Promotion and Relegation!

[Perth Red]

Would need around $100mill a year in central funding, the money just isn’t there sadly as I think a strong second tier for expansion hopefuls to cut their teeth in would be a good thing.

 

[tri_colours]

You are being naive in my opinion. Wentworthville have never been in the top tier competition. Many people reckoned they should have been admitted in 1967 instead of Penrith as Wentworthville were financial stronger (at the time) than Penrith.

Further a true promotion/relegation system would not have limits on where teams come from. The fact you have even floated one where you "reserve" where certain teams must come from points at the problems others have already identified.

As to second tier, if you think there is great demand amongst the general populace for it to pay for subscriptions, then you are in the minority. If there were enough $ in it, don't you think the ARLC would already have done it? They are always willing to take the $ and run.

Further you might pay for it if your team was relegated, but many would not. I'm basing this on the poor figures they get from those second tier games currently shown on FTA. The evidence does not indicate the demand based on the low ratings.

Well the promotion relegation side I'm proposing does have Limits! Is there some hard and fast rule that I'm missing here?

I don't recall making any point like that - 'reserve' ?. Perhaps you could direct me towards were I stated that.

I know of many friends and relatives who would pay to watch there team each week. There are many people who by Foxtel subscriptions primarily to watch there team each week.
The NRL is currently contained in 1 competition. So up until now there has been no real requirement to distribute there own games.

 

[tri_colours]

Would need around $100mill a year in central funding, the money just isn’t there sadly as I think a strong second tier for expansion hopefuls to cut their teeth in would be a good thing.

Would it have to be an overly strong 2nd tier? the strongest team would only need to be stronger than the weakest team in the top tier.

 

[siv]

The NRL grant rather than the salary cap is where the money issue occurs

Today the money variation is something like $13 mil to NRL clubs and $500k to NSW / QLD Cup teams

Even getting it up to 50% will be a difficult process

 

[tri_colours]

The NRL grant rather than the salary cap is where the money issue occurs

Today the money variation is something like $13 mil to NRL clubs and $500k to NSW / QLD Cup teams

Even getting it up to 50% will be a difficult process

The best match ups shown in prime time a couple of nights a week, the Prom/Rel play off game . I'm pretty sure something like this would attract the interest of the networks.

 

[Captain Apollo]

Well the promotion relegation side I'm proposing does have Limits! Is there some hard and fast rule that I'm missing here?

I don't recall making any point like that - 'reserve' ?. Perhaps you could direct me towards were I stated that.

I know of many friends and relatives who would pay to watch there team each week. There are many people who by Foxtel subscriptions primarily to watch there team each week.
The NRL is currently contained in 1 competition. So up until now there has been no real requirement to distribute there own games.

So you have a hundred thousand odd friends and relatives eh?

Yes I know it sounds snarky, but to make it financially viable that is how many people would be needing to pay/watch it to make any TV network/content provider stump up money for it. A few dozen friends and relatives would not cut it financially at all to make it viable financially for a TV network/content provider to finance it.

Further go an read today's papers about how the NRL will likely take production of TV games "in House" as due to the fragmenting market, TV networks and content providers are unlikely to be going to offer as much money as they currently do for TV rights if they have to also wear the production costs.

Also you ignore that they would need to get a 75% agreement to change the competition structure to go to 12 teams, like you originally proposed. You seriously think all the clubs would vote for 4 of them to be immediately excluded?

You are ignoring financial realties and basing your suppositions on anecdotal evidence at best (e.g. what your friends and relatives think).

 

[tri_colours]

So you have a hundred thousand odd friends and relatives eh?

Yes I know it sounds snarky, but to make it financially viable that is how many people would be needing to pay/watch it to make any TV network/content provider stump up money for it. A few dozen friends and relatives would not cut it financially at all to make it viable financially for a TV network/content provider to finance it.

Further go an read today's papers about how the NRL will likely take production of TV games "in House" as due to the fragmenting market, TV networks and content providers are unlikely to be going to offer as much money as they currently do for TV rights if they have to also wear the production costs.

Also you ignore that they would need to get a 75% agreement to change the competition structure to go to 12 teams, like you originally proposed. You seriously think all the clubs would vote for 4 of them to be immediately excluded?

You are ignoring financial realties and basing your suppositions on anecdotal evidence at best (e.g. what your friends and relatives think).

That was not my point at all, and, judging from your attempt at sarcasm, i am sure that your well aware of that! My point was that there would be plenty of people interested in paying for a system like that if the Networks showed no interest . But judging by how the RL rates and some of the crap that appears on Fox I think there would be interest shown there. And Regardless of what foxtel may say ,they are always after good content.

There is going to be problems no mater what way we go. Clubs have licenses. There not about to fall on there swords. But something has to happen if the game is to go ahead. And what doesn't continue to grow withers and dies.

