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slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
7,684
Maybe because we weren't so busy trying to get awkwardly into attacking shape to bring Ponga into the play. Maybe stick to that game plan? Suits us much better.

Three of our tries were an actual 5/8 exploiting a mismatch, we don't get that with Sharpe play 6 at the moment.
 

SamSepi0l

Juniors
Messages
663
Part of the problem at the moment is he's also required to organise us because we have fk all in the team who can. It's also not a coincidence that his best years are when we had halves playing like halves and not Cogger and a rookie new to the spot.
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
545
Against Penrith, we were so quick in attack. Maybe because we weren't so busy trying to get awkwardly into attacking shape to bring Ponga into the play. Maybe stick to that game plan? Suits us much better.
Happens too often. This is now year six of trying to develop Kalyn into some imagined “complete” player which justifies his paycheque. Maybe if it’s not happening after six years, it’s not going to happen?

Maybe the coaching staff cool it on that quest once Brown is there to take on some of the load. Or maybe they’ll instead have TWO players they’re trying to turn into something they’re not. Won’t that be fun?
 

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
29,204
To be clear:

If Fletcher Sharpe didn't exist, I would agree it's insane to think about moving Ponga on. It's almost like he's had us over a barrel for years due to this crippling absence of other elite players.

But now we've got Sharpe. Fletcher's potential is through the roof. His feel for the fullback position is about as good as it gets, and he has genuinely elite physical tools for the spot to boot. Playing five-eighth to accommodate a guy who wants to basically play half but can't tackle, we have to seriously question whether that's the best thing for Fletcher, and whether Kalyn is really the guy you prioritise here. It could take him years to really get to grips with playing in the halves. He's already great at fullback. This is a guy for whom the NSW Blues 1 jersey beckons in his future. Playing 6 will make rep footy less likely for him, it just will. And what if he never takes to playing in the halves? How many years of this kid's career would we be burning on a bad idea here?

Make no mistake, this is a tenuous position the club is in right now - just yesterday we have his management reposting a quote from RL Guru about how the best thing for the Knights is for Sharpe to be the long term fullback. That's not great!

And with constant rumours about Kalyn not being sure if he can win a comp with us & maybe wanting out - maybe the most smoke we've heard on this front yet atm... I don't know. Should the club really keep desperately clinging on to him? To what end? To keep bending the roster into weird shapes in a desperate attempt to finish 7th rather than 10th every season? What's the point?

Can we win a comp while he's in his prime? I think it's extremely unlikely. So where does that leave Kalyn? How will he feel about his career by the end?

Kalyn reignited my love for the sport in a big way in 2018, and I'm not saying I want to push the bloke into a woodchipper and I'd be ecstatic to see the back of him. I'd be sad to see him go. I'd be happy for him if he won the comp elsewhere and annoyed by how badly we fumbled his career.

But I would be gutted, truly devastated, if we doubled down and repeated the mistake with Fletcher Sharpe & his career.
Mate, youve been conned by Kalyns dud year thus far and have started revising his history with us. Nobody here thinks he's performing like he should right now. Its not good enough. Sharpe is obviously a great fullback and absolutely lit it up on the weekend. The club should be thinking about things, sure, as any competent club should.

But pretending like this dud run of form from him is even remotely representative of his impact on our games ae recent as last year is a joke, and is probably what's grinding peoples gears in here.

Very, very short memories. Here's some of your thoughts from March 2025 to compare...

Yep.

Tino as a middle forward has literally a 100% chance of not being worth the same money by the end of his deal.
Fifita the million dollar bench player.
Really like Cam Murray but I think his playing style has started to catch up with him.
Hynes the touch footy player with the weak mentality.
Latrell the ultimate luxury player who you can’t rely on to not get himself an 8 week suspension.
AFB’s deal is a massive risk, could go off a cliff at any moment.
I’ll toss in Nanai, making $900K to play QCup this weekend.

I would personally be willing to pay Payne Haas, Isaah Yeo and probably Carrigan $1 million, but factor in that in saying that that I think the true value of Ponga relative to other players is about $2 million.

Brown’s contract is only an “overpay” in this weird tortured logic NRL contracts operate under where a “million dollar player” allegedly “distorts” your cap too much, even though most of the players expected to start in the halves or at fullback every week make $5-700K or more even if they’re not very good.

I saw some Souths fan saying that the Brown deal makes them feel better about them paying both Ilias and Lewis Dodd $700K (and they’ve paid more than half freight to punt Ilias) and I can’t wrap my head around it… Dodd looks for all money like a complete flop.

