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Ultrathread I: Thread of the Year - 2014

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whall15

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15,871
Nope. Patriotism is the quiet bloke in the corner down at the pub who fought in WW2 and loves his country. Jingoism is just dumbass bogans using some twisted idea of national identity to excuse their dumbass bogan behaviour. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your country, in fact it's no more irrational that you supporting Parramatta

As for a world govt...well that just goes against the basic evolutionary mechanics of being human

I view World War II as more about ridding the world of the patriotic excess (nationalistic is probably a better term although I have really conflated the two already) of Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan.

Bazal's already struck on it a little in his reply. We aren't made to be in civilizations the size we're in now, so I dread to think how we'd function with a guy in Switzerland or Bahrain or South Korea making decisions for people all around the world.

Well in fairness, it wouldn't be one guy, it would be a super-parliament extended around the world as we see in modern nations today. Just as I may be represented by my own MP that would just happen on a much larger scale.

You'll never completely do away with religion, especially when it's intrinsincly linked to cultures as it is in both Islam and Judaism.

Even if you somehow managed to eradicate religion (which is, in itself, an incredibly bigoted thing to aspire to), it would still be a nightmare. Different cultures have vastly different wants and needs. China can't even govern the multiple ethnic groups it has now fairly, nor do we manage it in Australia with considerably less variety in our mix.

I disagree entirely. Look at Western culture, we have removed Christianity virtually entirely and naturally from our culture and we're not only survived but prospered. I'm not aspiring to eradicate religion I just think it will naturally occur. In the European Union as a whole as of 2010 only 51% of the population professed a belief in any god, religious people will be a pretty small minority in my lifetime if that trend continues and it should do.

China fails to manage it because they have a draconian authoritarian government who in many respects persecutes minority groups. What I am talking about is an all-inclusive global society and I believe that should be our goal.
 

Misanthrope

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Well in fairness, it wouldn't be one guy, it would be a super-parliament extended around the world as we see in modern nations today. Just as I may be represented by my own MP that would just happen on a much larger scale.

The issue is, that's inefficient even at the level we use it at now. The entire region I'm from (New England) has one guy representing its interests, but he can't actually get any of those interests supported because nobody in Sydney or Canberra gives two f**ks about the area.

I can't imagine less resource rich parts of the world are going to be treated any better under world governance.

I disagree entirely. Look at Western culture, we have removed Christianity virtually entirely and naturally from our culture and we're not only survived but prospered. I'm not aspiring to eradicate religion I just think it will naturally occur. In the European Union as a whole as of 2010 only 51% of the population professed a belief in any god, religious people will be a pretty small minority in my lifetime if that trend continues and it should do.
You say virtually entirely when your own stats show that a majority still profess belief in a god :lol:

Christianity still influences policy such as abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage; not to mention defining major holidays and over-arcing values such as marriage, burial rites etc.

It's not as powerful as it was politically, and that is certainly a good thing, but it's far from gone - and I think it's an odd concept to believe that we need something that does a lot of good in addition to the more well publicized evil to disappear before we can progress.

China fails to manage it because they have a draconian authoritarian government who in many respects persecutes minority groups. What I am talking about is an all-inclusive global society and I believe that should be our goal.
Not possible. Humans are not wired to want to share everything equally and be all happy together. You can't put ten guys in a room together without somebody being the superior and somebody being the inferior.

China does have a draconian government that persecutes minorities, but name me a country that doesn't persecute minorities. Hell, I'm a white male (arguably the most powerful group on earth) and I get treated like absolute shit here in China in many respects, while being treated like a visiting God in others.
 

Bazal

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Germany and Japan were leagues away from patriotism and much more tied to race. Germany were scorned by the sanctions imposed after WW1 and led by a megalomaniac. Japan simply wanted to rule the world. The common thread is not national pride, it's that the Nazis and the Japanese both viewed themselves as a superior race.

Mussolini doesn't count, he was a bottom feeder who clung into whomever he felt would rise to the top
 

Bazal

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China fails to manage it because they have a draconian authoritarian government who in many respects persecutes minority groups. What I am talking about is an all-inclusive global society and I believe that should be our goal.

