unionist curious about league rules

[bobrock]

I often read league fans expressions like “kick’n’clap” used about union, but actually union rules are not that encouraging about kicking the ball as attacking option when you’re close to the try line, while in league I see regularly kicking the ball to the line, with a drop out as the most likely result. It sometimes looks to me as a too easy attacking option that makes these passages of play quite predictable. From my union like point of view this seems an unfair advantage gifted to the attacking side, but I feel it could be seen also as a reasonable compensation for the hard work necessary to get close to the try line, having to hand over possession every six tackles. So I wonder if these rules have always been like they are now, or have been shaped in this way when the limited tackles rule was introduced. I really can’t figure out what the game was like before that.

 

[Evil Homer]

The term 'kick and clap' is used because instead of attempting any sort of attacking play, Union teams often prefer to aimlessly kick the ball away, either directly to the opposition (who will inevitably kick it straight back), or out of play on the full, the latter usually being met with a round of applause for some reason. There's no skill involved, and it's incredibly tedious for anyone who wants to see attacking play. In league it's not particularly easy to force a drop out and it's certainly not predictable or repetitive. The ball will usually be kicked on the 5th tackle, so that's 5 attacking plays before the kick. Compare this to Union where you get one attacking play if you are lucky. League is an attacking game where play with the ball is encouraged, and if teams are skillful enough to force repeat sets then they deserve the rewards for that.

I'm not old enough to remember the days of unlimited tackles, but I don't think it matters too much. League has got to where it is today by changing and evolving the rules to improve the sport.

 

[Western_Eel]

The term 'kick and clap' is used because instead of attempting any sort of attacking play, Union teams often prefer to aimlessly kick the ball away, either directly to the opposition (who will inevitably kick it straight back), or out of play on the full, the latter usually being met with a round of applause for some reason. There's no skill involved, and it's incredibly tedious for anyone who wants to see attacking play. In league it's not particularly easy to force a drop out and it's certainly not predictable or repetitive. The ball will usually be kicked on the 5th tackle, so that's 5 attacking plays before the kick. Compare this to Union where you get one attacking play if you are lucky. League is an attacking game where play with the ball is encouraged, and if teams are skillful enough to force repeat sets then they deserve the rewards for that.

I'm not old enough to remember the days of unlimited tackles, but I don't think it matters too much. League has got to where it is today by changing and evolving the rules to improve the sport.

Sums it up nicely

 

[bobmar28]

I often read league fans expressions like “kick’n’clap” used about union, but actually union rules are not that encouraging about kicking the ball as attacking option when you’re close to the try line, while in league I see regularly kicking the ball to the line, with a drop out as the most likely result. It sometimes looks to me as a too easy attacking option that makes these passages of play quite predictable. From my union like point of view this seems an unfair advantage gifted to the attacking side, but I feel it could be seen also as a reasonable compensation for the hard work necessary to get close to the try line, having to hand over possession every six tackles. So I wonder if these rules have always been like they are now, or have been shaped in this way when the limited tackles rule was introduced. I really can’t figure out what the game was like before that.

Far from being predictable, when the bomb comes down the ball can go anywhere if it hits the ground. If it is caught by an attacking player there is a good chance of a try being scored. If the defending team gets the ball they will probably be trapped near their own try line with just 6 tackles to get out of their red zone.

 

[Sam_the_man]

Another reason why union is called kick and clap. Look at how many tries have been scored in the last three world cup finals.

 

[El Diablo]

Another reason why union is called kick and clap. Look at how many tries have been scored in the last three world cup finals.

South Africa haven't scored a try in either RUWC final win IIRC

 

[bobrock]

You may aknowledge it or not, but there ARE skills involved in kicking the ball in union too, as you can do it in a proper and effective way, or not.
Thanks for the replies anyway.

 

[bobrock]

Half time at Parramatta, so I can use a couple of minutes more. You always forget that in union you can lose the ball every time you're tackled, so it's quite obvious that every time you receive a ball from a kick and all your team mates are in front of you, it's very dangerous to attack with the ball in hand not having support behind you. That's why they kick so often in that situation. But when they're attacking close to the try line ( that was what I was talking about ) kicking the ball too long, out of the try area, gives the ball to the defending team for a scrum from the point where the ball was kicked. So you don't see they doing it that often, while in league, if I understand, kicking the ball to the line it's a gamble you can always take as you have nothing to lose. I don't want to push it too far, I'm not here to troll, I'm just curious.

 

[roughyedspud]

jason robinson showed what can be done in union if you run it back instead of kicking it......now chris ashton is doing it too


both league players....enough said

 

[Evil Homer]

Half time at Parramatta, so I can use a couple of minutes more. You always forget that in union you can lose the ball every time you're tackled, so it's quite obvious that every time you receive a ball from a kick and all your team mates are in front of you, it's very dangerous to attack with the ball in hand not having support behind you. That's why they kick so often in that situation. But when they're attacking close to the try line ( that was what I was talking about ) kicking the ball too long, out of the try area, gives the ball to the defending team for a scrum from the point where the ball was kicked. So you don't see they doing it that often, while in league, if I understand, kicking the ball to the line it's a gamble you can always take as you have nothing to lose. I don't want to push it too far, I'm not here to troll, I'm just curious.

