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Things we need to Re-Build

Messages
389
Well, another disaster of a season in 2015. The writing was on the wall way back in October when Hayne left at late notice, however this isn't the problem as we haven't been competitive (bar a golden 3 month period in 2009) since maybe 2007. We seem either to be a hot and cold side or a side that's way off the pace. So what needs to be done? Here for mine are the obvious top 3.

1. Depth. Particularly in our outside backs. No side has deep depth at half (bar maybe the Dogs) but almost every club has an outside back that can come up and fill in and do a job. The likes of Corey Thompson, David Simmons, Daniel Vidot, a promising U20s kid...most clubs have this type of player on the fringe who will come in and do a job. We have this type of player as a starting center (Ryan Morgan) and once we cop an injury we're putting guys like David Gower, Vai Tautai, even Manu Mau in the backline. Just shows how disgracefully our cap has been managed when we can barely fill a 1st grade quality backline let alone have depth in any position. We seem to only want to blood big strong somewhat slow outside backs. Maybe that goes back to the sort of players we bring through our junior system but you can't have the same type of player coming through all the time. We need an injection of speed. Re-signing Ryan Morgan is a joke , he's shown absolutely nothing in 60+ first grade games and isn't even worthy of being kept for depth. At least keep Reece Robinson who's shown he has an ability to play 1st grade and has speed which we are really lacking.
A lack of players outside our top 19 means guys like Watmough, Moreoa and co played half the season busted which really told on us as the seasons gone on. The salary cap must be better managed.

2. Leadership. Why Tim Mannah was groomed as a leader baffles me. He plays 47 mins a game, is an honest toiler at best and has been through the most inconsistent period in our history and shows these scars more than anyone else. You need to see a game of young Timmy from around 2009/2010 and have a look at the difference. He was all energy, all smile on his face and really gave us good go forward especially off the bench. These days he's a solid toiler who looks like he's played a decade of losing seasons and has no belief. Despite what he says publicly about new attitudes and being more mentally tough etc.. I don't think even he believes it. I honestly see as much if not more impact from Alvaro the past 3 weeks. Mannah is an older Alvaro without the energy and with more baggage. Maybe would be best for both of us to spend some time apart. Mannah to enjoy playing again without that burden of losing seasons and us to REALLY get a culture change. This squad is so mentally weak it's not funny. We concede the most trys off penalties in the NRL and have no body who stands up to change momentum when it starts going against us. Dead set no leadership at all.

3 Stop Paying Overs for has beens. Man we really need to have a look at this going forward. I can excuse playing overs for a gun half or a gun fullback but paying way overs for forwards based on leadership is stupid. Watmough and Scott have been bought on massive overs because (see number 2) and to try inject a culture change. However whilst we may get something out of these guys in 2016, 2017, whats going to be left of them in 2018/2019? Just a big hit to our salary cap meaning we have less depth and lose 2 or 3 of the players whose culture they've helped develop. You need your long serving players and big name expensive signings to be setting your culture and if our longer serving players like Mannah, Morgan, Norman, Peats etc can't set the tone for the younger players then at least a couple of them who don't contribute anything great on the field need to be moved on. Watching Scott the last few weeks he seems to be on a down hill slide. Even if we prep him up for 1 year with a change of clubs what's he going to be like the next 3? The money could've been better spend elsewhere if the deal with him was to be that long. Should've been signed for 2 years max along with Watmough at 3 years max.

Apologies for the long post I could've come up with 10 more points but this is a really hard club to follow. They want us to dip into our pockets to sign up for membership and we are continually provided with a club that's poorly run, poorly managed, is potrayed negatively in the media and is completely inconsistent to down right embarrassing on the field. Why should we as fans enter every season with limited hope and watch the last 6 or 7 games almost yearly with nothing to play for? We all stick through thick and thin but the club owes each of its members more and should be putting a competitive team out weekly for 24 rounds a year win/ lose or draw.
 
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hineyrulz

Post Whore
Messages
148,901
Can't argue with any of that, especially our depth in outside backs which is just laughable. While we continue to stock pile plodding forwards we haven't signed one outside back which is just mind boggling.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
74,075
Can't argue with any of that, especially our depth in outside backs which is just laughable. While we continue to stock pile plodding forwards we haven't signed one outside back which is just mind boggling.

I too would love some classy centers. Who wouldn't ? BUT the flaw in your argument is that we are statistically one of the better attacking teams in the comp.

