Round 17 vs Melbourne

[Old Timer]

Teams have a history of purchasing older players to find that balance. For example, for the 2010 squad we bought Smith @ 29 (30 during the premiership year), Fein @ 29 (30 in the premiership year) and Priddis @ 32 (33 during the premiership year). There is value in doing that - especially when it is recognised that we have players coming through that are anticipated to fill those holes in the future. And before you say "..but Bennett", it's something that all clubs do for a variety of situations.

As I've said in previous posts, if you start filling all the spots with young players you end up with a Newcastle scenario where they languish at the bottom of the table and are constantly in a state of rebuild. Additionally, those players you mentioned - at least some of them have deficiencies as well - Mitchell's defense and ability to read plays is questionable, Hess also had defensive issues that he needs to improve. Yes our players have deficiencies but they are starring in a team that had been leading the comp since the beginning of the year. They are future stars that will improve with time - if you haven't seen the gradual improvement in Dufty's defense, you haven't been watching the games close enough.

The bringing through of players depends on a lot of factors - not just "getting them game time in first grade". For example, I have been lead to believe that Lomax has been struggling mentally with the pressure and they have been working with him to over come that. No point playing him in first grade if his mind isn't in the game. But we don't see that in the games or in the training. We see a young player with potential and then scream for him to be brought through immediately because we've seen a couple of games where he's played well. And then when he isn't we bag the f%%k out of the club and the coaching staff for not preparing them early enough. My point is, we don't have enough information to definitively say they have made the wrong decision.

Additionally different players develop better in different environments. Vaughn and Sims are great examples of players that have thrived in our culture and excelled on the field compared to their previous clubs. Kerr on the other hand may not have bought in to the club culture as well as had been expected and so is not developing as well as we would have liked - it may mean we cut him lose at the end of the contract and look elsewhere.

We may also have bought players to buy time knowing there are contracts expiring at certain times. As TRV has mentioned, you can't approach a player who is legally under contract. However if you know a players contract is due to end in a year or 2, you need to fill that gap with someone until you get a chance to officially approach them. I suspect that is what we have done in a number of roles. Nicholls may be one of those roles. we also don't know what their contract offers are and what sort of money they are being offered in comparison. Take LAM for example - everything points to him going to NZ next year. From what I understand the offers were similar but he wants to be closer to his family - so more than likely it would be difficult to sway his mind. Not something we would have been able to foresee but the club sounds as though they have done everything to keep him here.

There are so many factors to take into consideration that the statement "we buy old guys and aren't developing the young guys" is too simplistic to make a valid argument out of. It will be interesting to see what you find during your player movements research so we can see what other options there were as opposed to Nicholls.

PS - apologies for the wall of text - again.

Al of the players you mention were all well & truly a cut above Nicholls & Latimore.
They were 1st grade quality players and capable of helping win a premiership.
The notion of signing journeymen who cannot win you a premiership and playing them in 1st grade whilst we fail to correctly advance the youth within our ranks still mystifies me.
Latimore for instance is being praised for his contribution each and every week but when push came to shove and he needs to make / be the difference he can’t.
He can perform OK amongst the stars but we never really bother to find out if the youth can do the same thing and maybe bring a bit more to the table.
So what is the value of playing him every week ahead of people who in time with experience may be able to win you a game?
If Lawrie or Sele had if had as much time as Latimore in our 1st grade side this year, then just maybe they may have made the difference last week or maybe next week but Latimore is never going to make the difference on his own despite who or what we play.
In the meantime we ask people who have proved to be really struggling to transition like Luc to play 80 minutes and trust players well past their used by date to play out of position for 70 minutes and then we don’t play the very bloke blocking youth (Latimore) for the extended period.
You can try & justify things as much as you like but our system is well & truly busted and any youth attached to our club is going to really struggle.
For the record if somebody doesn’t sort out Dufty & Aitken re their defense inadequacies they will either prove to be the death of us winning a premiership or they will be consigned to the scrap heap because we failed to get their NRL education completed.
In the meantime people will carry on with diatribe they are young and learning as they go and all the time reinforcing their bad habits because we change nothing to benefit them.