Most reasonably talented prospects in the spine gets paid at least $5-700K before they’ve proven anything, and most of those guys don’t really pan out. Are people really telling me paying $1.3 million a season for a proven very good half - most people seem to value him around $900K, over 120 games of first grade - who’ll walk into the team every week is somehow worse than $1 million+ on multiple prospects who more than likely are not going to make it as first graders at all?

Yeah I’ve seen people give Ponga shit for us usually still winning games when he’s not playing - but we win those games because we tweak the way we play. Full on grind mode and just focus on not beating ourselves. That gets you through those periods.

To win games without Moses the Eels need to be prepared to win 8-6 if that’s what it takes. Instead they play like they don’t mind if they lose 80-6.

Yeah, look, I doubt they woke up one day and thought “let’s give a somewhat inconsistent five-eighth a contract people would think twice about offering to Nathan Cleary”.

In the context of how dire the halves situation has been at Newcastle for years now though, I understand why they did it. If not Dylan the club is staring down the barrel of Cogger/Gamble failing to nail down the jersey, signing someone like Sexton or Fogarty (who I don’t think move the needle that much personally), or waiting a whole extra year in the hopes Galvin/Hughes are still available and winning one of those bidding wars.

Kalyn Ponga is a rare talent, entire clubs have gone their whole history without having a star or his calibre, and you can’t keep wasting his prime years like the Knights have been. They HAD to do something. And unfortunately, you can’t just go down to Halfbacks R Us and pick the one you want off a shelf. You can only sign who’s available.

It’s obviously an overpay, but I think he’s a very good player who still has untapped potential. I think Dylan’s style of play & running threat are going to open up so much more space for Kalyn, and also Dylan’s own attacking threat will be enhanced by the attention Kalyn draws. Whether the team will have what it takes to go all the way, well, who knows. But I think they’ll play some great footy together.
Not to mention the other quote of him being #2 in the game this time last year.

Come on, Pongas had a few dud weeks and Sharpe lights up a NSW cup team and you've gone cold on him in the space of 2 months. It's ridiculous.
 
Messages
2,573
Plenty of nuance in my takes. I’m the most nuanced takesman.

I didn’t say he was a shit player. He’s obviously a great player. But he’s a great player with downsides which more resemble Latrell Mitchell’s negatives - and Latrell, obviously, is a sensational player on his day, but there is a lot of other stuff which needs to go right to get the best out of him - than say Tedesco’s negatives.
Back peddle harder
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
545
Can I push back on “Sharpe lights up a NSW Cup team” though?

He was great in his games at fullback last year.

He was great when they put him on the wing just to get him in the team.

He’s been our most consistently dangerous player in attack this year… when doing stuff you usually want your fullback doing.

It looks like playing five-eighth will be a long, difficult process.

The crux of my argument isn’t “Kalyn bad”. It’s “Fletch great” and “it’ll be better for the team as a whole if Fletcher is the fullback going forward”.

Kalyn being a great attacking player who has to play fullback rather than a great natural fullback is something I’m bringing up because it’s pretty germane to the point that a cohesive team is easier with Fletcher there.

Kalyn very well may be the best player in the NRL on his day, but that doesn’t mean paying him $1.4 million instead of paying someone else $600K yields a better team.
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
545
There is literally NO-ONE at this club that is more valuable or talented than KP.
Oh my God read the next bit for Christ’s sake.


.

It's not some grand betrayal of the bloke to just acknowledge that every decision the club has made for the last seven years has been because Ponga is our best asset & so he's had us bent over a barrel. And now he's not. He has no leverage anymore. He's not only not our best asset anymore, I don't think he's even top three. Contracts matter. It matters that Sharpe & Lucas likely both make about $800K less. Is Ponga more than twice as valuable as either of them? Has he even been *as* valuable as either over 2024/25?
For Kalyn to be a more valuable asset to the team, he needs to be more than twice as valuable as the players who make less than half as much as him. Not to get too Dr Dr about it, but I’m talking about ROI.
 

SamSepi0l

Juniors
Messages
663
Just for context since this is all coming off of a game where the team ran for 374 more metres, held the ball for 4 mins more than our opposition and had 28 more runs.... KP is yet to play in a game this season where we've had more runs than our opponent. He would have torn the Panthers to shreds too. The fact this discussion is coming now is kinda nuts.

It was also the only single game this year we were ahead in possession and time in possession. It's almost like dominating through the middle allows a fullback to shine and we only did that against a reserve grade side. Huh.
 
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HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
545
Or 2 min ago
Okay mate, look, maybe you don't like my tone, whatever, but now you're having a go at me because you're reading stuff into my comments I have never said.

