The Importance of a Top Line Coach

[BennyV]

So their view means nothing. Classic. Just the sort of bigoted response I would expect from you.

Wow, 1 post into a disagreement and you’re already crying bigotry!! Very classy!

But to answer your question, the comments of players about their views on club personnel in a club press release should be taken with more than a grain of salt! Multiple players (Merrin and Mike Cooper spring to mind) have given glowing reviews of their coaches, development and systems while employed by the club, then as soon as they leave they comment on things like restrictive style of play, lack of basic skills development and so on.

So to use that as a basis for glorifying our coaches is a weak argument.

 

[LINESPEED]

Saints would not have won the comp in 2010 if they did not have a top line coach. Pretty simple, get a quality coach and your chances of winning a comp increase drastically. Get an average coach and your chances to win a comp drop significantly.

A really simple equation that management just don’t get

 

[True_Believer]

But why wasn't Kerr ready? Was it that he does not possess natural talent or was it that he was not properly prepared by our coaching staff?

Or was it some other reason unrelated? I'm not going to go into details about it.

 

[Water11]

Wow, 1 post into a disagreement and you’re already crying bigotry!! Very classy!

But to answer your question, the comments of players about their views on club personnel in a club press release should be taken with more than a grain of salt! Multiple players (Merrin and Mike Cooper spring to mind) have given glowing reviews of their coaches, development and systems while employed by the club, then as soon as they leave they comment on things like restrictive style of play, lack of basic skills development and so on.

So to use that as a basis for glorifying our coaches is a weak argument.

Ha. I think he mis spelt his username. He forgot the m and p and replaced those with the e.

 

[giboz71]

But why wasn't Kerr ready? Was it that he does not possess natural talent or was it that he was not properly prepared by our coaching staff?

Probably a bit of both.

His little cameo in the Souths game shows there are still elements of his game that need tightening up. He's only 23 which is a baby for a prop. If he keeps working hard, he will get his chance, even this year given our injuries.

If he had progressed a little bit better, he'd be ahead of Latimore, but at this stage, he's not quire there yet.

 

[True_Believer]

Wow, 1 post into a disagreement and you’re already crying bigotry!! Very classy!

But to answer your question, the comments of players about their views on club personnel in a club press release should be taken with more than a grain of salt! Multiple players (Merrin and Mike Cooper spring to mind) have given glowing reviews of their coaches, development and systems while employed by the club, then as soon as they leave they comment on things like restrictive style of play, lack of basic skills development and so on.

So to use that as a basis for glorifying our coaches is a weak argument.

I wasn't glorifying our coaches at all. I'm suggesting that you can't lump every player into the same basket like everyone does - including yourself. The basis of calling for players to come into first grade is always just based on what we see - and I don't believe that forms the complete picture of what is going on in the background. And I believe Host is sincere and genuine about his situation.

Look I agree that based solely on what we've seen, Lomax should be given a shot in place of Aitken - poor decisions made by the coaching staff. But I wouldn't have been giving Host opportunities over Frizz, Sims or any of the second row over the past couple of years - especially given they are all quality and 80 minute players. He's come along in leaps and bounds and I'm glad he's had his opportunity and is making a real impression.

There's more to it than just playing well in ISP and then getting thrown into NRL.

 

[True_Believer]

Ha. I think he mis spelt his username. He forgot the m and p and replaced those with the u and e.

And you forgot the nk and replaced it with t. Not that your attempt at humour makes sense anyway.

 

[Water11]

And you forgot the nk and replaced it with t. Not that your attempt at humour makes sense anyway.

Yeah. I stuffed it up but it’s now fixed.

Make mcidiot great again.

 

[LINESPEED]

Lets not argue over previous years because the simple fact is he is actually ready right now and if not should not have been extended.
He had a tiny taste of 1st grade, did a couple of good things, made a couple of mistakes but is thrown back to the CC as a consequence.
In the mean time K Sims gets a gig and continues to give away stupid penalties and make dumb plays.
Aitken continues to make the same mistakes and Lomax sits in the wilderness.
We have nervous Nellie coach and youth is not part of his agenda unless he is absolutely forced to and he will be kicking and screaming all the while.
All the really good clubs embrace youth, select youth, place trust in youth and ultimately are rewarded for that.

Confidence is probably the greatest gift a coach can give a young player if he is to perform to his potential.
Waterboy does not impart confidence to anyone - quite the opposite

 

[The Damo]

There are only 3 great coaches in the NRL. Bellamy, Robinson and Bennet. As BennyV stated earlier the general standard of coaching is pretty poor. This is where some arguments break down I think. Mary is not a good enough coach for my liking. But honestly once you exclude the three above the average standard drops so far that he fits in with the generally poor pack. That’s not to say there’s not others above - guys like Maguire, Seibold for example. But there’s plenty others that are at least as bad as Mary, and that’s where the arguments are. Saying that ‘any other club would’ve something something’ is almost always false. You can find plenty of examples of other coaches doing just as much dumb shit.
There’s plenty of fair criticisms to make of Mary, but there’s plenty leveled on here that either don’t stack up, or are at worst about things that most other coaches do as well.
The Host debate for example - he’s a long minute second rower. And he’s been behind 3 better long minute second rowers. So he didn’t get to play in his best position. There’s not a lot of ways around that.