 

[True_Believer]

Al of the players you mention were all well & truly a cut above Nicholls & Latimore.
They were 1st grade quality players and capable of helping win a premiership.
The notion of signing journeymen who cannot win you a premiership and playing them in 1st grade whilst we fail to correctly advance the youth within our ranks still mystifies me.
Latimore for instance is being praised for his contribution each and every week but when push came to shove and he needs to make / be the difference he can’t.
He can perform OK amongst the stars but we never really bother to find out if the youth can do the same thing and maybe bring a bit more to the table.
So what is the value of playing him every week ahead of people who in time with experience may be able to win you a game?
If Lawrie or Sele had if had as much time as Latimore in our 1st grade side this year, then just maybe they may have made the difference last week or maybe next week but Latimore is never going to make the difference on his own despite who or what we play.
In the meantime we ask people who have proved to be really struggling to transition like Luc to play 80 minutes and trust players well past their used by date to play out of position for 70 minutes and then we don’t play the very bloke blocking youth (Latimore) for the extended period.
You can try & justify things as much as you like but our system is well & truly busted and any youth attached to our club is going to really struggle.
For the record if somebody doesn’t sort out Dufty & Aitken re their defense inadequacies they will either prove to be the death of us winning a premiership or they will be consigned to the scrap heap because we failed to get their NRL education completed.
In the meantime people will carry on with diatribe they are young and learning as they go and all the time reinforcing their bad habits because we change nothing to benefit them.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm just pointing out that this "juniors aren't getting a chance" is based solely on them not getting game time without actually knowing the ins and outs of what's going on behind the scenes or why reasons are made. You have to consider the bigger picture and not just make assumption from the narrow view we see.

And like I said in the previous post, if you aren't seeing improvements in Dufty's defense, then I think we are watching different players.

I would also argue that of the players you named, Hunt, Graham and Latimore can all help win a premiership. Nicholls isn't being played in first grade regularly and was only used once given Hunts absence. As a matter of fact, those 3 have helped keep us on the top of the table for the first 16 rounds. Also, the comment "For the record, if somebody doesn't sort out Dufty and Aitken re their defense inadequacies they will either prove to be the death of us winning a premiership or they will be consigned to the scrap heap because we failed to get their NRL education completed" is being a bit dramatic. Dufty's first year in first grade and being a small player he's going to take a while to get his defense right. Not sure you remember Slater but his defense wasn't great when he started. Aitken does have issues over on that side however I believe the problems are much bigger than just him.

How did the player market research pan out?

 

[getsmarty]

Play of the Week: Round 17
Who has your Play of the Week in Round 17, Nene Macdonald or Euan Aitken?

https://www.dragons.com.au/news/2018/07/09/play-of-the-week-round-17/

 

[Old Timer]

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm just pointing out that this "juniors aren't getting a chance" is based solely on them not getting game time without actually knowing the ins and outs of what's going on behind the scenes or why reasons are made. You have to consider the bigger picture and not just make assumption from the narrow view we see.

And like I said in the previous post, if you aren't seeing improvements in Dufty's defense, then I think we are watching different players.

I would also argue that of the players you named, Hunt, Graham and Latimore can all help win a premiership. Nicholls isn't being played in first grade regularly and was only used once given Hunts absence. As a matter of fact, those 3 have helped keep us on the top of the table for the first 16 rounds. Also, the comment "For the record, if somebody doesn't sort out Dufty and Aitken re their defense inadequacies they will either prove to be the death of us winning a premiership or they will be consigned to the scrap heap because we failed to get their NRL education completed" is being a bit dramatic. Dufty's first year in first grade and being a small player he's going to take a while to get his defense right. Not sure you remember Slater but his defense wasn't great when he started. Aitken does have issues over on that side however I believe the problems are much bigger than just him.