It's our kicking game and leaking points that lets us down.

http://www.nrl.com/stats/telstrapremiership/clubstatistics/tabid/10254/default.aspx
 

Joshuatheeel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
19,611
Well, another disaster of a season in 2015. The writing was on the wall way back in October when Hayne left at late notice, however this isn't the problem as we haven't been competitive (bar a golden 3 month period in 2009) since maybe 2007. We seem either to be a hot and cold side or a side that's way off the pace. So what needs to be done? Here for mine are the obvious top 3.

1. Depth. Particularly in our outside backs. No side has deep depth at half (bar maybe the Dogs) but almost every club has an outside back that can come up and fill in and do a job. The likes of Corey Thompson, David Simmons, Daniel Vidot, a promising U20s kid...most clubs have this type of player on the fringe who will come in and do a job. We have this type of player as a starting center (Ryan Morgan) and once we cop an injury we're putting guys like David Gower, Vai Tautai, even Manu Mau in the backline. Just shows how disgracefully our cap has been managed when we can barely fill a 1st grade quality backline let alone have depth in any position. We seem to only want to blood big strong somewhat slow outside backs. Maybe that goes back to the sort of players we bring through our junior system but you can't have the same type of player coming through all the time. We need an injection of speed. Re-signing Ryan Morgan is a joke , he's shown absolutely nothing in 60+ first grade games and isn't even worthy of being kept for depth. At least keep Reece Robinson who's shown he has an ability to play 1st grade and has speed which we are really lacking.
A lack of players outside our top 19 means guys like Watmough, Moreoa and co played half the season busted which really told on us as the seasons gone on. The salary cap must be better managed.

2. Leadership. Why Tim Mannah was groomed as a leader baffles me. He plays 47 mins a game, is an honest toiler at best and has been through the most inconsistent period in our history and shows these scars more than anyone else. You need to see a game of young Timmy from around 2009/2010 and have a look at the difference. He was all energy, all smile on his face and really gave us good go forward especially off the bench. These days he's a solid toiler who looks like he's played a decade of losing seasons and has no belief. Despite what he says publicly about new attitudes and being more mentally tough etc.. I don't think even he believes it. I honestly see as much if not more impact from Alvaro the past 3 weeks. Mannah is an older Alvaro without the energy and with more baggage. Maybe would be best for both of us to spend some time apart. Mannah to enjoy playing again without that burden of losing seasons and us to REALLY get a culture change. This squad is so mentally weak it's not funny. We concede the most trys off penalties in the NRL and have no body who stands up to change momentum when it starts going against us. Dead set no leadership at all.

3 Stop Paying Overs for has beens. Man we really need to have a look at this going forward. I can excuse playing overs for a gun half or a gun fullback but paying way overs for forwards based on leadership is stupid. Watmough and Scott have been bought on massive overs because (see number 2) and to try inject a culture change. However whilst we may get something out of these guys in 2016, 2017, whats going to be left of them in 2018/2019? Just a big hit to our salary cap meaning we have less depth and lose 2 or 3 of the players whose culture they've helped develop. You need your long serving players and big name expensive signings to be setting your culture and if our longer serving players like Mannah, Morgan, Norman, Peats etc can't set the tone for the younger players then at least a couple of them who don't contribute anything great on the field need to be moved on. Watching Scott the last few weeks he seems to be on a down hill slide. Even if we prep him up for 1 year with a change of clubs what's he going to be like the next 3? The money could've been better spend elsewhere if the deal with him was to be that long. Should've been signed for 2 years max along with Watmough at 3 years max.

Apologies for the long post I could've come up with 10 more points but this is a really hard club to follow. They want us to dip into our pockets to sign up for membership and we are continually provided with a club that's poorly run, poorly managed, is potrayed negatively in the media and is completely inconsistent to down right embarrassing on the field. Why should we as fans enter every season with limited hope and watch the last 6 or 7 games almost yearly with nothing to play for? We all stick through thick and thin but the club owes each of its members more and should be putting a competitive team out weekly for 24 rounds a year win/ lose or draw.

We do have depth players that can fill in, the issue is when you need to use 4-5 at the same time. For example take out any sides top 3 centres and half combo they will struggle. Then add losing your fullback in the off season, of course there will be struggles with depth.

Regarding not having any players outside our top 19 to give Watmough / moeroa a break, considering we have injuries to Peni/Pritchard / Richie / wicks / Edwards of course our depth will be tested.
 

zuke

Juniors
Messages
271
Agree 100% Ashley. And to think we sacked Daniel Anderson in 2010 because the team was under performing. We need Bill Moss (ex Macquarie bank exec) there in some capacity. We are a complete joke in media circles and in the general public. I think Foran signing was a must have and he definitely needs to be captain. Morgan, Paulo and Kelly should have been let go. Let's face it they wouldn't get a start anywhere else. Maybe uk superleague.
 