It will never happen. We are a tribal species....in fact all intelligent life on earth is tribal. We are too different to ever truly integrate into a global society, and that's what's driven our evolution as a species thus far. We are individuals within individual social groups and I think the idea of taking that away is completely and totally inhuman.
 

whall15

Coach
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15,871
The issue is, that's inefficient even at the level we use it at now. The entire region I'm from (New England) has one guy representing its interests, but he can't actually get any of those interests supported because nobody in Sydney or Canberra gives two f**ks about the area.

I can't imagine less resource rich parts of the world are going to be treated any better under world governance.

This kinda links into my idea for a global taxation, welfare, education and healthcare system but that's probably a discussion for another day.

You say virtually entirely when your own stats show that a majority still profess belief in a god :lol:

For Christ's sake Mis (perhaps somewhat ironically) I'm using it to demonstrate a trend. Europe in a very short period has gone from a continent plagued in sectarian conflict to a continent where religiosity itself is almost the minority (might already be, that data is 4 years old and it's changing very quickly)

Christianity still influences policy such as abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage; not to mention defining major holidays and over-arcing values such as marriage, burial rites etc.

Not really. As we're looking at this through the prism of western society abortion is legal throughout the uber-religious US, Australia and the vast majority of Europe with the exceptions of Poland, Malta and Ireland. So we've already won on that issue. Marriage equality has been achieved throughout Western Europe, NZ and parts of the United States and within probably twenty years it will have been won everywhere in the Western World with the exception of the Deep South of the US. Euthanasia is a bit of a tougher one and I don't that is as strongly affiliated with religion and a couple of holidays and burial rites is a non issue.

It's not as powerful as it was politically, and that is certainly a good thing, but it's far from gone - and I think it's an odd concept to believe that we need something that does a lot of good in addition to the more well publicized evil to disappear before we can progress.

I disagree with your concept that religion does good. Ultimately all religion is a constraining influence on already bad people. I don't need an antiquated book to tell me basic morals like not to murder and quite frankly if you do need that, as I said you must be a tremendously bad person.

Not possible. Humans are not wired to want to share everything equally and be all happy together. You can't put ten guys in a room together without somebody being the superior and somebody being the inferior.

A capitalist economic system will remain, albeit a well-regulated one.

China does have a draconian government that persecutes minorities, but name me a country that doesn't persecute minorities. Hell, I'm a white male (arguably the most powerful group on earth) and I get treated like absolute shit here in China in many respects, while being treated like a visiting God in others.

That feeds into my point that the nationstate encourages the persecution of minority groups by treating them as an other instead of as a human being. That will be prevented by a global government.
 

Misanthrope

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Not really. As we're looking at this through the prism of western society abortion is legal throughout the uber-religious US, Australia and the vast majority of Europe with the exceptions of Poland, Malta and Ireland. So we've already won on that issue. Marriage equality has been achieved throughout Western Europe, NZ and parts of the United States and within probably twenty years it will have been won everywhere in the Western World with the exception of the Deep South of the US. Euthanasia is a bit of a tougher one and I don't that is as strongly affiliated with religion and a couple of holidays and burial rites is a non issue.

The fact that they had to be 'beaten' shows that religion still does play a powerful political role. I can't foresee that changing anytime soon in the west, and certainly not anytime soon in nations like Israel or India, or regions like the Middle East.

I disagree with your concept that religion does good. Ultimately all religion is a constraining influence on already bad people. I don't need an antiquated book to tell me basic morals like not to murder and quite frankly if you do need that, as I said you must be a tremendously bad person.

We've discussed religion in this thread before. You've completely overlooking the community aspect of religion which, if anything, your concept of a global government will only reinforce the need for as society becomes too big for people as individuals to feel a part of something.

Religion is not solely a moral code. You're overlooking the aforementioned community aspect, as well as the good work religious organisations all over the world have done and continue to do in the form of charitable donations, volunteer work etc.

Yes, atheists and agnostics also do this work, but the world would be a poorer place if religious charitable organisations ceased to exist. There's no guarantee non-secular ones would just spring up to fill the hole.

A capitalist economic system will remain, albeit a well-regulated one.

Because capitalism has proven to be such a fantastic and egalitarian system so far?

That feeds into my point that the nationstate encourages the persecution of minority groups by treating them as an other instead of as a human being. That will be prevented by a global government.

