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Moeen Ali claiming he was racially abused by Australian player.

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
I gave you the method by which Ali could obtain the benefit of the defence of truth to a defamation suit. He would not be liable if he named the person and state that the person had denied it.

Bollocks. As a qualified lawyer, that isn't the case. If the plaintiff suffers loss as a result of the allegation, then defamation is on the cards if Ali as a defendant identifies the player. At best you're in the murkier waters of honest opinion.


As for truth - it is a defence to defamation and defending what was said! For example: Is Ali Osama? If true - that player who said that cannot be sued for defamation for what they said.

Q???? Are the words defamatory? Was it about the plaintiff? Was it published? That is the cause of action!


Defences: truth, honest opinion or absolute privilege (saying shit in parliament), qualified privilege (journos)

Alternatively, is a player racist? - prove what they said, and that it was published - that is Ali's problem without witnesses. That is why he faces a loser if he identifies. Sad but true.

It’s not on the person who allegedly said it because he isn’t identified and it was three years ago. These allegations come out of the blue coincidently with the publication of his book.

No. The allegations were raised three years ago by Ali as confirmed by Bayliss. Try to keep up.
 
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ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
I hate racism with a passion. Have had it done to me. Have seen it happen

Needs to be actioned straight away in my opinion. Poor form on Ali for not doing so

Please - if everyone who suffered racism complained about every instance of it - they'd have no time left to live.
Thank you. Done deal

I stop. SO YOU STOP

I am happy to stop as soon as people get the logical point that the 3 years don't mean nothing against Ali's credibility. ;)
 

TheParraboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
66,142
Please - if everyone who suffered racism complained about every instance of it - they'd have no time left to live.

Please

Talking about profile people particularly sportspeople that can and do make a difference
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Please

Talking about profile people particularly sportspeople that can and do make a difference

You speak like racism has never entered the world of sportspeople before. Surely you jest?

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=r...i61l2j35i39.2966j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Parra, you say you have been a victim of racism - have you reported EVERY SINGLE INCIDENT to the authorities?

Even if so; have you then ever had the authorities not take an interest in your complaint? Many people have. That's not just suffering an act of racism - but institutional systemic racism. Think it hasn't happened???

That's why many lose the caring enough to follow through with complaints. Many people will not understand this. But many will appreciate the reality.

I agree with you that racism is wrong, but I understand many just going "this is too consuming for me to fight this particular instance".

I can recall appalling institutional racism - not even against me but simply the perpetrators - like police only prepared to act to a certain crime against property in NZ if the perpetrators were Maori. Like anyone else was playing a joke, but Maori were committing a crime.

It is what it is.
 
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_snafu_

Immortal
Messages
35,707
Bollocks. As a qualified lawyer, that isn't the case. If the plaintiff suffers loss as a result of the allegation, then defamation is on the cards if Ali as a defendant identifies the player. At best you're in the murkier waters of honest opinion.

Well, as I said, it would depend on how he publishes what is alleged to have been said and identifies the person.

If Ali says “Joe Bloggs called me Osama” then the defamatory imputation is that the person who said it is racist. It is problematic to Ali because the player who is alleged to have said it denies saying it.

If Ali said “I accused Joe Bloggs with him calling me Osama, I reported the incident and he denied it”, then this is correct (ie true). The statement is still defamatory, but it would be defended on the basis that the report is true. That is, Ali alleges that Bloggs called him Osama, but Bloggs denies it. At the very least there would be the benefit of contextual truth.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Well, as I said, it would depend on how he publishes what is alleged to have been said and identifies the person.

No. If he identifies - he is liable. Unless you want to claim being labelled a racist isn't defamatory. Is that your claim?

If Ali says “Joe Bloggs called me Osama” then the defamatory imputation is that the person who said it is racist. It is problematic to Ali because the player who is alleged to have said it denies saying it.

Well yeah - its a huge defamation claim problem for Ali.

If Ali said “I accused Joe Bloggs with him calling me Osama, I reported the incident and he denied it”, then this is correct (ie true). The statement is still defamatory, but it would be defended on the basis that the report is true. That is, Ali alleges that Bloggs called him Osama, but Bloggs denies it. At the very least there would be the benefit of contextual truth.
There is no benefit of truth. It is balance of probablities. Ali alleges it. Player X denies it and brings case. Jury determines. Balance of probabilities. Even if said, did he identify the right person of the XI on the field who said it?
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
wtf that just lame

jest?

Im done with you champ

Guess its easier to accept Moeen is lying after 3 years than in fact he heard an Australian cricketer said it, right?

It is a go nowhere. But if Moeen did complain about it three years ago, why is the Australian cricketer not coming forward to deny it now as he did then?

