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K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,219
Sharpe on around 600k and delivering consistently elite performances would also be exactly the type of situation that does give a club a window at a premiership, when outstanding talent in key positions is not breaking the bank yet. In that scenario, it's justified having Brown's massive contract because he is also a very good spine player, but definitely a 6 not a 7. Those two combined, in those positions, is genuinely a great place to start building a top team. But shuffling everyone around to different positions where they don't excel, just to keep fitting in the highest paid player in the game to one of those positions already filled by outstanding talent, and sacrificing any chance at building the forward pack so obviously needed to make any of this matter at all, is madness. Something has to change. The only alternative is that Brown has levels to his game we've never seen, and at the same time Sharpe is being turned into the proper half he doesn't appear to be either. It doesn't seem likely we will get both of those things to happen at the same time, and we might succeed at neither. And then there's the issue of the most garbage forward pack in the NRL for this experimental spine to play behind ...
 

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,219
It's such a myth that we don't have good forwards because of Kalyns contract.

Fair, I should have been clearer I'm not saying any of this retrospectively. I don't blame Ponga or his contract for our predicament. He's a superstar, he's great to watch, he's provided a lot of highlights and when we've functioned as a team it's been great. I'm more interested in what happens over the next 5-8 years, and I do think that paying Ponga what he will demand next contract would probably be a mistake at least partly because it will limit our ability to spend that money where need to most, which is not on a gun fullback because we have one of those already.
 

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,219
And promising halfbacks will continue to ignore us if we continue to have the worst forward pack in the NRL, whether Ponga is a Knights player or not.
 
Messages
2,578
Okay mate, look, maybe you don't like my tone, whatever, but now you're having a go at me because you're reading stuff into my comments I have never said.

The point of me mentioning the lack of difference in our W/L ratio with and without him is that I think it indicates the team has to play well for him to play well, and I don't think that's true of players like DCE, Tedesco, etc. This makes him more of a "ceiling" raiser rather than a "floor" raiser. We're a team with a very low floor and seemingly little scope to improve that floor right now.

The point of me mentioning that his teammates never get enough credit, eg when we hold a dangerous attacking team scoreless for 70 minutes, is... well, I would have thought that was self explanatory. I was responding to a bloke that said everything that goes well is always only because of Kalyn. I thought that was very rough on our other players.

I have never, ever, in my life, said Kalyn Ponga is some shit player who's the alpha and omega of all our problems. Of course he's a phenomenal talent. The whole crux of my point, and slots' point, is that at the moment we're primed to go into next year with a five-eighth who's supposed to be our halfback, a fullback who's supposed to be our five-eighth, and a fullback who's supposed to be some "hybrid half" who'll be the real chief organiser who'll tie it all together.

We're getting a trial run of what that will look like. It looks terrible. It has looked terrible when we've gotten front foot ball, it's not just that we're getting smashed through the middle. Kalyn has really poor feel for playing in the halves. His game is annihilating defenders down both edges. He's amazing at it. We look great in attack when we get him into those spots and awful when we try to turn him into something else.

We needed to replace Pearce with another good dominant #7 to tee him up constantly. That's what yielded his Dally M form: the team getting really good at teeing him up. We had years to find the player we needed. We failed. And now we're bringing in Dylan Brown, and I think he's going to need to become that player who is the brains of the whole team to make everything work because I don't buy into Kalyn as the #7/fullback hybrid.

If you read over the quotes of mine from Apey, I believed we need to bring in an elite half, and still think Brown was a good signing. I'm not backing down on that. But at the time, I was working under the assumption that the club backing Sharpe to play in the halves was based on discovering he had a natural affinity for it, or at the very least if he struggled at it, we'd just play Gamble there, and throw Sharpe at centre or wing. Crossland/Gamble/Brown/Ponga is definitely a lot better than what we have now. But nah it sounds like the club (or AOB) is pot committed to playing Sharpe at 6. I just don't rate that that's going to work. How many years are we going to burn on that before tearing it up and trying something else?

And also, more context. A couple of months ago I wasn't assuming we'd still be staring down the barrel of the worst forward pack in the NRL in 2026, with no scope to improve it because of how much money we're spending on a spine which I reckon is really going to struggle to cohere. But that looks like the reality going forward.

So, in that context, the context of a club producing elite fullback prospects (haven't even mentioned Connor Votano), with a desparate need to upgrade the pack... I'm just no longer sure hanging onto the most expensive player in the NRL, a fullback, with the desperation we have in the past, is what we should still be doing now.

