OT: Current Affairs and Politics

[hindy111]

When I see a hairy legged 50yld man wearing a skimpy dress,lipstick and swinging a handbag rnd I just find it like a bit funny. f**k I must be a bad person.

 

[Gary Gutful]

TLDR: Yeah we are making progress, but we are far from where we really would need to be.

That is a summary of what we both already agreed.

I’m asking you to dig a little deeper.

Why are we at a period where where are more progressed but still spending more time being disenfranchised when it comes to gender?

 

[Bandwagon]

That is a summary of what we both already agreed.

I’m asking you to dig a little deeper.

Why are we at a period where where are more progressed but still spending more time being disenfranchised when it comes to gender?

Did you read the post above that one? It gives more flesh to that idea.

 

[Bandwagon]

When I see a hairy legged 50yld man wearing a skimpy dress,lipstick and swinging a handbag rnd I just find it like a bit funny. f**k I must be a bad person.

Well if the guy is gonna match that handbag to that dress, he probably deserves it.

 

[Gary Gutful]

i'd say progress is a bit of a double edged sword, because you still have a fair bit of push back, but you also now have a different and opposite expectation about what living with your sexuality means, by being "out"

It depends on what your sexuality is. I feel that being gay is as accepted as it has ever been in recent history (in the western world) but, yes there are still plenty of homophobes.

So being more "out" also means being more venerable, because you are seen for what you are, and there's still plenty of merkins that don't like what you are.

Venerable or vulnerable?

Even as accepting as we are now, there no doubt some challenges for people who do come out.

And I'd add to that, and it's still very important and I'd hazard a guess as being a major cause of mental health issues, if you are brought up as being hetero-normative, then it's pretty hard to adjust to what you thought was "normal", isn't normal for you. That's really dealing with who you are, and how you see yourself. Even if deep down you always knew, even if your parents and friends are supportive, that would still be a lot to deal with I'd reckon, and many folk simply wouldn't, until they kinda have to.

Certainly the rise in transgenderism among 18-24 year olds suggest that there is some change.

Transgender identity: How much has it increased?

We finally have hard data

www.generationtechblog.com

History tells us that change takes time.

Part of the challenge is that there are arguably plenty of accepting people who are struggling with the concept of non-binary, pronouns etc. It is new and almost impossible to define.

When someone says "I accept the right for you to be whoever you want to be.", inherent in that is the idea that they will know what that thing is even if they don't understand it.

As such, I think its a much bigger change than the idea that someone is gay or a man who wants to be a woman and vice versa (which was happening for Millenia).

I also accept that there are plenty of people on the right side of politics who are fuelling this and turning into an "Ooga Booga' which can be unhelpful but lets not talk about them for at least 1 day.

However, (...and here's the clincher) we have to accept that there also activists on the left that are using this as a big f**k you to what they believe are antiquated notions of gender. If you want people to accept an alternative position then it is fair and reasonable for someone to ask you to define what that alternative position is. I'm yet to really see a definition of gender and pronouns that logically works or isn't just a big meaningless free for all.

 

[Gary Gutful]

TLDR: Gary is a f**kwit.

 

[Bandwagon]

It depends on what your sexuality is. I feel that being gay is as accepted as it has ever been in recent history (in the western world) but, yes there are still plenty of homophobes.


Venerable or vulnerable?

Even as accepting as we are now, there no doubt some challenges for people who do come out.


Certainly the rise in transgenderism among 18-24 year olds suggest that there is some change.

Transgender identity: How much has it increased?

We finally have hard data

www.generationtechblog.com

History tells us that change takes time.

Part of the challenge is that there are arguably plenty of accepting people who are struggling with the concept of non-binary, pronouns etc. It is new and almost impossible to define.

When someone says "I accept the right for you to be whoever you want to be.", inherent in that is the idea that they will know what that thing is even if they don't understand it.

As such, I think its a much bigger change than the idea that someone is gay or a man who wants to be a woman and vice versa (which was happening for Millenia).

I also accept that there are plenty of people on the right side of politics who are fuelling this and turning into an "Ooga Booga' which can be unhelpful but lets not talk about them for at least 1 day.

However, (...and here's the clincher) we have to accept that there also activists on the left that are using this as a big f**k you to what they believe are antiquated notions of gender. If you want people to accept an alternative position then it is fair and reasonable for someone to ask you to define what that alternative position is. I'm yet to really see a definition of gender and pronouns that logically works or isn't just a big meaningless free for all.

I agree with all that, except I don't completely agree with the last paragraph.

What I think is that the whole pro-noun debate has become reactionary, but from the liberal side it's been driven in two ways, one recognize me for who I am as I see who I am, which is a perfectly reasonable position, and for the most part well defined, and two: I'm a gonna come up with a zillion f**king absurd terms so as I have something to bash you about the head with, which is more what you're getting at here I feel.

The response from conservatives has been to reject both the reasonable and the unreasonable, thus throwing the baby out with the bath water.

But for the most part, and there will be exceptions of course, the more extreme liberal line is being pushed by younger liberals, a majority of whom grow out of it, whereas the rejection of the whole shebang on the conservative side is being pushed by grown arsed men, who'll never let it go.

