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The importance of product availability

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
8,029
True, but the branches they want to cut aren't dead. They could do with some work to bring them up to their full potential. That's what the NRL should be concentrating on.
They may as well be.

Take Saints and Cronulla for example; there's absolutely no logic behind having both in the NRL, neither are successful or sustainable, either one would be better off without the other and could cover what the other left behind, and a team in Brisbane, Perth, or Adelaide would almost certainly out preform the one that is cut given a bit of time to establish it's self.

So why do we persist with both of them, well 'umm, ahh tradition, something something juniors, whatabout muh feels, etc, etc'.

But this isn't the place to talk about this.
 

Jim Rockford

Bench
Messages
3,082
They may as well be.

Take Saints and Cronulla for example; there's absolutely no logic behind having both in the NRL, neither are successful or sustainable, either one would be better off without the other and could cover what the other left behind, and a team in Brisbane, Perth, or Adelaide would almost certainly out preform the one that is cut given a bit of time to establish it's self.

So why do we persist with both of them, well 'umm, ahh tradition, something something juniors, whatabout muh feels, etc, etc'.

But this isn't the place to talk about this.
I truly get what you are saying but the issue for me is I went through the punch in the guts of losing my team and having League disappear out of my life. There is no way I want any fan of any other club to have to go through that. When you love the game and watch every game, to have that gone from your life is a mighty big hole left behind. In a way I wish that those advocating cutting or relocating teams can go through losing their teams so that maybe they will be like me and not wish that on anyone else. It's not even as if it is the only way to go. We can expand without cutting or merging any teams.Like I have said before if a team collapses because of it's own doing then so be it, but I believe every team has the potential to grow and develop if they get the right help.
 

flippikat

First Grade
Messages
5,662
Sydney is structured very differently to Melbourne though. NRL supporter bases are very much based on which region of the city you live, whereas AFL teams are all inner-city teams, this will never change, and pushing for teams to move away from suburbs will not help our game. Roosters, Eels and soon Souths play in stadiums in major business districts, so there are options for fanbases outside of suburban sydney
How much of that could be overcome by a decent spend on public transport infrastructure?

From what I gather, Sydney is still very car-centric in it's transport networks - would it be a better thing if the NRL lobbied for better PT to existing stadia (especially Bankwest, new SFS & ANZ) instead of a mini-Bankwest in almost every suburb?
 
Messages
14,822
How much of that could be overcome by a decent spend on public transport infrastructure?

From what I gather, Sydney is still very car-centric in it's transport networks - would it be a better thing if the NRL lobbied for better PT to existing stadia (especially Bankwest, new SFS & ANZ) instead of a mini-Bankwest in almost every suburb?
Surely they should be looking at an underground railway network, similar to London. Same should happen with Brisbane and Melbourne.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
8,029
I truly get what you are saying but the issue for me is I went through the punch in the guts of losing my team and having League disappear out of my life. There is no way I want any fan of any other club to have to go through that. When you love the game and watch every game, to have that gone from your life is a mighty big hole left behind. In a way I wish that those advocating cutting or relocating teams can go through losing their teams so that maybe they will be like me and not wish that on anyone else. It's not even as if it is the only way to go. We can expand without cutting or merging any teams.Like I have said before if a team collapses because of it's own doing then so be it, but I believe every team has the potential to grow and develop if they get the right help.
You've made a monumental mistake in assuming that every person you talk to that supports rationalisation hasn't gone through losing a club.

I am/was/it's complicated a Bears fan.

But again this isn't the place to talk about this.
 

Jim Rockford

Bench
Messages
3,082
You've made a monumental mistake in assuming that every person you talk to that supports rationalisation hasn't gone through losing a club.

I am/was/it's complicated a Bears fan.

But again this isn't the place to talk about this.
Fair enough. I just find to strange that having gone through that you could wish it on anyone else. That's why I don't see it as a monumental mistake as I thought that anyone who has been through it would have empathy for those that may face it. Some are just cold-hearted and selfish I suppose.
 

flippikat

First Grade
Messages
5,662
Surely they should be looking at an underground railway network, similar to London. Same should happen with Brisbane and Melbourne.
Well.. if not that, then major upgrades to existing lines?

I have to think that if some of that stadium upgrade money was instead put into public transport - expanding the reach & upping the frequency - then there's a natural flow-on where you can start considering a centralized stadia strategy.. and the benefits of improved PT flow into just about every other aspect of life too - not just getting to games.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
73,528
Revenue is everything, more money, spend it wisely, invest more in growth. Revenue gap between AFL and NRL since NRL went independent. Until NRL closes this we will always be swimming with one hand behind our backs:

2013 $182mill
2014 $183mill
2015 $204mill
2016 $203mill
2017 $375mill
2018 $258mill
2019 $241mill
2020 $257mill

That's a staggering $1.9BILLION more the AFL has had available to spend on its game over the last 8 years!!!!!
 
