Which NRL club do you reckon will go broke in the next 10 years??

[Matt23]

Sharks...but what if News corp pulls the plug on Melbourne?

 

[The Informer]

The Sharks are all but stuffed, their debts now well exceed their assets, their financial position continues to slide in the wrong direction (highlighted by their need to borrow to maintain club / player payments) and given the current financial crisis across the business community it will only get worse. What is also not well known is that they already have a number of key sponsors signed for figures 70% to 50% less of what most other clubs currently have achieved (for the same style of deal) as that was the best they could achieve and something was better than nothing. It's highly unlikely that they will survive into 2010, and the NRL are very well aware of it.

The Knights are a worry. Without the obvious major leagues club support they have trod a fine line, given the extreme tightening market that might well make life even more difficult for them to get through the next 12 to 24 mths. The positive is that they are not hamstrung with considerable debt.

 

[Fein]

The Sharks are all but stuffed, their debts now well exceed their assets, their financial position continues to slide in the wrong direction (highlighted by their need to borrow to maintain club / player payments) and given the current financial crisis across the business community it will only get worse. What is also not well known is that they already have a number of key sponsors signed for figures 70% to 50% less of what most other clubs currently have achieved (for the same style of deal) as that was the best they could achieve and something was better than nothing. It's highly unlikely that they will survive into 2010, and the NRL are very well aware of it.

The Knights are a worry. Without the obvious major leagues club support they have trod a fine line, given the extreme tightening market that might well make life even more difficult for them to get through the next 12 to 24 mths. The positive is that they are not hamstrung with considerable debt.

To be honest, I'm sure a similar tale could be told of many other clubs.

Souths were shot under Piggins but have received a second chance, Manly also got their second wind via Penn and Delmege.

The two mergers are where my attention is focussed.

Both the lesser parties to the merged altar in Wests (Tigers) and Illawarra (St George) are now in much stronger positions and the wounds of the ill-treated have never healed.

Illawarra in particular could well stand alone and leave St George stranded.

 

[The Informer]

To be honest, I'm sure a similar tale could be told of many other clubs.

Souths were shot under Piggins but have received a second chance, Manly also got their second wind via Penn and Delmege.

The two mergers are where my attention is focussed.

Both the lesser parties to the merged altar in Wests (Tigers) and Illawarra (St George) are now in much stronger positions and the wounds of the ill-treated have never healed.

Illawarra in particular could well stand alone and leave St George stranded.

Yes, agree.

 

[dubopov]

Yes, agree.

St George have been carrying the Merger financially for 10 years. Last I heard, Illawarra still owed them millions.

 

[Fein]

St George have been carrying the Merger financially for 10 years. Last I heard, Illawarra still owed them millions.

That is no longer the case and in fact, the owner of WIN is steadily laying his plan for check mate.

 

[adamkungl]

I love how everyone on here is suddenly a financial expert on every single club.

 

[Fein]

I love how everyone on here is suddenly a financial expert on every single club.

What a stupid f**king comment. :roll:

Is this not a forum where people can share their views, opinions and inside information?

FFS. :roll:

 

[mik01]

After 40 odd years they have just realised in the UK that P&R no longer works as the gap between top division and next is so huge. It works in soccer due to A) the nature of the game where lesser teams can still beat much better teams due to low point scoring opportunities and B) the money in the 2nd divison is huge.

In Oz you'd basically have 2nd divison clubs operating on $1-2mill budgets and NRL clubs on $15-20mill. How on earth would they be competitive in their promotion year? I'm all for a National NRL second division but don't belive P&R needs to be part of it.

1 - sorry, I disagree that they have 'realised' it does not work. the gap is wide, however it is so because the Premier League is the elite league and deservedly draws the big TV rights deals etc.

2 - your comments about 'low scoring opportunities' somehow makes it 'easier' for lesser teams to win games against top opposition I also disagree with. its not a game of chance mate!

