine Network and Telstra.
Continuing on,
For the 2018 to 2022 seasons, Fox Sports will simulcast Nine’s matches (other than the State of Origin and the Grand Final) and NEC has given rights back to the ARLC in respect of the Saturday night match (which will be licensed to Fox Sports). As in 2017, the Saturday night match in the last five rounds of the weekly competition will be shown by both NEC and Fox Sports. NEC’s average cost over the 2018 to 2022 rights period will now be $125 million per annum, inclusive of contra, down from the previously announced $185 million per annum.


NRL signs mega TV deal, Fox Sports gets rights to Saturday fixture
Posted26NovNovember2015,updated26NovNovember2015
Share

The NRL has reportedly signed off on a record $1.8 billion TV deal for seasons 2018 to 2022.

As part of the deal, the Nine Network has given up its rights to a Saturday fixture to Fox Sports for $35 million, News Corp Australia reports.

As part of the deal, expected to be announced on Thursday afternoon, simulcast rights will be shared between Nine, Fox and Telstra, who have secured the digital rights.

As part of the new deal, Monday night football has been scrapped with Fox handed a Friday night match instead.

The deal will also usher in a dedicated rugby league channel to Fox Sports in 2017 and it allows the pay-TV outfit to maintain their vital monopoly on coverage of Saturday night rugby league.

In August, Nine signed a $925 million deal for the free-to-air rights that included a Saturday fixture.

However, as part of that agreement Nine were given the option to on-sell the match to Fox Sports.

Fox pays Nine 35 million for Saturday and 20 million for simulcast. Of note this does not alter Nines payment to NRL of $185 million yearly or $925 overall. The figures you see now for this year from Nines point of view take into account re-payments AND payments from Foxtel to Nine of apox 55 million- reading between the lines.

I figured out the number discount for the years 2021 and 2022. It's a (15 %) discount on the normal year payment. $185 million. Nine advised that it would make saving of 27.5 million for the years 2021 and 2022 which works out to be 15% I don't know how the 64 million discount for this year was worked out, especially considering it a figure arrived at by deduction from the stock exchange notification advisory. Next year Nine pay 185 million -27.5 (15% discount agreed ) - 12.5 advance (re) payment equals 145 million dollars to the NRL. A quick read and thought it looks like Foxtel extended deal 2023 to 2027 will be 200 million each year or One billion over the life of the 5 year deal.

 

[flippikat]

How does the proposed expansion/extra team in Brissy impact these? Is there flex in the contract to allow for this?

Good question.

I wonder if the new Fox deal has provision for an 18th club if both parries agree mid-deal.. without that, I'm guessing the NRL will just add a 2nd Brisbane club to appease a FTA partner.. but keeping the competition at 17 clubs so there's no change to the 8 games per weekend schedule.

 

[Nerd]

Considering how much higher the NRL rates on Fox compared to AFL this would be the perfect time for Fox to renegotiate down the amount they pay for the AFL rights based on actual ratings not hype and a temper tantrum from Uncle Rupert.

 

[Perth Red]

Good question.

I wonder if the new Fox deal has provision for an 18th club if both parries agree mid-deal.. without that, I'm guessing the NRL will just add a 2nd Brisbane club to appease a FTA partner.. but keeping the competition at 17 clubs so there's no change to the 8 games per weekend schedule.

i find it very hard and to believe news ltd are going to pay the nrl more money to bring in a direct competitor or to a club that makes it a nice profit every year.

 

[Starkers]

1. It was market value for the area at the time - it was part of the wider Docklands precinct development
2. It was a BOOT project specifically designed for the AFL to do it this way with the option of buying in early.In return they had to play 40-46 games a year for 25 years - and still pay ground rental costs.
3. They bought the management rights at the negotiated commercial rate with the owner.



You know i wrote this right?

Did the NRL even try?

Has Marvel been independently valued? Or is it just an assumed value based on what the AFL says?

I'm curious because we've just built a 300m stadium in Western Sydney, and about to build a 800m stadium in Central Sydney, both of which are vastly more modern and no one is talking about their value.

All anyone is talking about is the repay timeframe, which in the case of BankWest appears to be 30 years.

That's for a stadium with similar year round tenancy and multi function e.g. music concerts.

$1b seems a stretch for Marvel to me.