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MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,390
Revenue is everything, more money, spend it wisely, invest more in growth. Revenue gap between AFL and NRL since NRL went independent. Until NRL closes this we will always be swimming with one hand behind our backs:

2013 $182mill
2014 $183mill
2015 $204mill
2016 $203mill
2017 $375mill
2018 $258mill
2019 $241mill
2020 $257mill

That's a staggering $1.9BILLION more the AFL has had available to spend on its game over the last 8 years!!!!!
Wow its a wonder why you're here on this forum in the first place, is it coz you cant get into any Freo or WC games? Find it amusing the AFL trolling on expansion threads, ....seriously
 

Jim Rockford

Bench
Messages
3,082
Wow its a wonder why you're here on this forum in the first place, is it coz you cant get into any Freo or WC games? Find it amusing the AFL trolling on expansion threads, ....seriously
Expect to make his ignore list MugaB as you've hurt his feelings.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,390
They may as well be.

Take Saints and Cronulla for example; there's absolutely no logic behind having both in the NRL, neither are successful or sustainable, either one would be better off without the other and could cover what the other left behind, and a team in Brisbane, Perth, or Adelaide would almost certainly out preform the one that is cut given a bit of time to establish it's self.

So why do we persist with both of them, well 'umm, ahh tradition, something something juniors, whatabout muh feels, etc, etc'.

But this isn't the place to talk about this.
Saints and Cronulla again... do we forget that there's a Wollongong region attached to one of these? Im not saying you're wrong, just pointing out that its a bad example,
Would be better to use Souths and Easts
 
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MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,390
Expect to make his ignore list MugaB as you've hurt his feelings.
He has none, that's why he is here, selfishly spouting out AFLs good word, must get paid by them to be the propaganda tool on these league sites, seems like anytime there's a great discussion going on, the narrative needs to be focused on how poorly NRL is doing in comparison to the best code in the galaxy the ALF, attached with facts and figures... its like when you hear how clinical the storm is on foxsports, "gee they are so cynical and sooo professional" (add Munster kick to defenceless player on the ground image)
The thread started well merely stating where the focus both codes were at, and how they use their respective markets, and what they can do better, but its gotten turned into dribble again, along with figures and soon GROTD will post his TAB guide with circles around stgeorge attendance record
 
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Jim Rockford

Bench
Messages
3,082
He has none, that's why he is here, selfishly spouting out AFLs good word, must get paid by them to be the propaganda tool on these league sites, seems like anytime there's a great discussion going on, the narritive needs to be focused on how poorly NRL is doing in comparison, attached with facts and figures... its like when you hear how clinical the storm is on foxsports, "gee they are so cynical and sooo professional" (add Munster kick to defenceless player on the ground image)
The thread started well merely stating where the focus both codes were at, and how they use their respective markets, and what they can do better, but its gotten turned into dribble again, along with figures and soon GROTD will post his TAB guide with circles around stgeorge attendance record
Didn't you know that according to Larry,Moe and Curly that this thread turned to shit once I turned up? Prior to that they could spread their pro-AFL propaganda unfettered. Now with you and I holding their feet to the fire we've made it hard for them to acheive their plans.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,390
Didn't you know that according to Larry,Moe and Curly that this thread turned to shit once I turned up? Prior to that they could spread their pro-AFL propaganda unfettered. Now with you and I holding their feet to the fire we've made it hard for them to acheive their plans.
Oh shucks, you made me blush...
Yeah i suppose you've gone and ruined the whole expansion section as a whole...
Thats fine coz since the last expansion in gold coast, most expansion threads have been littered with garbage threads about expansion areas that no one really askes for, and markets that need to be conquered or consolidated, added with a revival of north sydney bears in (insert city here)
But mostly where's my BRL, Perth and Adelaide, which is understandable but its becoming draining to find ACTUAL expansion ideas or disscusions that aren't littered by comparisons with ALF, or how pokies ruin lives, rationalization revisted x1000, GTROD market graphs, Super League f**ked by team etc, etc.....
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
73,528
Wow its a wonder why you're here on this forum in the first place, is it coz you cant get into any Freo or WC games? Find it amusing the AFL trolling on expansion threads, ....seriously
truth hurts but if you dont take a look in the mirror you’re not going to see where things are at. I mean by all means tell me I’m wrong and making it up, or join the debate. Play the ball not the man. Imagine where nrl could be now if they had an extra $1.9bill to s0end over the last 8 years! A 20 team comp and full womens comp and full reserve grade for starters!
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
8,029
Fair enough. I just find to strange that having gone through that you could wish it on anyone else. That's why I don't see it as a monumental mistake as I thought that anyone who has been through it would have empathy for those that may face it. Some are just cold-hearted and selfish I suppose.
It's being rational, not selfish.