I can already hear the distant cries of ‘acceptance of mediocrity’ coming from the distance, but again - I want a better coach. I also don’t want a worse coach (they do exist coughkearneycoughstuart and until proven otherwise coughhasler) And disputing the merits of a particular criticism does not an apologist make.

 

[True_Believer]

There are only 3 great coaches in the NRL. Bellamy, Robinson and Bennet. As BennyV stated earlier the general standard of coaching is pretty poor. This is where some arguments break down I think. Mary is not a good enough coach for my liking. But honestly once you exclude the three above the average standard drops so far that he fits in with the generally poor pack. That’s not to say there’s not others above - guys like Maguire, Seibold for example. But there’s plenty others that are at least as bad as Mary, and that’s where the arguments are. Saying that ‘any other club would’ve something something’ is almost always false. You can find plenty of examples of other coaches doing just as much dumb shit.
There’s plenty of fair criticisms to make of Mary, but there’s plenty leveled on here that either don’t stack up, or are at worst about things that most other coaches do as well.
The Host debate for example - he’s a long minute second rower. And he’s been behind 3 better long minute second rowers. So he didn’t get to play in his best position. There’s not a lot of ways around that.

I can already hear the distant cries of ‘acceptance of mediocrity’ coming from the distance, but again - I want a better coach. I also don’t want a worse coach (they do exist coughkearneycoughstuart and until proven otherwise coughhasler) And disputing the merits of a particular criticism does not an apologist make.

I might just let you go ahead and take it from here. You articulate it so much better than I do!!!

 

[giboz71]

There are only 3 great coaches in the NRL. Bellamy, Robinson and Bennet. As BennyV stated earlier the general standard of coaching is pretty poor. This is where some arguments break down I think. Mary is not a good enough coach for my liking. But honestly once you exclude the three above the average standard drops so far that he fits in with the generally poor pack. That’s not to say there’s not others above - guys like Maguire, Seibold for example. But there’s plenty others that are at least as bad as Mary, and that’s where the arguments are. Saying that ‘any other club would’ve something something’ is almost always false. You can find plenty of examples of other coaches doing just as much dumb shit.
There’s plenty of fair criticisms to make of Mary, but there’s plenty leveled on here that either don’t stack up, or are at worst about things that most other coaches do as well.
The Host debate for example - he’s a long minute second rower. And he’s been behind 3 better long minute second rowers. So he didn’t get to play in his best position. There’s not a lot of ways around that.

I can already hear the distant cries of ‘acceptance of mediocrity’ coming from the distance, but again - I want a better coach. I also don’t want a worse coach (they do exist coughkearneycoughstuart and until proven otherwise coughhasler) And disputing the merits of a particular criticism does not an apologist make.

Yep. Very well put.

The universal dislike of Mary on this forum has led to the over inflated opinions of other coaches that frankly don't deserve it. Even coaches that have never coached a second of NRL or Super League like Jason Demetriou are given super coach status, all just to have Mary removed

Other than the 3 you mention above, no coach is a sure thing.

Take the Panthers and Tigers game which was a worse cripple fight than our game against the Knights.

If that seriously is the best Cleary and Maguire can serve up, those clubs aren't getting their money's worth. And Siebold is looking more like a myth just like Brad Arthur given the way the Broncos are playing.

 

[R&WTILLIDIE]

Yep. Very well put.

The universal dislike of Mary on this forum has led to the over inflated opinions of other coaches that frankly don't deserve it. Even coaches that have never coached a second of NRL or Super League like Jason Demetriou are given super coach status, all just to have Mary removed

Other than the 3 you mention above, no coach is a sure thing.

Take the Panthers and Tigers game which was a worse cripple fight than our game against the Knights.

If that seriously is the best Cleary and Maguire can serve up, those clubs aren't getting their money's worth. And Siebold is looking more like a myth just like Brad Arthur given the way the Broncos are playing.

I think people just want to see our club take a different direction with a different coach. We've been pretty ordinary and under achieving for the past 8 years. People wanting us to sign Barrett or Toovey is quite funny.

 

[BennyV]

I wasn't glorifying our coaches at all. I'm suggesting that you can't lump every player into the same basket like everyone does - including yourself. The basis of calling for players to come into first grade is always just based on what we see - and I don't believe that forms the complete picture of what is going on in the background. And I believe Host is sincere and genuine about his situation.