Twizzle

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
151,017
We do have some decent depth but we wont know how they will perform in the NRL this season due to the 2nd tier salary cap problems so we cant drop the likes of Sef, Lussick etc

It just aint that simple imo.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
74,075
We do have some decent depth but we wont know how they will perform in the NRL this season due to the 2nd tier salary cap problems so we cant drop the likes of Sef, Lussick etc

It just aint that simple imo.

Agree.
 

hineyrulz

Post Whore
Messages
148,901
We do have some decent depth but we wont know how they will perform in the NRL this season due to the 2nd tier salary cap problems so we cant drop the likes of Sef, Lussick etc

It just aint that simple imo.
Where is this depth you speak of???
 

crocodile

Bench
Messages
3,507
I'd suggest starting at the top. Management has been abysmal for years. Six coaches in ten years. It's a dark, dark place.
 

Joely01

Bench
Messages
4,553
We do have some decent depth but we wont know how they will perform in the NRL this season due to the 2nd tier salary cap problems so we cant drop the likes of Sef, Lussick etc

It just aint that simple imo.

There really is no point continuing to try and explain this Twiz.

If some on here still don't understand the fact we have 2nd tier cap problems (The NRL basically chooses our team for us) and the fact yesterday alone we had 12 players who would have been in that team but are injured/left.
They just never will get it.

Hiney wants to go on about me always seeing the positive side, its not true at all. But what i am being is realistic. Something i don't think a couple on here are being.
 

Joshuatheeel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
19,611
There really is no point continuing to try and explain this Twiz.

If some on here still don't understand the fact we have 2nd tier cap problems (The NRL basically chooses our team for us) and the fact yesterday alone we had 12 players who would have been in that team but are injured/left.
They just never will get it.

Hiney wants to go on about me always seeing the positive side, its not true at all. But what i am being is realistic. Something i don't think a couple on here are being.

Compared our side last night to our round one side in addition to the injuries to our "depth" players.
 
Messages
389
It's not just the 2nd tier cap problems, its a complete lack of depth.

Just because someone has played 1st grade and you've heard of them doesn't make them 'depth;. We have too many players like this.

Ryan Morgan... I cannot believe we are about to re-sign this bloke. I bet he's seen by those that matter as depth. He can play centre, and wing and has 60 odd games experience.

Problem is at Centre he has no creativity, can't beat his opposite with speed, footwork, a fend, doesn't run good lines, can't set up his winger (a HUGE problem for him). Defensively he makes the odd good read coupled with the odd bad read. On the wing he literally needs an open try line to run into, not to mention the time to get there. He turns full chances into half chances, lacks the ability to finish in tight situations, isn't good at returning kicks or taking pressure off his forwards and is average under the high ball. He's dead set shown NOTHING and next to no improvement. You want this sort of player you invest 3 or 4 years in to really be hitting their straps as a 1st grader now.

We have a winger last night who's played under 10 games who's shown more in them than Morgan. Why on earth are we re-signing him. I don't care if he's deemed depth at the right price, he's not a 1st grade quality player at all. We really need to stop getting sucked in to signing players like this and look for quality depth that can contribute and do a job regularly when called upon.
 

Joely01

Bench
Messages
4,553
It's not just the 2nd tier cap problems, its a complete lack of depth.

Just because someone has played 1st grade and you've heard of them doesn't make them 'depth;. We have too many players like this.

Ryan Morgan... I cannot believe we are about to re-sign this bloke. I bet he's seen by those that matter as depth. He can play centre, and wing and has 60 odd games experience.

Problem is at Centre he has no creativity, can't beat his opposite with speed, footwork, a fend, doesn't run good lines, can't set up his winger (a HUGE problem for him). Defensively he makes the odd good read coupled with the odd bad read. On the wing he literally needs an open try line to run into, not to mention the time to get there. He turns full chances into half chances, lacks the ability to finish in tight situations, isn't good at returning kicks or taking pressure off his forwards and is average under the high ball. He's dead set shown NOTHING and next to no improvement. You want this sort of player you invest 3 or 4 years in to really be hitting their straps as a 1st grader now.

We have a winger last night who's played under 10 games who's shown more in them than Morgan. Why on earth are we re-signing him. I don't care if he's deemed depth at the right price, he's not a 1st grade quality player at all. We really need to stop getting sucked in to signing players like this and look for quality depth that can contribute and do a job regularly when called upon.

You mention one player.