The point of me mentioning the lack of difference in our W/L ratio with and without him is that I think it indicates the team has to play well for him to play well, and I don't think that's true of players like DCE, Tedesco, etc. This makes him more of a "ceiling" raiser rather than a "floor" raiser. We're a team with a very low floor and seemingly little scope to improve that floor right now.

The point of me mentioning that his teammates never get enough credit, eg when we hold a dangerous attacking team scoreless for 70 minutes, is... well, I would have thought that was self explanatory. I was responding to a bloke that said everything that goes well is always only because of Kalyn. I thought that was very rough on our other players.

I have never, ever, in my life, said Kalyn Ponga is some shit player who's the alpha and omega of all our problems. Of course he's a phenomenal talent. The whole crux of my point, and slots' point, is that at the moment we're primed to go into next year with a five-eighth who's supposed to be our halfback, a fullback who's supposed to be our five-eighth, and a fullback who's supposed to be some "hybrid half" who'll be the real chief organiser who'll tie it all together.

We're getting a trial run of what that will look like. It looks terrible. It has looked terrible when we've gotten front foot ball, it's not just that we're getting smashed through the middle. Kalyn has really poor feel for playing in the halves. His game is annihilating defenders down both edges. He's amazing at it. We look great in attack when we get him into those spots and awful when we try to turn him into something else.

We needed to replace Pearce with another good dominant #7 to tee him up constantly. That's what yielded his Dally M form: the team getting really good at teeing him up. We had years to find the player we needed. We failed. And now we're bringing in Dylan Brown, and I think he's going to need to become that player who is the brains of the whole team to make everything work because I don't buy into Kalyn as the #7/fullback hybrid.

If you read over the quotes of mine from Apey, I believed we need to bring in an elite half, and still think Brown was a good signing. I'm not backing down on that. But at the time, I was working under the assumption that the club backing Sharpe to play in the halves was based on discovering he had a natural affinity for it, or at the very least if he struggled at it, we'd just play Gamble there, and throw Sharpe at centre or wing. Crossland/Gamble/Brown/Ponga is definitely a lot better than what we have now. But nah it sounds like the club (or AOB) is pot committed to playing Sharpe at 6. I just don't rate that that's going to work. How many years are we going to burn on that before tearing it up and trying something else?

And also, more context. A couple of months ago I wasn't assuming we'd still be staring down the barrel of the worst forward pack in the NRL in 2026, with no scope to improve it because of how much money we're spending on a spine which I reckon is really going to struggle to cohere. But that looks like the reality going forward.

So, in that context, the context of a club producing elite fullback prospects (haven't even mentioned Connor Votano), with a desparate need to upgrade the pack... I'm just no longer sure hanging onto the most expensive player in the NRL, a fullback, with the desperation we have in the past, is what we should still be doing now.

I think next year our Ponga-Sharpe-Brown-Crossland spine is going to look clunky and terrible, and we're going to play really slow, shit attack, a lot, and be the worst attacking team in the comp. Bookmark this. If I'm wrong, absolutely give it to me. I would be delighted to be wrong. I want what the club is doing to be the best thing they could be doing. But I can't believe in what they're doing right now.
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
545
Don't deny I'm pissy with Kalyn atm of course, what really f**ked me off was the effort in the Eels game once his Origin jersey was on the line... where was that when we needed it?

But if we didn't have Sharpe, I wouldn't even consider whether it would be a good thing if he moved on.
 

Yosh

Coach
Messages
12,555
KP is going to rip it up tonight againat the best in the business and remind everyone how good he is. He is going to do it with a spine he has never played with.

We just ain't getting the best out of Ponga both tactically and psychologically. It's that simple. We ain't going to get another generational player again for another 2 decades. If we don't win at least one Premiership with him here at the club, that's a massive failure.
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
545
He's absolutely played with that spine before. Grant Munster & DCE have been first choice in those jerseys since 2020. He's had a lot of natural cohesion with all three.

If he rips it up I'll react extremely normally and say nothing about "Origin Ponga". I reckon the Blues smash them though, Latrell MOTM.
 

Knight Tales

Bench
Messages
3,417
Yeah given the way POS is approaching recruitment it's definitely not "win now".
I think the next time we are good, as in finish top 4, KP isn't here.
A bit concerning then as Sully went on record as saying he wants to sign Kalyn for life. He may have been on the defensive though after signing Dylan Brown and the heat that was bringing.
 

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,219
And also, more context. A couple of months ago I wasn't assuming we'd still be staring down the barrel of the worst forward pack in the NRL in 2026, with no scope to improve it because of how much money we're spending on a spine which I reckon is really going to struggle to cohere. But that looks like the reality going forward.