Look I agree that based solely on what we've seen, Lomax should be given a shot in place of Aitken - poor decisions made by the coaching staff. But I wouldn't have been giving Host opportunities over Frizz, Sims or any of the second row over the past couple of years - especially given they are all quality and 80 minute players. He's come along in leaps and bounds and I'm glad he's had his opportunity and is making a real impression.

There's more to it than just playing well in ISP and then getting thrown into NRL.

It’s good that you believe Host is sincere and genuine. He seems like a good lad and I don’t believe he lied. But I also don’t believe that Merrin or Cooper lied in their praise of the coaching staff. Just that they were biased and/or misguided. So suggesting that one should take Host’s words with a grin of salt doesn’t mean he lied, just that it may not directly reflect what’s happened to date.

As for being stuck behind Sims/Friz - I agree. But it’s not necessarily about opportunity, it’s about development. He is a long minute edge backrower who runs brilliant lines and is a solid defender. Any tome we’ve seen him, it’s been for short minutes off the bench and often in the middle. Are we working on his ball skills? Footwork? Physical attributes? Hard to say, but I’ve formed an opinion based on what I’ve seen of him and our coaching staffs inability to develop.

 

[BennyV]

There are only 3 great coaches in the NRL. Bellamy, Robinson and Bennet. As BennyV stated earlier the general standard of coaching is pretty poor. This is where some arguments break down I think. Mary is not a good enough coach for my liking. But honestly once you exclude the three above the average standard drops so far that he fits in with the generally poor pack. That’s not to say there’s not others above - guys like Maguire, Seibold for example. But there’s plenty others that are at least as bad as Mary, and that’s where the arguments are. Saying that ‘any other club would’ve something something’ is almost always false. You can find plenty of examples of other coaches doing just as much dumb shit.
There’s plenty of fair criticisms to make of Mary, but there’s plenty leveled on here that either don’t stack up, or are at worst about things that most other coaches do as well.
The Host debate for example - he’s a long minute second rower. And he’s been behind 3 better long minute second rowers. So he didn’t get to play in his best position. There’s not a lot of ways around that.

I can already hear the distant cries of ‘acceptance of mediocrity’ coming from the distance, but again - I want a better coach. I also don’t want a worse coach (they do exist coughkearneycoughstuart and until proven otherwise coughhasler) And disputing the merits of a particular criticism does not an apologist make.

It’s interesting, isn’t it. I definitely don’t buy into the ‘anyone is better than Mary’ but I also don’t buy into the ‘has to be Bennett/Bellamy/Robinson’ crap. I also don’t think that super success in the NRL is essential in order to employ a coach - obviously it’s a measure of success but if you dive into other coaches backgrounds, their strategic knowledge, motivational philosophies, and so on, it’s not hard to recognise a coach with actual potential. It then requires investment - give them the appropriate support staff, education, etc. instead of shoving them with a bunch of ex players and telling them they’re a career coach.

Also, harsh on Hasler. A lean last few years, but for mine that comes down to excessive responsibility for building a roster, which is clearly his weakness. What he did initially with a dog’s roster that was handed to him was brilliant. All the shit about Garrick aside, I’m fully expecting him to rise back up the coaching ranks. His record doesn’t happen by accident.

 

[possm]

There are only 3 great coaches in the NRL. Bellamy, Robinson and Bennet. As BennyV stated earlier the general standard of coaching is pretty poor. This is where some arguments break down I think. Mary is not a good enough coach for my liking. But honestly once you exclude the three above the average standard drops so far that he fits in with the generally poor pack. That’s not to say there’s not others above - guys like Maguire, Seibold for example. But there’s plenty others that are at least as bad as Mary, and that’s where the arguments are. Saying that ‘any other club would’ve something something’ is almost always false. You can find plenty of examples of other coaches doing just as much dumb shit.
There’s plenty of fair criticisms to make of Mary, but there’s plenty leveled on here that either don’t stack up, or are at worst about things that most other coaches do as well.
The Host debate for example - he’s a long minute second rower. And he’s been behind 3 better long minute second rowers. So he didn’t get to play in his best position. There’s not a lot of ways around that.

I can already hear the distant cries of ‘acceptance of mediocrity’ coming from the distance, but again - I want a better coach. I also don’t want a worse coach (they do exist coughkearneycoughstuart and until proven otherwise coughhasler) And disputing the merits of a particular criticism does not an apologist make.

Unlike many current NRL coaches, Mary has achieved nothing in 6 years. People can spin the situation all they like however, this says it all.

