Southern Orcas (NZ2)

[jim_57]

Biggest problem for NZ2 is where? no other cities are very big and having RL as a second sport in a small population could be a disaster financially and from a fanbase. I guess if Sky NZ is going to stump up $20mill a year more for another club then that would motivate this current mob in charge. I dont think sharing a team around cities will work anymore than sharing the Tigers around Sydney has. In a direct comparison Perth would be ahead of Christchurch in pretty much every metric right now.

That’s the issue that keeps coming back for me regarding NZ2. Don’t get me wrong I think NZ2 should be the 18th or 19th team but where are they based?

Christchurch & Wellington don’t really have much in common besides not having an NRL team. I would go one or the other but neither are huge and RL would be competing with the Union clubs in those cities realistically playing second fiddle.

I think currently a South Island team based in Christchurch is the best bet. New rectangular stadium coming, slightly larger population. Only problem is there isn’t really a bid from there.

An outside bet if the Warriors ever have a run of success would be a 2nd Auckland team but I doubt that would be considered unless Warriors were averaging 25k+ and consistent front runners.

 

[flippikat]

That’s the issue that keeps coming back for me regarding NZ2. Don’t get me wrong I think NZ2 should be the 18th or 19th team but where are they based?

Christchurch & Wellington don’t really have much in common besides not having an NRL team. I would go one or the other but neither are huge and RL would be competing with the Union clubs in those cities realistically playing second fiddle.

I think currently a South Island team based in Christchurch is the best bet. New rectangular stadium coming, slightly larger population. Only problem is there isn’t really a bid from there.

An outside bet if the Warriors ever have a run of success would be a 2nd Auckland team but I doubt that would be considered unless Warriors were averaging 25k+ and consistent front runners.

Branding & positioning are a big dilemma too.

Should a Wellington or Christchurch team brand itself as Wellington or Christchurch - or use New Zealand, or "Southern" (in the case of Christchurch) to try and appeal to a wider area?

This goes for colours and logos too - Should a Wellington based team be called the Orcas and wear black & yellow? Should a Christchurch based team be called the Bulls and wear red & black? Those are their provincial sides respective identities.

I've suggested the Kea alpine parrot as a possible identity for a Christchurch based team, but even though it's brand (and potential green, red, brown colours) is neutral, the bird is a South Island species only.

It's really quite a puzzle... maybe we could use the Moa - a giant, extinct bird?

 

[mongoose]

I think a 2nd NZ team is a bit of a pipe dream to be honest.... There isn't the population, economy, demand.

Sky would really have to chip in to make it work

 

[Perth Red]

Shitting on Brisbane bids didn't get Perth in. Won't work doing same with kiwi clubs.

jog on, the adults are discussing things

 

[Pippen94]

jog on, the adults are discussing things

No you're shit canning every other potential bid other than Perth which isn't all that mature. We can go back to you questioning the merits of a 2nd Brisbane.
Ppl within NRL have already indicated nz2 as a preferred location. Also offers timeslot, but TV money is there & will produce far more players. If Perth bid was that strong wouldn't need to talk down the others

 

[Pippen94]

Branding & positioning are a big dilemma too.

Should a Wellington or Christchurch team brand itself as Wellington or Christchurch - or use New Zealand, or "Southern" (in the case of Christchurch) to try and appeal to a wider area?

This goes for colours and logos too - Should a Wellington based team be called the Orcas and wear black & yellow? Should a Christchurch based team be called the Bulls and wear red & black? Those are their provincial sides respective identities.

I've suggested the Kea alpine parrot as a possible identity for a Christchurch based team, but even though it's brand (and potential green, red, brown colours) is neutral, the bird is a South Island species only.

It's really quite a puzzle... maybe we could use the Moa - a giant, extinct bird?

Won't be kea or moa - sounds like a small model of car

 

[jim_57]

I think a 2nd NZ team is a bit of a pipe dream to be honest.... There isn't the population, economy, demand.