Are Bayliss and Moeen both lying? Or is the Aussie cricketer hiding? It has been three years, why doesn't the Aussie cricketer come forward?

See how the three years goes both ways?

End of the day - the 3 year factor is not a factor.

Ali reported it at the time. Bayliss confirms this.

Players X and Lehmann are still silent. Why?

Would I find any Australian cricketer guilty on the above? No.

But do I think Moeen is lying? No.
 

_snafu_

Immortal
Messages
35,707
I don’t claim being racist is not defamatory.

In Australia defamation laws requires the ordinary reader to consider the whole of the publication. Hence, why any publication must be a report of exactly what actually happened (including, importantly, the fact that it was denied).

Media do this all the time when they fly close to the wind regarding reporting news items. Always put both sides of the story.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
I don’t claim being racist is not defamatory.

In Australia defamation laws requires the ordinary reader to consider the whole of the publication. Hence, why any publication must be a report of exactly what actually happened (including, importantly, the fact that it was denied).

Media do this all the time when they fly close to the wind regarding reporting news items. Always put both sides of the story.

Ali said it in England - Australia media have their own cross to bear for republication in Aus. Journos have qualified privilege as I said above. Responsible journalism as you identify will discharge this, it is the goal of the law for the occasion.

Fortunately for you, defamation is largely the same in Can, Sing, HK, NZ, Eng and Aus.

That said, if Ali identifies - he faces liability. If the player X identifies himself, Ali faces no liability.

Facts are facts. Law is law. This is not a media issue. My media gripe is when they ignore innocent till proven guilty (which many journos everywhere do far too much for my liking - but they want to sell papers).
 
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ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Snafu - if you have an appreciation of the law, I am currently researching the limits of reasonable expectations in contract law (or law of obligations wider). From the transfer of a liberty right as a claim right at the estate level private law in a Hohfield analysis, to possible contrib claims for mis-rep in a law of obligations :) (this has not occurred yet beyond being overruled at post first instance level).

It is far more interesting, conceptual and technical than defamation in tort :) If you have thoughts on the issues of reasonable expectations, - let me know :) I have beaten all circular reasoning bar Fuller and Perdue claims. Their's is unavoidably true, ergo the judge is the reasonable man. Unavoidable truth, no matter how normative people want to be.

Should an expectation derived under contract rep result in cost of the cure where not necessarily reasonable to rely, but a reasonable expectation as a result of contract law nevertheless simply because it was binding?

Tricky huh? ;) All contract law previously deems it reasonable reliance if reasonably (subjectively) induced - but is it? ;)
 
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Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
99,436
I hate racism with a passion. Have had it done to me. Have seen it happen

Needs to be actioned straight away in my opinion. Poor form on Ali for not doing so

Agreed, 100%

High profile sportsmen influence kids playing the game at all levels. Moeen is a role model for Islamic English kids in the game, for one. No doubt he also had a bit of a cult following over there. If the allegations are true, even in his own mind, he should have taken it further at the time, and I would fully support and hope for a long ban for whomever made the comment.

Just another demonstration of weak character, I suppose. He had a great chance to stand up and he didn't.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Agreed, 100%

High profile sportsmen influence kids playing the game at all levels. Moeen is a role model for Islamic English kids in the game, for one. No doubt he also had a bit of a cult following over there. If the allegations are true, even in his own mind, he should have taken it further at the time, and I would fully support and hope for a long ban for whomever made the comment.

Just another demonstration of weak character, I suppose. He had a great chance to stand up and he didn't.
He took it to he coach, who took it to opposing coach, who took it to the player who denied it.

What more do you want?

Player X denied it!

What more do you expect from Ali?

This is the dichotomy. Anything said against Ali is basically said against the player X for not stepping forward also.

Simply Put: Why is the Aussie player of strong character not stepping forward to deny the allegations? Is he of weak character too?

Same coin - two sides....
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
shutup, you're boring
Your best post, ever.

The way you dealt with the substance of the issue - astounding. The way you analysed the nuances - impressive.

Nobel prize winning post if ever.

Were you the match referee that Ali didn't complain to? #just asking ;)
 

mozza91

Coach
Messages
12,674
This bloke reminds me of every essay I did in high school and Uni. Paragraph after paragraph without making a single valid point.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
This bloke reminds me of every essay I did in high school and Uni. Paragraph after paragraph without making a single valid point.
Here's the abridged version for you high School Boy:

Ali complains in private to coaches 3 years ago but not in public media : didn't happen and credibility in doubt for waiting three years

Player X denies it 3 years ago in private but not prepared to step forward today in public to deny it : credibility in tact.

Yeahhh - its that simple. Taste it.
 

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