I also think that it's going to be pretty hard for you to argue that this side of the argument is being selfish when you are the one arguing that your city needs 9 teams when others don't even have one.

I'm also capable of feeling empathy for the amputee whilst still understanding that the amputation was necessary.
 
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The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
8,029
Great OP.
The problem is that, until only a few months ago, most RL people, including many on here and most administrators, including PVL, were of the belief that the gap between AFL and NRL was not growing. Even PVL, after his first season in charge and a good look at all the metrics, is now aware that the hundreds of millions that the AFL spent in NSW/Qld on Suns/GWS is now paying dividends in terms of participation (massive gap and widening), ratings (small gap but growing) and attendances (maintaining the already huge gap). Rugby League has been in denial for way too long. If the sport does nothing, it is inevitable that the gap will continue to grow and one day, be it 20, 30 or 100 years, AFL will be number one in all states.
Though I agree with what you are saying, I don't think it is fair to say that RL is in denial about it.

The vast majority of the people that matter have understood what's been going on for decades now, they just either haven't had the power or the will to do anything about it.
You should also never underestimate the power of self interest in RL. There are people in RL who would effectively kill it as a commercial product if they thought it would benefit them or their team in some meaningful way.
So the Rugby League needs to think big picture - there needs to be consultants engaged, symposiums, whatever, but a 20 year plan is required. Millions needs to be spent. Perhaps hundreds of millions.
Simply building new stadiums won't do it, Nor will Bris 2. Or expanding the women's comp. But these are good and obvious starts. RL needs to decide if they are a national code (which requires teams in Perth and Adelaide) or if they are content to try to just hold onto market leadership in NSW & Qld for as long as possible, before the inevitable decline that is now happening to RU.
Trying to hold what they already have would just put them into a war of attrition that they'd inevitably lose as other sports got bigger.

They have to be bold and fight back, and that means being entrepreneurial and taking risks, like decoupling the NRLW from the NRL so you have two products to sell instead of one and have a bunch more pro-teams to spread across the country to help sell the game.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist lol.
They need to partner with NSW & Qld governments to grow the game at grass roots, before those governments are further seduced by AFL. The Vic govt puts millions into AFL grass roots and stadia, because they know that there is a return. On average there is one non-VIc club in the AFL GF each year, and that means 20K - 30K fans travelling to Melbourne. So, this shows that there are ways that NRL clubs in WA & SA can benefit NSW. I was previously of the opinion that strengthening the heartland should be the priority, but the game must become national as a matter of urgency. If there is not the player depth, then go the relocation route. Use the Swans as the blueprint - they are drawing 10K to games here in Vic (wearing the old South Melbourne jumper) at a time when crowds are down dramatically. So it is possible to keep the old fans whilst growing the game in another state. Get the WA/SA govts and some wealthy backers to put up big bucks for a team to relocate. $20m - $50m. Make sure that they keep the history, jersey, etc, six - eight games in Sydney, with memberships covering those games. The game needs a radical shake up off field. This should be PVL's area of expertise. Instead he has been fiddling with the game on field, something he knows very little about.
I don't have faith that RL people can detach themselves from their emotions enough to make relocations work. They'd focus too much on the past instead of the future and turn their new potential market off as a result. I can just imagine the Daily Telegraph running annual articles of rumours of X returning to Sydney and the damage they'd do.

I'm much more in favour of clubs being relegated and their license being given to new entities. That way the club that gets the boot still exists and operates more or less how it always has, and it creates the opportunity to build the lower tiers into legitimate alternate products that can be sold in their own right (see Newtown's growing success in the NSW Cup). And trust me as a Bears fan, standing alone in the NSW cup is way better then the merger was...
 
Messages
15,085
Notice all the Telstra ads feature AFL and not NRL? Even my kids spot it. A national footprint for our code with Adelaide and Perth would give sponsors national appeal too.

I can imagine them, Brisbane 2, NZ2 and even PNG with less Sydney teams as being a very strong and attractive code for advertisers.
 
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