I think next year our Ponga-Sharpe-Brown-Crossland spine is going to look clunky and terrible, and we're going to play really slow, shit attack, a lot, and be the worst attacking team in the comp. Bookmark this. If I'm wrong, absolutely give it to me. I would be delighted to be wrong. I want what the club is doing to be the best thing they could be doing. But I can't believe in what they're doing right now.
Thats a big reply from just 4 little words
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
27,381
Fair, I should have been clearer I'm not saying any of this retrospectively. I don't blame Ponga or his contract for our predicament. He's a superstar, he's great to watch, he's provided a lot of highlights and when we've functioned as a team it's been great. I'm more interested in what happens over the next 5-8 years, and I do think that paying Ponga what he will demand next contract would probably be a mistake at least partly because it will limit our ability to spend that money where need to most, which is not on a gun fullback because we have one of those already.
I think it's way too early to tell yet. Even if we had a good coaching staff, which I don't believe we do, it would take time to make this all work.

I will go as far to say this though. I think the AOB/Ponga pairing as coach/captain isn't a winner. AOB has consistently failed to make Ponga effective over a very long period of time. Yes, some of it's on Kalyn too - although I would argue much less so in recent years. 2023/2024 Kalyn looked very much into his footy and seemed to be growing into the captain we needed him to be. This year, there's been a massive nosedive there and it's been disappointing. When you have a coach that fails to get the best out of your best player - one of them obviously has to go.

My preference would be to ditch the coach before ditching the second most talented player we've ever had at the club, because I haven't rated the coach for years. A new coach + staff would get a full season with Kalyn and the squad before anyone else can even talk to him contract wise, and then be well into the next season before Kalyn had to make his mind up. The best time to do this would be years ago. The next best time is tomorrow. Clock is ticking.

And promising halfbacks will continue to ignore us if we continue to have the worst forward pack in the NRL, whether Ponga is a Knights player or not.
Promising players of any position will continue to ignore us until we generate some excitement about the place and demonstrate that we're going somewhere. If we're not the most unfashionable club in the NRL, we're certainly in the bottom 2 or 3. No player in the NRL is excited about being coached by Adam O'Brian.
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
569
It's such a myth that we don't have good forwards because of Kalyns contract.
That's true, it has been a myth... but it's going to become less of one when you throw the other spine deals in. We're now at the point of having a comparable spine spend to the Storm, and they definitely put some guys on the field who they're paying basically nothing. An elite hooker like Grant can make them look better than they are. We don't have that. It's now going to be hard to fit good forwards & backs under the cap going forward.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
27,381
That's true, it has been a myth... but it's going to become less of one when you throw the other spine deals in. We're now at the point of having a comparable spine spend to the Storm, and they definitely put some guys on the field who they're paying basically nothing. An elite hooker like Grant can make them look better than they are. We don't have that. It's now going to be hard to fit good forwards & backs under the cap going forward.
Yeah, I'm not sure that's the case either tbh. Maybe in the short term, but I expect the new teams and cap increases to make Dylans contract look a lot better than it does today. That'll all unfold over the next 12-24 months. I think you're massively overstating the problem here. Investing big money in talented spine players is the right place to have the money.

The club has gambled on Dylbags being able to be coached into a 7 (and the backup plan is probably for Sharpe to do it). That's the plan.
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
569
Yeah, I'm not sure that's the case either tbh. Maybe in the short term, but I expect the new teams and cap increases to make Dylans contract look a lot better than it does today. That'll all unfold over the next 12-24 months. I think you're massively overstating the problem here. Investing big money in talented spine players is the right place to have the money.
Agree with that. Happy with the Brown signing. It'll look good in coming years & our biggest issue has been finding properly good halves. Brown is a very good half and he'll play out his career with us.

We'll likely have to give Kalyn and Fletch big payrises to stay beyond current deals though, unless they agree to similar ratchet-less contracts. Definitely unlikely in Kalyn's case.

Young forwards in the pathways panning out will be essential going forward.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
27,381
Yeah, I'm not sure that's the case either tbh. Maybe in the short term, but I expect the new teams and cap increases to make Dylans contract look a lot better than it does today. That'll all unfold over the next 12-24 months. I think you're massively overstating the problem here. Investing big money in talented spine players is the right place to have the money.