3 - the money in the 2nd division Football League and EPL is comparable to the gap between the NRL and JB Cup. yes much bigger than ours but the ratio would be similar

4 - competitive - the benefits from P&R are twofold - it creates a great opportunity for lower league teams to develop local players, and bring them into the 'top flight' once promoted - players that might sit on the sidelines as second string players at 'glamour clubs' actually get to play first grade every week.

And, it promotes GOOD management, both financially and personnel - sh*t teams that are always bottom of the NRL currently get to stay there, without attracting good players, and bring the competition down. if they were faced with relegation, there would be extra impetus to work harder, trim the budget - better long term management to keep the club in the top flight.

How would a newly promoted team be competitive? in the EPL once you are promoted you are given a huge cash injection for a start. Your supporter base automatically increases as your team gains national exposure. Bigger sponsors want to be part of the team. Bigger players want to be part of the winning culture.

doesn't always work, but don't think promoted teams are simply 'thrown to the lions' and always fail. needs way more thought than I have given it of course -and it may be a sh*t idea at the end of the day, but certainly should be an idea on paper somewhere at the NRL I reckon!

 

[Jubileeboy]

To be honest, I'm sure a similar tale could be told of many other clubs.

Souths were shot under Piggins but have received a second chance, Manly also got their second wind via Penn and Delmege.

The two mergers are where my attention is focussed.

Both the lesser parties to the merged altar in Wests (Tigers) and Illawarra (St George) are now in much stronger positions and the wounds of the ill-treated have never healed.

Illawarra in particular could well stand alone and leave St George stranded.

Sure it is your opinion, cause that is what a forum is about !! :sarcasm:

However, the reality of your assesment on The Steelers is incorrect.
Are you familiar with the day to day running costs of a football team/club?
Are you aware the less financial clubs still operate on a budget of between $12million - $14million...thats just the struggos.....
(it is common knowledge that the accepted benchmark is $15million pa)

Where are the Steelers going to get that sort of money from up-front when you have Cronulla battling to stay afloat?
What about the inadequacies of WIN Stadium?
Where would Wests play out of?? Do you think the Tigers would simply slot back in to Leichardt (sp?)?
Who will pay for that?
Jubilee has just had $7-8million spent on a new stand. A similar amount is almost ready to go for further expansion of the stadium and seating.
Why would the NRL re-admit the Steelers?
Bruce Gordon of WINCORP has a financial interest in the Steelers but that also gets him a slice of the action with the Dragons - a much more nationally/ internationally recognisable brand than the Steelers ever will be! (and that is not meant to be a slur on the Steelers).
I don't really think "the wounds of the ill-treated" are an issue anymore. It has been 10 years and in that time the majority of supporters have accepted the marriage. I don't think it will dissolve....(I could be wrong) and yes there are some 'minor' factions that want the merger to simply go away. However, the benefits for both parties are there for all to see and any realist would, or should, accept this and be happy to support the one team.
You have opened a can of worms on this debate....excellent! I am sure together we have stirred the hornets nest..lol.
The budgetry restraints are just one of them and I will let greater minds than I discuss those points.
Expansion is the buzz-word - a truly National competition...but this could involve relocation and really be the lifeline for some of those clubs that are just barely hanging on.
Consequently, my suggestion of a second division competition involving promotion and relegation...that would be the only way for some of those teams you have mentioned to get back into the NRL.
Cheers.

 

[Perth Red]

1 - sorry, I disagree that they have 'realised' it does not work. the gap is wide, however it is so because the Premier League is the elite league and deservedly draws the big TV rights deals etc.

As would the NRL compared to a 2nd division

2 - your comments about 'low scoring opportunities' somehow makes it 'easier' for lesser teams to win games against top opposition I also disagree with. its not a game of chance mate!

no but soccer it is a game were a much weaker team can still beat a much better team. Hence the romance of the FA cup when non league teams beat premiership teams. tell me what the odds of a Jim Beam cup beating a NRL team would be?