How did the player market research pan out?

Haven't had a chance to do the player signing stuff from last year but will get to it in the next few days.
Trouble with getting old is, too much time with Dr's and attending funerals and not enough time for footy.
A couple of points and you need to understand whilst highlighting deficiencies in players I am not trying to say they are bad players, moreover I am being critical of the fact that the coaching staff haven't fixed the problems so we get an even better result from the player.
I stand by my statement that if left unfixed they will not go to the level they need to be at for us to win a premiership.
Aitken

• Not saying he is the only problem on that edge, part of the problem fixed with Nighty gone, however Aitken is still piss poor at defensive reads and gets caught out badly when he takes the wrong option due to the bad read.
• With 2 + seasons under his belt the defence issue is still a bug bear and he is targeted by other teams because of that. One on one is not the issue it is the play that sweeps to his side and his propensity to run in or up out of the line.
• He has got a couple of passes away this year but his instinct is still to tuck it under his arm and that negates the value of a high quality finisher on his outside. He looks very uncoordinated (muscle bound in the legs) and has little suppleness in getting his body into the correct position to pass or offload.

Dufty

• When confronted with a 2 on 1 makes no attempt on either so a try is always going to be the outcome.
• When players are crashing over the line with our players hanging onto them he must make sure he dives in and helps with the wrestle and in games (there are instances where he did get it right but many where he didn't) when that has been required he has stood there with a quizzical look on his face when he could have easily been part of the tackle.
• Letting balls bounce in no mans land is a fatal flaw. Far better to attempt the catch and knock it on then sit back and wait to see where it goes. On occasions he has been very good but on others he has taken the wrong option and with the very best full backs it becomes instinctive to attack the ball every time.

General

• Who are the players that consistently chase hardest to our goal line in defence? I reckon Graham, Frizz, Mann, Widdop so it begs the question what are the others doing? How many times do Lafai, Nene, JDB bother to make that gut busting effort?
• Nighty is merely blocking the career path of players with potential upside.
• Latimore is loved far too much because he has been part of a winning team. The others did the winning and he filled the gaps but when he had his chance to do the winning / leading he was found wanting. I firmly believe that other players with greater potential upside could have done his role as good if not better and we would have still won games and at the same time progressed our youth in 1st grade with inspirational players guiding them and Latimore would have been a greater asset by helping guide the other youngsters in reggies.
• We look to hard at the game day result and not at the bigger picture and that picture can turn very ugly if we get 1 major injury as evidenced in the last 15 minutes against the Storm. We simply have not got enough 1st grade game time under the belts of the younger players and the older players are not going to cover those gaps.

Re your comment re Dufty's defence I agree we must be watching different games because you seem to think there has been some major improvement and IMO that is not the case and it has been hidden due to the lack of injuries to the starting side and the fact that we have been winning games.
Have a close look at the games we lost and analyse Dufty's defence in those games and you will see a recurrence of the same mistakes.
IMO all are very fixable but I doubt we have the staff to actually fix it as I still think Mc Fookknuckle is a very average coach and that Young is a pathetic defensive coach.

 

[True_Believer]

Haven't had a chance to do the player signing stuff from last year but will get to it in the next few days.
Trouble with getting old is, too much time with Dr's and attending funerals and not enough time for footy.
A couple of points and you need to understand whilst highlighting deficiencies in players I am not trying to say they are bad players, moreover I am being critical of the fact that the coaching staff haven't fixed the problems so we get an even better result from the player.
I stand by my statement that if left unfixed they will not go to the level they need to be at for us to win a premiership.
Aitken

• Not saying he is the only problem on that edge, part of the problem fixed with Nighty gone, however Aitken is still piss poor at defensive reads and gets caught out badly when he takes the wrong option due to the bad read.
• With 2 + seasons under his belt the defence issue is still a bug bear and he is targeted by other teams because of that. One on one is not the issue it is the play that sweeps to his side and his propensity to run in or up out of the line.
• He has got a couple of passes away this year but his instinct is still to tuck it under his arm and that negates the value of a high quality finisher on his outside. He looks very uncoordinated (muscle bound in the legs) and has little suppleness in getting his body into the correct position to pass or offload.