As an aside, you might not have noticed, but there's a real lack of push on the real silly shit anymore, and it's been dying off for some time, almost as if it was just another fad for the kids. What has grown way out of proportion now is the conservative right's portrayal of trans folk being almost the root of all evil, like some terrorist Transtifa or some shit. But hey, I'm sure they mean well.

 

[Gary Gutful]

I agree with all that, except I don't completely agree with the last paragraph.

What I think is that the whole pro-noun debate has become reactionary, but from the liberal side it's been driven in two ways, one recognize me for who I am as I see who I am, which is a perfectly reasonable position, and for the most part well defined, and two: I'm a gonna come up with a zillion f**king absurd terms so as I have something to bash you about the head with, which is more what you're getting at here I feel.

The response from conservatives has been to reject both the reasonable and the unreasonable, thus throwing the baby out with the bath water.

But for the most part, and there will be exceptions of course, the more extreme liberal line is being pushed by younger liberals, a majority of whom grow out of it, whereas the rejection of the whole shebang on the conservative side is being pushed by grown arsed men, who'll never let it go.

As an aside, you might not have noticed, but there's a real lack of push on the real silly shit anymore, and it's been dying off for some time, almost as if it was just another fad for the kids. What has grown way out of proportion now is the conservative right's portrayal of trans folk being almost the root of all evil, like some terrorist Transtifa or some shit. But hey, I'm sure they mean well.

All fair.

Whilst I don’t ever think it was a major issue, there was a bit of f**k you going on from the left around pronouns and it was largely coming from younger people as a protest. I agree that it is less of a focus now which means that people like Matt Walsh will need to think of a new grift.

A lot of reasonable people probably share similar views to me which are:

1. Can agree that sex and gender are different things (my position on this has evolved over time).
2. Gender exists on a spectrum. You can be a butch woman or a feminine male. You can be male and identify as female as vice versa.
3. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity.

The pronoun stuff has distracted from the more important shit and I’m glad it’s died down.

The other libs talking point is fairness in sport and I do see the argument that a trans female has an unfair advantage over a biological female. But on my list of issues to worry about this one is pretty low. I also think can be managed with sensible rules. The best one being a third category.

 

[Bandwagon]

But on my list of issues to worry about this one is pretty low

Well yeah, do we wanna get all tied up in knots over like 0.00001% of the community or something?

I also think can be managed with sensible rules.

To a point yeah, but at any rate it's really best left to individual sporting bodies to decide what works best for them, or even if there is a real issue in their sport. I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea that a political party have a policy on it, but f**k me some of the carry on is just shit-f**kery.

 

[hindy111]

Well if the guy is gonna match that handbag to that dress, he probably deserves it.

Yeah they just look silly

 

[Bandwagon]

Yeah they just look silly

And I don't see anything wrong with having that opinion, where it becomes problematic is if that leads you to thinking of them as less of a human, and treating them in accordance with that.

For mine, if you wanna look silly that's your business, it doesn't affect me in the least, and as long as no-one is getting hurt why should I care.

 

[Gary Gutful]

Well yeah, do we wanna get all tied up in knots over like 0.00001% of the community or something?

I’m already spending enough time getting tied up over 18 people (17 players and a coach).

To a point yeah, but at any rate it's really best left to individual sporting bodies to decide what works best for them, or even if there is a real issue in their sport.

That’s true. Horses for courses and in many cases no real changes are required.

 

[Ruby Roundhouse]

i'd say progress is a bit of a double edged sword, because you still have a fair bit of push back, but you also now have a different and opposite expectation about what living with your sexuality means, by being "out"

So being more "out" also means being more venerable, because you are seen for what you are, and there's still plenty of merkins that don't like what you are.

And I'd add to that, and it's still very important and I'd hazard a guess as being a major cause of mental health issues, if you are brought up as being hetero-normative, then it's pretty hard to adjust to what you thought was "normal", isn't normal for you. That's really dealing with who you are, and how you see yourself. Even if deep down you always knew, even if your parents and friends are supportive, that would still be a lot to deal with I'd reckon, and many folk simply wouldn't, until they kinda have to.

Well said, thanks

folks still face discrimination and I feel we are going backward in terms of progress and hate being justified with a special book

 

[T-Boon]

what are you all going on about

 

[Twizzle]

what are you all going on about

rule changes to the sexual discrimination act, we figured this would be right up your alley

 

[T-Boon]

rule changes to the sexual discrimination act, we figured this would be right up your alley

40-30. You have to be aged between 40 and 30.

 

[Ruby Roundhouse]

When I see a hairy legged 50yld man wearing a skimpy dress,lipstick and swinging a handbag rnd I just find it like a bit funny. f**k I must be a bad person.

It's normal for people to take extreme examples and use it to hate on an entire group of people

 

[hindy111]

It's normal for people to take extreme examples and use it to hate on an entire group of people

Finding something funny isn't hating.

 

[Bandwagon]

what are you all going on about

Chicks with dicks, and boys with no toys.

Do you even Kinder Surprise?

 

[Ruby Roundhouse]

Finding something funny isn't hating.

Except when it's about fat people ;_;