 

[Captain Apollo]

That was not my point at all, and, judging from your attempt at sarcasm, i am sure that your well aware of that! My point was that there would be plenty of people interested in paying for a system like that if the Networks showed no interest . But judging by how the RL rates and some of the crap that appears on Fox I think there would be interest shown there. And Regardless of what foxtel may say ,they are always after good content.

There is going to be problems no mater what way we go. Clubs have licenses. There not about to fall on there swords. But something has to happen if the game is to go ahead.

It wasn't sarcasm, I was trying to put it seriously without being derogatory. That is why I said "I know it sounds snarky", but I probably could have worded it better on reflection.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

Ciao.

 

[Perth Red]

Not to mention those 50k-100k viewers for this second tier comp would need to be new viewers, not just existing NRL viewers who would also watch. Its why the womens game isnt worth anything despite good audiences, because in reality it isnt attracting any new subscribers.

Most NRL clubs are operating on $25-$30mill budgets. For there to be any chance of a second tier club being competitive if they were promoted they would need to be bringing in at least $15mill, just cant see it.

 

[siv]

There are two ways to get to promotion relegation

1 - Use 18 teams with a QLD Cup / NSW RMC based tier 2 structure

2 - expand to 24 teams and then split the comp in half with 2 pools of 12

But to demote 12 teams in this manner would be a kiss of death

 

[greenBV4]

still not sold on p&r, but had a though to solve the not enough money and nrl reserve players issue:

What if NSW & QLD cup teams had to nominate if they were promotion-eligible or a feeder team? Feeder teams keep the same funding as now and can keep the same players contracted to NRL teams. Promotion eligible teams get a funding increase to offset the fact they cannot field NRL-contracted players?

The highest finishing promotion-eligible team from each state plays off against the lowest ranking NRL club from the respective state

 

[siv]

still not sold on p&r, but had a though to solve the not enough money and nrl reserve players issue:

What if NSW & QLD cup teams had to nominate if they were promotion-eligible or a feeder team? Feeder teams keep the same funding as now and can keep the same players contracted to NRL teams. Promotion eligible teams get a funding increase to offset the fact they cannot field NRL-contracted players?

The highest finishing promotion-eligible team from each state plays off against the lowest ranking NRL club from the respective state

While Norths Wenty Newtown and Mounties would nominate

They have a issue on fielding a team if they are a feeder club using the Top 30+6 players

 

[tri_colours]

Not to mention those 50k-100k viewers for this second tier comp would need to be new viewers, not just existing NRL viewers who would also watch. Its why the womens game isnt worth anything despite good audiences, because in reality it isnt attracting any new subscribers.

Most NRL clubs are operating on $25-$30mill budgets. For there to be any chance of a second tier club being competitive if they were promoted they would need to be bringing in at least $15mill, just cant see it.

If they were promoted they would be on a 13m grant.

If your club was in the 2nd tier and you were relying on matches being streamed by the NRL. A club would only need 25k-30k fans to take out a $10 a month subreption, for a full season and there looking 2.5m- 3m just there. then there's sponsons, backers and in some cases league clubs, etc. And the NRL streaming matches would only be an option if none of the networks were interested. The 2nd tier comp would be separate and exclusive , so you would need to pay extra.

 

[tri_colours]

still not sold on p&r, but had a though to solve the not enough money and nrl reserve players issue:

What if NSW & QLD cup teams had to nominate if they were promotion-eligible or a feeder team? Feeder teams keep the same funding as now and can keep the same players contracted to NRL teams. Promotion eligible teams get a funding increase to offset the fact they cannot field NRL-contracted players?

The highest finishing promotion-eligible team from each state plays off against the lowest ranking NRL club from the respective state

Any player coming off contract or being shopped around could be negotiated with . Any negotiations however would have to be on some sort of proviso basis of that side getting into the top tier. the tier 2 team would be able to offer more money because they would have a lot more room under there cap.

 

[Perth Red]

If they were promoted they would be on a 13m grant.

If your club was in the 2nd tier and you were relying on matches being streamed by the NRL. A club would only need 25k-30k fans to take out a $10 a month subreption, for a full season and there looking 2.5m- 3m just there. then there's sponsons, backers and in some cases league clubs, etc. And the NRL streaming matches would only be an option if none of the networks were interested. The 2nd tier comp would be separate and exclusive , so you would need to pay extra.

but if it’s a 12 team comp that’s only $36mill ish revenue, base case outcome. The comp would cost a heck of a lot more than that if you don’t want a massive gulf in class and club infrastructure between nrl and div 2. The only way p&r could ever work is if the gap between them is small enough that going down doesn’t destroy clubs and going up doesn’t leave the promoted club cannon fodder.

Aleague got a $50mill a year deal from Fox, nrl2 would need at least that but that would mean fox attracting an extra 100k or so subscribers beyond current nrl fan level, just dont see it.

 

[tri_colours]

but if it’s a 12 team comp that’s only $36mill ish revenue, base case outcome. The comp would cost a heck of a lot more than that if you don’t want a massive gulf in class and club infrastructure between nrl and div 2. The only way p&r could ever work is if the gap between them is small enough that going down doesn’t destroy clubs and going up doesn’t leave the promoted club cannon fodder.