Dufty

• When confronted with a 2 on 1 makes no attempt on either so a try is always going to be the outcome.
• When players are crashing over the line with our players hanging onto them he must make sure he dives in and helps with the wrestle and in games (there are instances where he did get it right but many where he didn't) when that has been required he has stood there with a quizzical look on his face when he could have easily been part of the tackle.
• Letting balls bounce in no mans land is a fatal flaw. Far better to attempt the catch and knock it on then sit back and wait to see where it goes. On occasions he has been very good but on others he has taken the wrong option and with the very best full backs it becomes instinctive to attack the ball every time.

General

• Who are the players that consistently chase hardest to our goal line in defence? I reckon Graham, Frizz, Mann, Widdop so it begs the question what are the others doing? How many times do Lafai, Nene, JDB bother to make that gut busting effort?
• Nighty is merely blocking the career path of players with potential upside.
• Latimore is loved far too much because he has been part of a winning team. The others did the winning and he filled the gaps but when he had his chance to do the winning / leading he was found wanting. I firmly believe that other players with greater potential upside could have done his role as good if not better and we would have still won games and at the same time progressed our youth in 1st grade with inspirational players guiding them and Latimore would have been a greater asset by helping guide the other youngsters in reggies.
• We look to hard at the game day result and not at the bigger picture and that picture can turn very ugly if we get 1 major injury as evidenced in the last 15 minutes against the Storm. We simply have not got enough 1st grade game time under the belts of the younger players and the older players are not going to cover those gaps.

Re your comment re Dufty's defence I agree we must be watching different games because you seem to think there has been some major improvement and IMO that is not the case and it has been hidden due to the lack of injuries to the starting side and the fact that we have been winning games.
Have a close look at the games we lost and analyse Dufty's defence in those games and you will see a recurrence of the same mistakes.
IMO all are very fixable but I doubt we have the staff to actually fix it as I still think Mc Fookknuckle is a very average coach and that Young is a pathetic defensive coach.

1. Aitken. Valid points. However I believe the problems are a combination of Frizz, Hunt, Aitken and Nighty. Nighty has been removed but they are still scoring tries down that side. That whole edge needs tightening up and I think you'll see improvement in how each of those players perform.

2. Dufty. Never said there was major improvement but I said there was improvement. Early in the season he wasn't even attempting tackles on the line but he has been over the last 4-8 weeks and has saved tries with his strength, and even tackled players over the sideline. He's making progress. You may not be as patient as I am but I can see improvement - especially in his confidence to make those tackles. Yes there is still work to do but I am confident he will get better with time. It's not something you are going to turn around in a month.

3. I think we'll just have to disagree with Lats. I think he's contributed significantly to the team through this period - and not just because he was with the "senior players". I don't think he was found wanting last game - he actually received a HIA and was required to return after half time (which I think was incorrectly adjudicated) but still put in 44 minutes off the bench. Yes he makes mistakes, but so has just about everyone on the field. Every player has at least once copped a pasting on this forum for something they've done or not done in a game. It's unrealistic to think that players are going to play a perfect game every game.

4. There are improvements to be made with the team and players no doubt. I'm not denying that. Have also suggested that we could do better in the coaching department. However, I'm also not the sort of person that can confidently say that "the coach isn't doing this" or "this player is crap" when I'm not in their position or don't have all the facts (Unfortunately most likely as a result of what I do for a living). I can assume stuff like everyone else but you know how that saying goes...