3 - the money in the 2nd division Football League and EPL is comparable to the gap between the NRL and JB Cup. yes much bigger than ours but the ratio would be similar

Someone negated by the nature of soccer as a game, see above

4 - competitive - the benefits from P&R are twofold - it creates a great opportunity for lower league teams to develop local players, and bring them into the 'top flight' once promoted - players that might sit on the sidelines as second string players at 'glamour clubs' actually get to play first grade every week.

If there good enough they would be in teh first team. You can count on one hand how many players come out of the 2nd division into SL or the NSW cup into NRL (excluding players already contracted to NRL teams)

And, it promotes GOOD management, both financially and personnel - sh*t teams that are always bottom of the NRL currently get to stay there, without attracting good players, and bring the competition down. if they were faced with relegation, there would be extra impetus to work harder, trim the budget - better long term management to keep the club in the top flight.
Don't disagree about weak teams but the reality, as has been seen in SL for years, is the bottom team goes down and more often than not walks the 2nd division and comes back up but is too weak and yo yo's.

How would a newly promoted team be competitive? in the EPL once you are promoted you are given a huge cash injection for a start. Your supporter base automatically increases as your team gains national exposure. Bigger sponsors want to be part of the team. Bigger players want to be part of the winning culture.
Problem is the time to build a strong club and strong teamis alot more than the 4 months between winning promotion and kicking off in the new league

doesn't always work, but don't think promoted teams are simply 'thrown to the lions' and always fail. needs way more thought than I have given it of course -and it may be a sh*t idea at the end of the day, but certainly should be an idea on paper somewhere at the NRL I reckon!

Not saying it shouldn't be considered but going on experience of others I would leave well alone. There is the occasional exceptions such as Huddersfield who became a better club after being relegated and Hull KR who survived promotion and have gone from strength to strength but generally it doesn't work.

 

[Fein]

Sure it is your opinion, cause that is what a forum is about !! :sarcasm:

However, the reality of your assesment on The Steelers is incorrect.
Are you familiar with the day to day running costs of a football team/club?
Are you aware the less financial clubs still operate on a budget of between $12million - $14million...thats just the struggos.....
(it is common knowledge that the accepted benchmark is $15million pa)

Where are the Steelers going to get that sort of money from up-front when you have Cronulla battling to stay afloat?
What about the inadequacies of WIN Stadium?
Where would Wests play out of?? Do you think the Tigers would simply slot back in to Leichardt (sp?)?
Who will pay for that?
Jubilee has just had $7-8million spent on a new stand. A similar amount is almost ready to go for further expansion of the stadium and seating.
Why would the NRL re-admit the Steelers?
Bruce Gordon of WINCORP has a financial interest in the Steelers but that also gets him a slice of the action with the Dragons - a much more nationally/ internationally recognisable brand than the Steelers ever will be! (and that is not meant to be a slur on the Steelers).
I don't really think "the wounds of the ill-treated" are an issue anymore. It has been 10 years and in that time the majority of supporters have accepted the marriage. I don't think it will dissolve....(I could be wrong) and yes there are some 'minor' factions that want the merger to simply go away. However, the benefits for both parties are there for all to see and any realist would, or should, accept this and be happy to support the one team.
You have opened a can of worms on this debate....excellent! I am sure together we have stirred the hornets nest..lol.
The budgetry restraints are just one of them and I will let greater minds than I discuss those points.
Expansion is the buzz-word - a truly National competition...but this could involve relocation and really be the lifeline for some of those clubs that are just barely hanging on.
Consequently, my suggestion of a second division competition involving promotion and relegation...that would be the only way for some of those teams you have mentioned to get back into the NRL.
Cheers.

Cheers mate - good post.

The fact remains Gordon could buy the entire comp if he wanted to.

He chooses to support Illawarra.