So, in that context, the context of a club producing elite fullback prospects (haven't even mentioned Connor Votano), with a desparate need to upgrade the pack... I'm just no longer sure hanging onto the most expensive player in the NRL, a fullback, with the desperation we have in the past, is what we should still be doing now.

I think next year our Ponga-Sharpe-Brown-Crossland spine is going to look clunky and terrible, and we're going to play really slow, shit attack, a lot, and be the worst attacking team in the comp. Bookmark this. If I'm wrong, absolutely give it to me. I would be delighted to be wrong. I want what the club is doing to be the best thing they could be doing. But I can't believe in what they're doing right now.

For whatever it's worth I completely agree with you on this. It's all about team balance, regardless of whether Ponga is technically the 'best player' in that team. It doesn't matter if he is or isn't, or even how much better he theoretically is to the next best player. But it does matter if his enormous salary is part of the reason we can't recruit any decent forwards to give ourselves even half a chance of being competitive against reasonable opposition, or recruit a halfback with even basic halfback skills. And it does matter that clearly one of our other best players, with huge upside, on a modest enough contract and locked in long term, is ALSO a fullback and an extremely good one.

It's so obvious that, just as an example to illustrate the point, we would be an overall better team if we had Sharpe at 1, a competent to above average organising half at 7, Brown at 6, and one or two upgrades in the forward pack enabled by not having Ponga. It's never an argument about being an exceptional player or not, of course he is. But at this club, right now, with the pieces of the puzzle that we already have in place, I would let him go to achieve the above balance. With Leo and KPP leaving our already weak forward depth looks atrocious, it's basically Lucas and Saifiti holding it together with an ageing Frizz, and we desperately need a serious injection of size, power and skill up front. And we still don't have an actual halfback. So yes, Ponga is not necessarily the right fit for the Knights moving forward. Would he move to another club where he is a better fit and absolutely smash it? Of course.
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
545
Yep that's it mate.

And the fact that the thing which is supposed to paper over every issue with having a very meat and potatoes hooker + Sharpe & Brown both playing out of position is Kalyn demonstrating this amazing ability to thrive as our main first receiver... something he's rarely shown much particular aptitude at... it's giving me hives lol.

And yeah Sharpe would be making about $600K, would be my bet. That's one of the best contracts in the comp if he's playing fullback and yet another problematic deal if he doesn't pan out at 6 & has to play on the wing again, or if they persist with him at 6 and he just never takes to it...
 

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,219
I can't understand anyone not seeing that with 1. Sharpe, 6. Brown, we would already have the foundations of an elite spine for many years. Both are highly likely to be among the better players in those positions in the NRL over the next 5 years. But actually playing in those positions is crucial to achieving that reality. Then if you replace Cogger/Gamble with a decent 7, whether a highly regarded younger half or an established role player with a strong kicking game, and add some proper talent in the forwards, we just might have a team capable of achieving something.

But if all we do is keep Ponga behind this forward pack (or worse), try to manufacture Sharpe into a 6 and Brown into a 7 or some hybrid version where all three are somehow responsible for the organisation and the running games without it becoming a dog's breakfast, then I don't think the prospects look good. Ponga is not the type of player to drag a team like that to consistent success on his own, he does remarkable things when he's on his game, but he needs the right tools around him to do that. I don't think we have those tools.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
27,343
It's such a myth that we don't have good forwards because of Kalyns contract.

I can't understand anyone not seeing that with 1. Sharpe, 6. Brown, we would already have the foundations of an elite spine for many years. Both are highly likely to be among the better players in those positions in the NRL over the next 5 years. But actually playing in those positions is crucial to achieving that reality. Then if you replace Cogger/Gamble with a decent 7, whether a highly regarded younger half or an established role player with a strong kicking game, and add some proper talent in the forwards, we just might have a team capable of achieving something.

But if all we do is keep Ponga behind this forward pack (or worse), try to manufacture Sharpe into a 6 and Brown into a 7 or some hybrid version where all three are somehow responsible for the organisation and the running games without it becoming a dog's breakfast, then I don't think the prospects look good. Ponga is not the type of player to drag a team like that to consistent success on his own, he does remarkable things when he's on his game, but he needs the right tools around him to do that. I don't think we have those tools.

It's not that people don't see it, it's that some of us see that we still have a superstar in our roster and we're not as willing to just chuck him in the bin over a few good games from a rookie. The optimal solution is that we coach them both into the same system - because Kalyn Ponga's aren't just going to fall into our lap every day. Some of us want to ditch him for a mythical replacement that doesn't yet exist at the first chance they have gotten. We couldn't even get Pezet over the line ffs. He's sitting in reserve grade right now when he could be playing first grade just to avoid us.
 
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