Aleague got a $50mill a year deal from Fox, nrl2 would need at least that but that would mean fox attracting an extra 100k or so subscribers beyond current nrl fan level, just dont see it.

Once the top team is promoted to the NRL there then on a $13m grant like all the other top tier clubs. The promoted side would also have a lot more money in its cap for top tier players that they'd had a coffee with during the year.

If the NRL clubs are getting a grant of 13m I think 4m would be plenty for the 2nd tier.
Maybe if the A league is getting 50m the NRL could ask for a bit more.

 

[Perth Red]

Once the top team is promoted to the NRL there then on a $13m grant like all the other top tier clubs. The promoted side would also have a lot more money in its cap for top tier players that they'd had a coffee with during the year.

If the NRL clubs are getting a grant of 13m I think 4m would be plenty for the 2nd tier.
Maybe if the A league is getting 50m the NRL could ask for a bit more.

problem is, as we see in pretty much any comp with p&r, signing decent players when you can only do it after you’ve won promotion is nigh on impossible, if 70% of your promoted squad aren’t good enough for the next level your screwed the following year and it is all out survival. Most teams yo yo up and down is the reality. You end up paying overs for numptys in the hope of staying up, trust me I know my team has been facing this scenario for the last few years!

so why would fox pay $50m or more when it is unlikely to bring in any new subscribers? You really think enough fans of 12 second tier clubs, the ones who aren’t already fox subscribers, are going to cover that sort of investment by fox? It would need at least a 150k new subscribers paying $50 a month to make it worth their while

 

[tri_colours]

problem is, as we see in pretty much any comp with p&r, signing decent players when you can only do it after you’ve won promotion is nigh on impossible, if 70% of your promoted squad aren’t good enough for the next level your screwed the following year and it is all out survival. Most teams yo yo up and down is the reality. You end up paying overs for numptys in the hope of staying up, trust me I know my team has been facing this scenario for the last few years!

so why would fox pay $50m or more when it is unlikely to bring in any new subscribers? You really think enough fans of 12 second tier clubs, the ones who aren’t already fox subscribers, are going to cover that sort of investment by fox? It would need at least a 150k new subscribers paying $50 a month to make it worth their while

Recruiters have chats over coffee with potential sinnings for next year all the time. There is no reason a 2nd tier teams couldn't do this also, only on a proviso basis. " If we make the top division...."

And if they did get into the top tier they would have plenty of room under a salary cap, a cap thats had gone from 3or4m to 13m. Allowing them to buy many of the best players on the market. The NRL has never had any problems in changing a rule particularly if it’s in there best interest

The second tier players wouldn’t be that weak. Most would have already played in the NRL. (The weakest of the top 17) or young up and comers.


So are you saying that Perth/ Western Australia/ Adelaide/ Brisbane Bombers etc wouldn't have fans that would take out subscriptions?

 

[madunit]

I've been thinkig about this, maybe not long enough, a promotion/ relegation system. Seems to works alright in Europe so why not here? This would work on a 'sink or swim basis'. The top tier would be reduced to 12 teams. There grant from the NRL would cover there salary cap (nothing extra). The second tier teams would also receive a grant , they would also have the backing of wealthy league club's ,benefactors and in the case of someone like PNG/Perth/NZ/Fiji/Melbourne etc. Governments would assist .So I cant see how promotion relegation would be to much of a problem.

More teams might be prepared to merge or relocate under a system like this. Only the strongest will survive - sink or swim isn't that what's best for the game?

The lower tear could play mid week, meaning more football on TV - more money. Less games more rep games - more money.

- Thoughts ?

Hate the concept of promotion and relegation. The system has seen a number of English RL teams go into administration, while many never recover from being relegated.

It creates a competition where the focus is not long term, but on short term success, which typically means next to no investment in juniors and a lot of money spent on foreign players.

The English game is a perfect example as to why promotion and relegation is a woeful concept.

Since 1986/87 there have been the following teams win top level Premierships
Wigan
Widnes
St.Helens
Bradford
Leeds

5 different Premiership winning sides in 33 years!

and since Superleague began in 1996, only 4 of those sides have been Premiers.

That's boring.

And of those 5 sides, St.Helens, Wigan and Leeds are still in the top division, while Widnes and Bradford are mid table sides in second division. Bradford having gone into administration several times in the past few years.

And look at their Great Britain side. So devoid of local talent, they've now got Australian born players representing ALL of Great Britain.

I'd much rather have a dedicated reserve grade and third grade competition whereby every NRL club must have a team, either using the same name as the NRL side, or with an affiliation (Like Newtown and Cronulla)

 

[jim_57]

I am absolutely pumped for the day when in 5 years straight the NRL loses NZ, Brisbane, North Queensland, Canberra and Newcastle to relegation and they've been replaced by Newtown, Norths Devils, Mounties, Kalgoorlie & Universities.