Sky would really have to chip in to make it work

I think it will happen either next or as the 19th but I don’t think it’s the guaranteed “safe” expansion option people seem to think it is. I’m sure it can be made to work but I’m not convinced crowds & sponsorship would be any better than Perth who are seemingly considered the “risky” option.

Christchurch and Wellington are both smaller than Gold Coast or Newcastle at about 400k and RU is king. Not saying it can’t work just that it will be harder than people think.

Auckland has more than triple the population of either Wellington or Christchurch plus a couple of 100-150k cities within 200kms. A second Auckland team could come in to consideration as well but an outside chance.

 

[Perth Red]

No you're shit canning every other potential bid other than Perth which isn't all that mature. We can go back to you questioning the merits of a 2nd Brisbane.
Ppl within NRL have already indicated nz2 as a preferred location. Also offers timeslot, but TV money is there & will produce far more players. If Perth bid was that strong wouldn't need to talk down the others

A throw away line by Abdo in the same breath as conferences isn’t showing a preference lol

we are discussing the pros and cons of a second nz team, I can see a lot of challenges given the population sizes of potential locations, the struggles the warriors have had for a very long time and the fact the club will be a second sport in a small city for sponsors etc. having said that Christchurch will have a nice stadium and if sky are willing to significantly up the deal then I can see it being attractive to nrl who Want low risk, no financial investment options.

 

[flippikat]

I think it will happen either next or as the 19th but I don’t think it’s the guaranteed “safe” expansion option people seem to think it is. I’m sure it can be made to work but I’m not convinced crowds & sponsorship would be any better than Perth who are seemingly considered the “risky” option.

Christchurch and Wellington are both smaller than Gold Coast or Newcastle at about 400k and RU is king. Not saying it can’t work just that it will be harder than people think.

Auckland has more than triple the population of either Wellington or Christchurch plus a couple of 100-150k cities within 200kms. A second Auckland team could come in to consideration as well but an outside chance.

Spot on. Perth has double the population of Christchurch and Wellington COMBINED.

In one city.

Rusted-on AFL or not, a population THAT concentrated should have a team.

 

[jim_57]

Spot on. Perth has double the population of Christchurch and Wellington COMBINED.

In one city.

Rusted-on AFL or not, a population THAT concentrated should have a team.

Yeh exactly, and NZ is rusted-on to Union. I think Brisbane 2 was the only really easy option and that is sorted now. Perth, NZ2, Adelaide & even Brisbane 3 will all require a bit more groundwork not just from the bids but the NRL as well. Not that that should be a deterrent, all should have a team within 20-30 years if the NRL is serious.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Spot on. Perth has double the population of Christchurch and Wellington COMBINED.

In one city.

Rusted-on AFL or not, a population THAT concentrated should have a team.

@Perth Red a South African mate told me that Perth is almost 40% South Africans in terms of population. Is that true? Seems ridiculously high to me. If it is true, you'd think Union and to a lesser extent league would be way closer to AFL in terms of support there.

 

[Perth Red]

@Perth Red a South African mate told me that Perth is almost 40% South Africans in terms of population. Is that true? Seems ridiculously high to me. If it is true, you'd think Union and to a lesser extent league would be way closer to AFL in terms of support there.

No not true lol. There are a lot more english and kiwis here than sth Africans.
at the 2016 census
10.4% born in uk
3.2% kiwi
2.4% indian
1.8% sth African

 

[flippikat]

Yeh exactly, and NZ is rusted-on to Union. I think Brisbane 2 was the only really easy option and that is sorted now. Perth, NZ2, Adelaide & even Brisbane 3 will all require a bit more groundwork not just from the bids but the NRL as well. Not that that should be a deterrent, all should have a team within 20-30 years if the NRL is serious.

The one thing that NZ has over Perth & Adelaide is that the main winter game (rugby union) is far closer to rugby league than AFL is, and RU players (especially backs) have transferrable skills that can be funneled into NRL pathways.

If it comes down to a choice between Perth & NZ 2, it's almost a case of "one's strength is the other's weakness" - if the NRL wanna install a pipeline for more talent, it's NZ 2.. if they want more money, it's Perth.