 

[Old Timer]

RE Host and people saying this and that the simple equation for me is Latimore has been and remains a block to them (if not Host then someone else) and we don't need to have that block in the system.
Valuable time is being lost by having the plodder in 1st grade. If you shift him to reggies and make him captain then someone gets his spot in 1st grade and you get the added benefit of him playing with the young guys and helping them develop which is exactly what they need most.
If it wasn't Latimore it was going to be Masoe and if it wasn't Masoe it was someone else but it was never give the spot to the up and comer.
If a winger goes down it will likely be Maranta and all the while other clubs just keep producing young kids who can step up and grab opportunities and in the meantime we do anything but that with Lomax.
People can argue about this player or that player as much as they like but the psyche of the coach is there for all to see.

 

[True_Believer]

It’s good that you believe Host is sincere and genuine. He seems like a good lad and I don’t believe he lied. But I also don’t believe that Merrin or Cooper lied in their praise of the coaching staff. Just that they were biased and/or misguided. So suggesting that one should take Host’s words with a grin of salt doesn’t mean he lied, just that it may not directly reflect what’s happened to date.

As for being stuck behind Sims/Friz - I agree. But it’s not necessarily about opportunity, it’s about development. He is a long minute edge backrower who runs brilliant lines and is a solid defender. Any tome we’ve seen him, it’s been for short minutes off the bench and often in the middle. Are we working on his ball skills? Footwork? Physical attributes? Hard to say, but I’ve formed an opinion based on what I’ve seen of him and our coaching staffs inability to develop.

OK re: Host/Merrin statements. It's hard to know what's the truth and what's not - but we can't run with the conspiracy theories every time something gets released from the club.

Based on what you've seen of Host this year so far, would you say he has improved? I personally would say yes. In previous games he seemed to get overpowered and didn't have the impact. So far this year he looks to have improved his go forward and looks to be more of a handful than he had previously, He could easily slot into the pack (and has done to date).

 

[BennyV]

OK re: Host/Merrin statements. It's hard to know what's the truth and what's not - but we can't run with the conspiracy theories every time something gets released from the club.

Based on what you've seen of Host this year so far, would you say he has improved? I personally would say yes. In previous games he seemed to get overpowered and didn't have the impact. So far this year he looks to have improved his go forward and looks to be more of a handful than he had previously, He could easily slot into the pack (and has done to date).

I had that opinion of him 2 years ago, that he could slot onto the edge during SOO or in case of injuries. Instead, he was given minimal (if any) game time or played in the middle. I believe he played decent minutes in 1 game in 2016 and performed well on the edge.
At this stage, the main thing that has improved is his physique. Outside of that, he is playing the same as he was a few years ago. The next few years will show if his skills boost and develop but based on the way all our players come through, I’m not holding my breath.

He’s not a poster boy for club development.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

There are only 3 great coaches in the NRL. Bellamy, Robinson and Bennet. As BennyV stated earlier the general standard of coaching is pretty poor. This is where some arguments break down I think. Mary is not a good enough coach for my liking. But honestly once you exclude the three above the average standard drops so far that he fits in with the generally poor pack. That’s not to say there’s not others above - guys like Maguire, Seibold for example. But there’s plenty others that are at least as bad as Mary, and that’s where the arguments are. Saying that ‘any other club would’ve something something’ is almost always false. You can find plenty of examples of other coaches doing just as much dumb shit.
There’s plenty of fair criticisms to make of Mary, but there’s plenty leveled on here that either don’t stack up, or are at worst about things that most other coaches do as well.
The Host debate for example - he’s a long minute second rower. And he’s been behind 3 better long minute second rowers. So he didn’t get to play in his best position. There’s not a lot of ways around that.

I can already hear the distant cries of ‘acceptance of mediocrity’ coming from the distance, but again - I want a better coach. I also don’t want a worse coach (they do exist coughkearneycoughstuart and until proven otherwise coughhasler) And disputing the merits of a particular criticism does not an apologist make.

You make a good argument but you miss the point regarding coaches and in particular McGregor.
The real issues:
1. His qualifications to coach FG - If you compare McGregor's CV against all the other coaches, he is the least qualified to coach a FG rugby league team let alone St. George which has one of the largest fan bases in the comp.
2. Since McGregor's appointment, the premise that he would "learn on the job" gets skittled every season we fail to progress as a team and a club. Never once have we achieved a top 4 finish let alone win a premiership. 5 years and counting.
3. Apart from Bellamy, Robinson and Bennet you could comfortably add McGuire, Siebold, Hasler, Flanagan (and even his replacement), Cleary and others that offer more to their respective clubs than our bloke does.
When you also consider that our coaching brains trust of Hornby and Young have no other coaching experience, the whole coaching function is questionable and often found wanting.
So let's take the emotional name tags like "Imposter", "mediocrity" and so on out of the discussion.
We simply have a dysfunctional coaching arrangement that was perpetrated by the factions within our club.
That is not good enough in my eyes. We can do much better and we should strive to have the best of the best at our club.