I see what you're aiming for idealistically, but how does making government even farther removed from the people achieve this? Essentially, you'd do away with smaller ethnic biases in favour of larger ethnic ones. How many Caucasians are going to feel their interests are adequately represented by Asian or African leadership and vice versa?

You say there would ideally be a council of some sort, but ultimately, people are inherently mistrusting of differences. If you somehow manage to homogenize humanity to the point that we're all a uniform gray, we'll only find other things to differentiate ourselves through. Social hierarchies will form and persecution will continue.

It's human nature to aspire to be better than somebody else. It's human nature to want to be around like minded (and like cultured) people, and it's human nature to be uncomfortable with that which is different. This discomfort most often manifests as racism/sexism/homophobia in the less educated, and more subtle political maneuvering in those smart enough to hide their discomfort behind policy.
 

afinalsin666

First Grade
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8,163
We back on religion again? That well is dry.

Designer babies and genetically modifying animals and people and plants and shit. Yay/nay-why?
 

Misanthrope

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We back on religion again? That well is dry.

Designer babies and genetically modifying animals and people and plants and shit. Yay/nay-why?

Religion is a small part of a much larger political conversation :lol:

-----

As to your question, I have no issues with genetic engineering for crops or to help endangered animals, but I'm against designer babies.

Not for religious reasons, but simply because the world would be a dreary place if everybody was blonde haired, blue eyed, and had a 150 IQ.
 

Didgi

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17,260
Plants and animals where it is to the benefit of society, considering a few factors including food, preservation of natural environment (oh the hypocrisy).

Humans only where failing to do so would result in a material disadvantage to the child - and by that I mean a serious illness or condition, outside of the practical diversities of life - not that the kid will be fat or short.
 

RHCP

Bench
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4,784
GM crops definitely. Golden Rice for example, getting Vitamin A to people who desperately need it without the massive cost of nation wide supplement schemes.
 

Misanthrope

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I'd be for modifying children if it were removing potentially life threatening or quality of life lowering birth defects.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
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I'd be for modifying children if it were removing potentially life threatening or quality of life lowering birth defects.

life threatening birth defects, yes..

but as for the others, i dunno.. if it's not going to kill them, it's part of being human really..

our 2nd was born with a 1 in 10,000 defect.. was depressing at first, trying to think of ways it can be fixed, trying to work out what happened..

but, it doesn't look like it will affect her life, and now it's actually a cute little quirk that makes her unique..

well.. unique in every ten thousand people anyway...
 

Misanthrope

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life threatening birth defects, yes..

but as for the others, i dunno.. if it's not going to kill them, it's part of being human really..

our 2nd was born with a 1 in 10,000 defect.. was depressing at first, trying to think of ways it can be fixed, trying to work out what happened..

but, it doesn't look like it will affect her life, and now it's actually a cute little quirk that makes her unique..

well.. unique in every ten thousand people anyway...

Sorry to hear that, mate.

Well, I'm not sure where you'd draw the line. I mean, Down's Syndrome is certainly not life threatening, but I think anybody would agree that it does in many ways detract from a child being able to lead a full life.

I know children with the condition who are doubtlessly happy growing up, but they're instantly denied many basic human experiences. If we could avoid that, I'd be all for it.
 

muzby

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oh, and back to mini muzby, her tail doesn't get in the way that often..
 

Misanthrope

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if you don't know what you're missing out on, are you missing out?

True enough, but all things being equal, wouldn't it be a better world if every child at least had the same opportunity to pursue basic things like getting married, having children, and working?

Obviously, it's a much bigger task to actually fix the world so everybody has an equal opportunity. Country of birth, religion, appearance, intelligence, upbringing etc are still going to be a factor - so why not at least eliminate the hindrance we can (potentially) control?

In an ideal world, we'd be able to remove the risk of severe mental or physical handicaps. Happy as people can be with them can be, I can't imagine a negative side to ensuring no children are born with a condition that may deprive them of a full life.
 

Misanthrope

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(I should point out that my position is biased by my foster brother being heavily physically and mentally handicapped. In his case, he'll never be brighter than the average 4 or 5 year old despite being fifteen, nor is he able to walk unassisted or use his hands to do most basic tasks)
 

Twizzle

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Just think of all the wars and/or conflicts that would have be avoided if there were only one religious belief
 
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