The club has gambled on Dylbags being able to be coached into a 7 (and the backup plan is probably for Sharpe to do it). That's the plan.
And just expanding on this further, I think there would be a lot less pressure on us worrying about this at all if the 1.3m we spent on Dylbags was a true halfback coming in. We'd all be a lot more comfortable of Sharpe adapting to the #6 long term if he had the privilege of a star halfback coming to the club to steer the ship.

So talk to Peter O'Sullivan about that one, I guess.
 

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
29,225
He would have torn the Panthers to shreds too.
Tbh I'm not sure he would have, just because there's no denying he's out of form, but I agree with your general point. Ponga in a decent bit of form would have embarrassed them. They had a prop on the edge, lol.

I'm not convinced he'll light it up tonight either, but I'm keen to see if he does. And I hope he does even as a NSW fan, because it'd be great for us if he came back with his confidence.
 

macavity

Referee
Messages
21,086
Ponga isn’t our issue, the 7 and front row are. And have been for a long time.

I still think they will play fletch at 7, he will hardly get an offseason.

The front row though looks dire next year.
 

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
29,225
And just expanding on this further, I think there would be a lot less pressure on us worrying about this at all if the 1.3m we spent on Dylbags was a true halfback coming in. We'd all be a lot more comfortable of Sharpe adapting to the #6 long term if he had the privilege of a star halfback coming to the club to steer the ship.

So talk to Peter O'Sullivan about that one, I guess.
I'm worried about the Brown signing because I don't think he's shown anything to suggest he can be the guy. But for us Knights fans it's very obvious why we've done it (not so much the rest of the rugby league world). Ponga has had very little to work with in the halves for a long time now. He's theoretically going to finally have someone who can be a legitimate threat alongside him. I wish it was an actual halfback but it'll have to do. The thing I'm least convinced about of all is that we have the coaching staff capable of making any of this work..
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
569
It’d be easier to buy into the vision if Bellyache is our head coach, or even good old Uncle Wayne (when he has dynamic attacking players, he tends to let them cook). It’s hard to see coming from AOB who’s been so structured and so conservative so consistently. And who has leaned hard on a dominant on-ball halfback when we have played our best footy.
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
569
Tbh I'm not sure he would have, just because there's no denying he's out of form, but I agree with your general point. Ponga in a decent bit of form would have embarrassed them. They had a prop on the edge, lol.

I'm not convinced he'll light it up tonight either, but I'm keen to see if he does. And I hope he does even as a NSW fan, because it'd be great for us if he came back with his confidence.
Yep big part of what kicked off the rout is Sharpe’s direct, hard running and tackle busting. Leaving aside history, Ponga certainly has not been bringing that this year.
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
569
And I buy Brown as a 7 a hell of a lot more than Sharpe or KP. But the context in which I really buy it is if the 6 is a bit of a complimentary organiser who’ll help count tackles, do a fair bit of kicking, bark at blokes to get them into position, etc. A guy who’ll free Dylan up a bit to play run-first and focus more on setting up tries than setting up the whole game. Think Blake Green, Kieran Foran. Gamblor obviously the player we have who most fits the bill. Chanel Harris-Tavita seems to play a role like that at the Wahs.

As it stands it’ll have to be Kalyn & Sharpe doing that.

I know the vision is the three of them play together in various configurations, each play with freedom to run always knowing that the others will pick up the slack. I just have a hard time believing in that vision right now. I hope in a year’s time I look stupid for saying this.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
27,381
You know, just watching Origin at the moment and I think one thing our team really, really needs is a half that's actually willing to pass the ball across Ponga's face from time to time, and know when to do it. Our shapes are just way too obvious when he's getting the ball and when he isn't.
 

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
569
You know, just watching Origin at the moment and I think one thing our team really, really needs is a half that's actually willing to pass the ball across Ponga's face from time to time, and know when to do it. Our shapes are just way too obvious when he's getting the ball and when he isn't.
Hastings did a great job of that in 2023, check out our “all the tries” from that season. There’ll be a bunch where he’s hitting Bradman or Gagai direct in reaction to a player flying out at Kalyn.

A shame it didn’t work out, they synergised well before whatever messed things up in 2024.

Honestly Hastings’ career as a whole is a waste (part of it because of leg issues over which he has no control, but most self inflicted). Couldn’t stay out of his own way. Had the ability to be a long term NRL half somewhere.
 

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