Kicking the ball too long in league results in posession to the defending team, just as it does in Union. Equally, if a defending player catches the ball on the full in the in-goal area, then it's again a turnover in posession. If anything, the punishment is a lot worse in league than in Union, as it gives an easy 20 metres to the opposition, relieves all the pressure that has been built and guarantees them 6 tackles. Teams kick the ball on the 5th tackle because if they don't they will lose posession regardless, so it makes sense to take the risk. They don't kick it on every single play, I could understand your point if that was the case. As you say, Union rules discourage attacking play and encourage aimless kicking in the majority of cases, the only time league rules encourage kicking is as a last resort when the defence has stood firm for 5 tackles.

 

[Mr_Ugly]

I don't think too many people would argue that a try scored by moving the ball through hands is generally more exciting than one scored from a kick. The key thing either way however, is that the best way to score points in league is through scoring tries (whether from kicks or tries), rather than by kicking a field goal or bogging down play in the opposition half waiting for a penalty.

You always forget that in union you can lose the ball every time you're tackled, so it's quite obvious that every time you receive a ball from a kick and all your team mates are in front of you, it's very dangerous to attack with the ball in hand not having support behind you. That's why they kick so often in that situation.

Agreed. While union fans would clearly disagree, most leaguies find union to be a duller and less skillful code and the reason for that is inherent in union's rules.

 

[docbrown]

Kicking the ball too long in league results in posession to the defending team, just as it does in Union.

True. But I think we could modify the kicked dead in goal rule slightly. In my opinion it should be returned to the kicker's position (but at least 20 metres minimum) for a quick tap.

To me it punishes lazy kicking and forces teams to always think about the last tackle option. It also encourages teams to try and get far up the field as possible (because a potentially bad kick will reward the opposition...)

I think though there should be a time limit on the return though.

I love it when a team on the attack screws up then immediately has to turn around and go on the defensive. There's a great 10-20 seconds of anarchy and it total shifts the game's momentum.

Union doesn't take advantage of this concept because it's immediately bogged down in the mire of scrums, but in League it would be all about encouraging an attacking play.

 

[bobrock]

True. But I think we could modify the kicked dead in goal rule slightly. In my opinion it should be returned to the kicker's position (but at least 20 metres minimum) for a quick tap.

To me it punishes lazy kicking and forces teams to always think about the last tackle option. It also encourages teams to try and get far up the field as possible (because a potentially bad kick will reward the opposition...)

Maybe I had a point, after all.

 

[docbrown]

Maybe I had a point, after all.

No not really. Union doesn't use it to set up an attacking play, it uses it to have another scrum. Theres no sudden shift in momentum. In league you see the ball returners try and race back to catch out the offside defence. I am simply saying we should extend that league concept further to encourage the attacking return - which you don't get in union

 

[bobrock]

But that's exactly what I said in my first post. The current rule is rewarding almost any kick to the try line, good or bad. While, as you suggest, bad kicks should be penalized in some way. By the way, in an english forum I've found a thread dedicated to this matter, and a poster wrote literaly : "I don't like yawnion but we should do like they do and put the ball back where it was kicked". OK, I know, they're english, but they know about league too.
That's enough for me, you've been kind to answer and both codes are alive and well.

 

[Evil Homer]

But that's exactly what I said in my first post. The current rule is rewarding almost any kick to the try line, good or bad. While, as you suggest, bad kicks should be penalized in some way. By the way, in an english forum I've found a thread dedicated to this matter, and a poster wrote literaly : "I don't like yawnion but we should do like they do and put the ball back where it was kicked". OK, I know, they're english, but they know about league too.
That's enough for me, you've been kind to answer and both codes are alive and well.

It's not rewarding it at all! If it's a bad kick, the opposition will get posession. The fact that you rarely see bad kicks is down to the skill of the players, not the rules in place.

 

[docbrown]

But that's exactly what I said in my first post. The current rule is rewarding almost any kick to the try line, good or bad. While, as you suggest, bad kicks should be penalized in some way. By the way, in an english forum I've found a thread dedicated to this matter, and a poster wrote literaly : "I don't like yawnion but we should do like they do and put the ball back where it was kicked". OK, I know, they're english, but they know about league too.
That's enough for me, you've been kind to answer and both codes are alive and well.

It's not rewarded in league at all. A bad kick is penalised by giving the opposition 20metres and an immediate attacking play. The only thing I've suggested is that in league we should penalise it even further by giving even another 10-30 metres.

In Union there is no immediate attacking play. It goes back for a scrum which wastes 2-3 minutes. Union has a similar rule but it isn't use in the same way.

In League you immediately see players bringing it back to the 20 metres to go on the attack. The other team has to immediate turn tail and race back to get onside.

In Union they just shuffle along because it doesn't matter because they know it's just going to be another scrum wastage. There's a big difference there in those 2 concepts.

 

[Parra]

The speculator kick in league is as annoying as the penalty kick option in union.

However these options are both selected for the same reason - better risk/reward ratio than the other options available.


It is amazing how much union people in this thread watch considering most don't seem to enjoy or understand it.

 

[bobrock]

I could easily say the same. You all talk a lot about union with huge confidence on your knowledge of the game. Unjustified confidence sometimes.

 

[VonVolks]

one major difference is that Union encourages attacking kicks, as they give HUGE in goal areas, compared with league.

Leagues tighter in goals demand the attacking kick is accurate, or the defence will just get a 20m restart.
A high kick to the in goal will result in a jump off, if accurate and well pursued, but again, if caught by the defence will result in a 20m restart.