You do realize Burrito isnt allowed to play more due to second tier cap?
The second tier cap issues are the reason for this complete lack of depth you talk about.

I just really don't get it. Take 12, 12!!! f**king players from any team and watch how they go. 2 of those being your starting halves and another 2 your starting centres.
 
Messages
389
Because our fringe 1st graders are shit! Even some of our first 17 are reserve grade quality.

We're near last in NSW Cup and these are the guys we call upon to fill the void in 1st grade? The issue runs deeper than the top 25, are 2nd tier players aren't quality at all and our Under 20's coming through (considering the size of our junior nursery) aren't looking flash as a team either. Who was the last genuine 1st grade quality outside back that came through our system?

I get all teams will struggle missing players (especially in key positions) but the guys we bring in would seriously struggle to get a run in some NSW Cup teams.
 

yy_cheng

Coach
Messages
18,227
Alvaro wasnt that bad. Honest simple and just goes forward. Someone worth keeping as a backup who is cheap and solid
 
Messages
389
Alvaro wasnt that bad. Honest simple and just goes forward. Someone worth keeping as a backup who is cheap and solid

Agree he looked solid and ran with energy.

The issue here is we shouldn't be wasting cap on guys who have been given a chance and shown they aren't 1st grade quality and not doing the job at a 1st grade level consistently.

Ryan Morgan, Joseph Paulo (seriously did he throw 20 hospital passes last night?), Vai Tauati, Luke Kelly. I understand they're in our system now and we have to pick from what we have but none of them should be re-signed. Joseph Paulo was re-signed last year. Why? He's a complete hack and not somebody you can call on to fill in. He's not shown an ability to do what we require. Another nothing player who;s somewhere between having the skills to play as a half or creative foward and the toughness to play in the forwards when required. We view that as depth to play a number of positions in reality he's not quite good enough to play any ala Morgan.
 

Joshuatheeel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
19,611
Agree he looked solid and ran with energy.

The issue here is we shouldn't be wasting cap on guys who have been given a chance and shown they aren't 1st grade quality and not doing the job at a 1st grade level consistently.

Ryan Morgan, Joseph Paulo (seriously did he throw 20 hospital passes last night?), Vai Tauati, Luke Kelly. I understand they're in our system now and we have to pick from what we have but none of them should be re-signed. Joseph Paulo was re-signed last year. Why? He's a complete hack and not somebody you can call on to fill in. He's not shown an ability to do what we require. Another nothing player who;s somewhere between having the skills to play as a half or creative foward and the toughness to play in the forwards when required. We view that as depth to play a number of positions in reality he's not quite good enough to play any ala Morgan.

Sides will always struggle when several depth players need to move up to the NRL.

I understand what you are saying about our depth players but it isn't as simple as getting better ones. It all comes down to what they are worth. For example Morgan/Kelly may be willing to accept a minimum contract for 2016 while better back up's may want $150k, do we want to waste that type of money on a player to be sitting in NSW cup.

Plus any depth player that is going to kill it in the NRL won't be a depth player for too long. And no junior with potential is going to come for bugger all, making them a risk.

I actually don't think Morgan / Kelly are that bad as back ups, it's just when they are paired with other depth players. Kelly actually looked ok when partnering Norrman a few weeks ago yet struggles when he is the sole half - but then that is why he is a back up.

Ps - seffa offers nothing
 
Messages
12,136
Kelly actually looked ok when partnering Norrman a few weeks ago yet struggles when he is the sole half - but then that is why he is a back up.

am i the only one who thinks kelly can improve under foran? think about it what would sandow have shown him apart from a limited number of high risk trick shots and how to mug for the camera

he couldn't teach him anything about game management, counting numbers and building pressure because he doesn't know it himself
 
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Obscene Assassin

First Grade
Messages
6,085
I too would love some classy centers. Who wouldn't ? BUT the flaw in your argument is that we are statistically one of the better attacking teams in the comp.

It's our kicking game and leaking points that lets us down.

http://www.nrl.com/stats/telstrapremiership/clubstatistics/tabid/10254/default.aspx

As long as the forwards establish themselves in the middle (which they have been for most of the year) and the halves do a good job to run set-plays (which Norman has done most of this year and Foran has done in every game bar 1 bad one this year) the backs don't have to be that strong. They just have to listen to and execute what the half wants them to do. For the entire year Taka and Semi have been able to do that and it is no coincidence that Norman is their half. Whereas our right side has been pretty poor and is it coincidence that their halves have been sandow and kelly? When we get a proper half on the right side they should be able to perform better in attack and defence. I hope that our right centre next year is Toutai. He'd work perfectly with Foran.
 

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