 

[Carlton]

Haven't had a chance to do the player signing stuff from last year but will get to it in the next few days.
Trouble with getting old is, too much time with Dr's and attending funerals and not enough time for footy.
A couple of points and you need to understand whilst highlighting deficiencies in players I am not trying to say they are bad players, moreover I am being critical of the fact that the coaching staff haven't fixed the problems so we get an even better result from the player.
I stand by my statement that if left unfixed they will not go to the level they need to be at for us to win a premiership.
Aitken

• Not saying he is the only problem on that edge, part of the problem fixed with Nighty gone, however Aitken is still piss poor at defensive reads and gets caught out badly when he takes the wrong option due to the bad read.
• With 2 + seasons under his belt the defence issue is still a bug bear and he is targeted by other teams because of that. One on one is not the issue it is the play that sweeps to his side and his propensity to run in or up out of the line.
• He has got a couple of passes away this year but his instinct is still to tuck it under his arm and that negates the value of a high quality finisher on his outside. He looks very uncoordinated (muscle bound in the legs) and has little suppleness in getting his body into the correct position to pass or offload.

Dufty

• When confronted with a 2 on 1 makes no attempt on either so a try is always going to be the outcome.
• When players are crashing over the line with our players hanging onto them he must make sure he dives in and helps with the wrestle and in games (there are instances where he did get it right but many where he didn't) when that has been required he has stood there with a quizzical look on his face when he could have easily been part of the tackle.
• Letting balls bounce in no mans land is a fatal flaw. Far better to attempt the catch and knock it on then sit back and wait to see where it goes. On occasions he has been very good but on others he has taken the wrong option and with the very best full backs it becomes instinctive to attack the ball every time.

General

• Who are the players that consistently chase hardest to our goal line in defence? I reckon Graham, Frizz, Mann, Widdop so it begs the question what are the others doing? How many times do Lafai, Nene, JDB bother to make that gut busting effort?
• Nighty is merely blocking the career path of players with potential upside.
• Latimore is loved far too much because he has been part of a winning team. The others did the winning and he filled the gaps but when he had his chance to do the winning / leading he was found wanting. I firmly believe that other players with greater potential upside could have done his role as good if not better and we would have still won games and at the same time progressed our youth in 1st grade with inspirational players guiding them and Latimore would have been a greater asset by helping guide the other youngsters in reggies.
• We look to hard at the game day result and not at the bigger picture and that picture can turn very ugly if we get 1 major injury as evidenced in the last 15 minutes against the Storm. We simply have not got enough 1st grade game time under the belts of the younger players and the older players are not going to cover those gaps.

Re your comment re Dufty's defence I agree we must be watching different games because you seem to think there has been some major improvement and IMO that is not the case and it has been hidden due to the lack of injuries to the starting side and the fact that we have been winning games.
Have a close look at the games we lost and analyse Dufty's defence in those games and you will see a recurrence of the same mistakes.
IMO all are very fixable but I doubt we have the staff to actually fix it as I still think Mc Fookknuckle is a very average coach and that Young is a pathetic defensive coach.

I agree almost 100% with your player assessment, the only one I thought was a bit harsh was Latimore. He is not a top line starting prop but he has done a pretty good job in the rotation and is playing above his price. He is one of the players however, that should be on the list to be upgraded.

What I find a worry is when people roll the argument "he's young he will improve and his problems will disappear". The reality is the majority of players do not overcome their deficiencies and never go on with it. It doesn't make sense to make excuses for player shortcomings and talk about something that might or might not happen in the future to change things. An objective assessment of how things are at the moment is needed, only then is there any chance of issues being addressed.

 

[2010]

Dufty has looked good in some games. The tackle on Thompson where they held up was great.
Against the Storm he was not good at all. He didn't make any attempt, but then there was two players coming through so it was always going to be a try.
I thought that before this game I thought he had improved with the bombs.
He needs to cut out watching the bomb hitting the ground. That needs to be addressed and coached out of him.
I think the problem with the game that our forwards were buggered and normally they would have stopped their players before they reached him.
There were a number of factors that went against us beyond our control, we need to put that game behind us and move on.