 

[jim_57]

The one thing that NZ has over Perth & Adelaide is that the main winter game (rugby union) is far closer to rugby league than AFL is, and RU players (especially backs) have transferrable skills that can be funneled into NRL pathways.

If it comes down to a choice between Perth & NZ 2, it's almost a case of "one's strength is the other's weakness" - if the NRL wanna install a pipeline for more talent, it's NZ 2.. if they want more money, it's Perth.

Player development wise NZ is definitely at an advantage and having a second “home” option may see more kiwis than ever in the NRL which is a good thing.

From a Perth point of view that’s why I think it would make sense to partner with PNG/Hunters to help bring their best juniors through in to an NRL system. Essentially try and adopt a development system of a country that probably won’t ever get an NRL team. Of course focus on local juniors too but properly setting up a development pathway for PNG players would create a massive talent pipeline, not just the occasional drip we see now like Olam.

 

[Perth Red]

W

The one thing that NZ has over Perth & Adelaide is that the main winter game (rugby union) is far closer to rugby league than AFL is, and RU players (especially backs) have transferrable skills that can be funneled into NRL pathways.

If it comes down to a choice between Perth & NZ 2, it's almost a case of "one's strength is the other's weakness" - if the NRL wanna install a pipeline for more talent, it's NZ 2.. if they want more money, it's Perth.

WA has more grassroots clubs than the cnaterbury region, What we don’t have is investment and pathway.

 

[Perth Red]

Player development wise NZ is definitely at an advantage and having a second “home” option may see more kiwis than ever in the NRL which is a good thing.

From a Perth point of view that’s why I think it would make sense to partner with PNG/Hunters to help bring their best juniors through in to an NRL system. Essentially try and adopt a development system of a country that probably won’t ever get an NRL team. Of course focus on local juniors too but properly setting up a development pathway for PNG players would create a massive talent pipeline, not just the occasional drip we see now like Olam.

Totally agree, I’d be setting up a Pirates academy in port moresby for the top 50 or so 16 year olds in Png, then take the top 10-15 18 year olds out of the academy into perth system with the hope we can turn 1 or 2 of them into quality first graders each year. Put them through tafe whilst they are here so if they don’t make it to nrl at least they will have a trade to fall back on in png.

 

[siv]

NZ economy will be the main thing against this bid

My understabding us the current Orcas provisional team is Wellington based

Wellington over history as been very anti RL. Be interesting what its like these days

But I think they need to find a way to make the old Bartercard Cup or NZ Cup style structure work

 

[flippikat]

W

WA has more grassroots clubs than the cnaterbury region, What we don’t have is investment and pathway.

Fair point, but I would assume that *if* the NRL have their sights on a 2nd NZ team (wherever it's based), they'd be looking to draw on our rugby union pool of talent too - so just comparing RL club numbers with RL club numbers leaves out that dimension to it.

However, even with that prospect, I still think Perth before NZ 2 is a no-brainer.

 

[flippikat]

NZ economy will be the main thing against this bid

My understabding us the current Orcas provisional team is Wellington based

Wellington over history as been very anti RL. Be interesting what its like these days

But I think they need to find a way to make the old Bartercard Cup or NZ Cup style structure work

The dilemma with a Bartercard Cup/NZ Cup is how it fits with local club competitions.. is the best formula to use rep teams from provinces (the current setup), "manufactured" franchises (eg the short-lived 1990s Lion Red Cup), or a "champions league" style competition with the best clubs from each local competition playing each other?

 

[siv]

The dilemma with a Bartercard Cup/NZ Cup is how it fits with local club competitions.. is the best formula to use rep teams from provinces (the current setup), "manufactured" franchises (eg the short-lived 1990s Lion Red Cup), or a "champions league" style competition with the best clubs from each local competition playing each other?

The only way it will work is provisional teams added to the Auckland comp

Though you could get 2 or 3 around Wellington / Palmerston North area

All existing clubs would then operate under this format

A bit like adding Qld Country divisions to the Brisbane cp to form Qld Cup