St George (itself) as a brand is nowhere near as attractive as it once was.

It is the regional placement of WIN and it's continued and impressive growth that is the key to Gordon's strategy.

Illawarra no longer need St George but St George name would not survive without them.

That is the reality I'm afraid.

 

[Chachi]

Good to see Phil Gould and his 3 friends continue to death ride the Raiders.

 

[Loudstrat]

I get really upset the hear the nrl teams are in trouble.
Isn't NSW supposed to be the heartland of rugby league?
Now if that's the case, why don't supporters and the media make sure this doesn't happen.
Where's the passion of these teams supporters - go and buy memberships for your clubs. Surely if eventually each club can have 25,000+ members there would be no such talk.

Stop listening to the bullsh*t, and start worrying about your club.

You seem to be in a minority though and without some serious expenditure on existing grounds, corporate facilities (which lets face it brings in more than fans) are just not going to be good enough to financially sustain clubs. Some decent undercover stands would be a start so we don't see crowds half when it rains.

Minority? See the packed houst at Leichhardt for Wests v Titans? See many bigger crowds at ANZ for Wests last season?

 

[mt albert lions]

hopefully all the Sydney teams

 

[Scott Gourley's Lovechild]

Cheers mate - good post.

The fact remains Gordon could buy the entire comp if he wanted to.

He chooses to support Illawarra.

St George (itself) as a brand is nowhere near as attractive as it once was.

It is the regional placement of WIN and it's continued and impressive growth that is the key to Gordon's strategy.

Illawarra no longer need St George but St George name would not survive without them.

That is the reality I'm afraid.

The Gordon family doesn't give a sh*t about Illawarra footy. They are involved to make a buck, simple as that. At the moment, Steelers Leagues would be insolvent without being backed up by St George Leagues and by WIN Entertainment. Illawarra as a brand is exceptionally limited, and without the merger they would have fallen a long time ago. Fans do not attend games and locals prefer to be a member of Illawarra Leagues, which is the main contributor to the local game.

Check your facts. In this day and age money talks, and St George have money.

 

[krudmonk]

hopefully all the Sydney teams

Yes, because the sport would be just dandy with its premier comp cut in half.

 

[Fein]

The Gordon family doesn't give a sh*t about Illawarra footy. They are involved to make a buck, simple as that. At the moment, Steelers Leagues would be insolvent without being backed up by St George Leagues and by WIN Entertainment. Illawarra as a brand is exceptionally limited, and without the merger they would have fallen a long time ago. Fans do not attend games and locals prefer to be a member of Illawarra Leagues, which is the main contributor to the local game.

Check your facts. In this day and age money talks, and St George have money.

The Illawarra brand should be as powerful as Newcastles.

Smart people like the Gordon's will fix that.

 

[Perth Red]

Minority? See the packed houst at Leichhardt for Wests v Titans? See many bigger crowds at ANZ for Wests last season?

err yes, they had 3 crowds over 21,000 at ANZ! There ANZ average is around 19,000, their Leichhardt average around 14,000 and their Campbelltown around 11,000 last season. Facts don't lie!

http://www.rleague.com//db/year/2008/nrl_telstra_premiership/wests_tigers/index.php

 

[Scott Gourley's Lovechild]

The Illawarra brand should be as powerful as Newcastles.

Smart people like the Gordon's will fix that.

You still don't seem to realise that the Gordons don't care about fixing anything, they just want the $$$. They charge big dollars for St George to play out of WIN Stadium, bought land in Wollongong and the surrounding areas at an absolute bargain price from Steelers Leagues, and own 24% of the controlling interest in the STGI merger (STG 50%, IS 26%, WIN24%) as another avenue of private revenue raising. The only money they have used in the merger was to buy Steelers Leagues bad debts to St George for a stake in the club.

The Gordons haven't been great for sports business in the Illawarra either. Ask the Hawks, Wolves, and the recent Southern Coast FC A-League bid.